The Anatomy of the Signature Fee 1 1

[jcjames]

2 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

 

So far I've tried unsuccessfully twice to get a forum member to apply the same logic to their employment, but I'll ask again - what do you do for a living?  You get paid for your work, what are you responsible for beyond your hours worked for pay?

 

It was a nonsequitor, twice.

But since you insist, I'll address it.

I teach, I educate, I create more-educated students while I work for a college (let's make that analogous to artists creating artwork while working for Marvel).

Although it's purely optional for me, I also get paid extra to teach summer school (like artists get paid extra to attend a con).

Now how about *I* start personally charging students who've already paid their class fees (like fans who've already paid for Con tickets) an extra $5 to attend MY summer classes? And for those who are majoring in an subject that *I* think will earn them a higher salary I'll charge $20, and I'll pocket that cash for myself. 

Students want something from me that *I* think will give them more value and because it's in the summer, it's beyond my normal work, so I can charge them more like artists at a con do to their fans, right? "You want something from me over the summer classes (when I really don't have to be here) - then put your $5 in my jar and take your seat or else just say "hi" and shake my hand and then leave my room because I have a class to teach."

How's that?

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by jcjames

[Glassman10]

I do think whenever a piece is created, the artist is putting it all on the line unless they are really just making product and that happens a lot. The artist bears the constant risk of people saying that the artwork sucks. On the other hand , a real compliment is paid when someone is willing to spend money on something that came out of your head and hands after learning your craft.  I remain flattered when someone buys a piece of my work and I've been at it nearly fifty years. If your work is good and fairly priced, you'll be OK. If not, you have to do something else if you want to eat.

I really admire the crew that turned out this stuff for decade after decade and largely it was the same bunch. You can watch them mature in their craft. Look at AF15, just terrible artwork but it got a lot better. Ditko must have been in his 20's and then early thirties working with Stan Lee on Dr Strange and Spiderman. I adore the early Dr Strange.  You won't see him at those shows.  I think he's about 90 now.

I would recall a time when I was demonstrating ( I blow glass) in public and this guy was watching me and he got more and more agitated as I went on. Finally, I finished the piece and showed it to the crowd watching before putting it away and he just exploded  and running off shouted "I could do that if I only knew how!!"

Indeed. 

Five bucks is not a lot to ask. $400 is narcissistic  

Edited May 30, 2017 by Glassman10
demon spelling

[1Cool]

As was stated earlier - artists use to sign for free since that helped sell their $20 prints or something else they had to sell to people at Cons.  Can this sudden rush for signature fees be traced back to not as many people buying prints or anything from the artist but instead bringing their own stuff to be signed (with much of it being quickly offered up for sale)?

[jcjames]

@Glassman - most people probably can't do what you do even IF they knew how!

Technically, I know how to draw, but it takes more than technical knowledge to create great art. Probably the same with your art too. Same with music, Joe Satriani technically plays exceptionally well, but his music lacks the "soul" like a Jimmie Page or a David Gilmour. I am in awe of great artists in any medium because, technically I could probably learn the skill, but I know I lack the true "art" - or maybe that just comes from years and years of development, maybe, I dunno.

I don't mind paying a little more for their signature, it's my own personal "thank you" to them. 

My whole thing is - they're charging for signatures and pictures simply for the money, a piece of the action because they "think" they see so many fans getting their signature suddenly making $$$ by selling it and that is nowhere near the case. Not even remotely close. So when a Neal Adams implies to me that I can get a better-grade book for him to sign because he probably thinks I want to sell it - that just tells me that he sees me as a $-sign, not as a fan. Mike Zeck kinda implied the same thing to me last year when I brought him a HG Secret Wars #1 ('84) to sign with a CGC witness - he said to me that the #8's would fetch more money. Well I HAVE a HG #8 but I don't want that signed I wanted his 1st SW issue signed.

Again, once they see the CGC laynard, they immediately think I'm there JUST to make money off of them all the time (and they assume that anything they sign WILL make money after all fees and risks are considered, which is nowhere near true).

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by jcjames

[Robot Man]

We have kind of ruined it for our selves. Showing up with stacks of books and a CGC witness doesn't say "thanks, I'm a fan" it says: "I can make some money off this guy". I really can't blame the creator for being a little put off. Some one showing up with one book and an obvious appreciation for the creator is another thing. Goes way back to the dawn of fandom. I have had most every major GA and SA creator (even Stan) sign a book or two for me at no charge. I never approached them with a stack. I treasure those moments.

I love Jim Steranko. First one is free and the rest are $5 or $10. each upfront. I don't know for sure, but I thought I heard, he donates the money to charity. Free picture and he will talk your head off. A true master and gentleman. Most of these current modern guys are flash in the pans. Tales a lot of balls to charge big bucks for a signature. I just walk...

[jcjames]

4 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

We have kind of ruined it for our selves. Showing up with stacks of books and a CGC witness doesn't say "thanks, I'm a fan" it says: "I can make some money off this guy". I really can't blame the creator for being a little put off. Some one showing up with one book and an obvious appreciation for the creator is another thing. Goes way back to the dawn of fandom. I have had most every major GA and SA creator (even Stan) sign a book or two for me at no charge. I never approached them with a stack. I treasure those moments.

I love Jim Steranko. First one is free and the rest are $5 or $10. each upfront. I don't know for sure, but I thought I heard, he donates the money to charity. Free picture and he will talk your head off. A true master and gentleman. Most of these current modern guys are flash in the pans. Tales a lot of balls to charge big bucks for a signature. I just walk...

Absolutely, Steranko is an incredible artist and con guest that really appreciates his fans and spends a lot of time talking with them telling stories and actually getting to know them and giving them advice on a personal level. Top notch Class Act all the way.

And I agree about the folks bringing up stacks and boxes of books. That's just as bad as an artist charging $50 or $100 to take a picture. It's just plain overkill. I have never brought, nor would I ever bring more than three books up to any artist for a signature and usually it's only one or two books. 

I think the only time I had more than three books signed and witnessed was when I used a facilitator and they did a private signing. 

I groan and roll my eyes when I see somebody standing in an artist's line with a stack or a box of books so I can imagine the mindset of the artist himself sitting there with a "fan" getting fifty or a hundred books signed.

[Transplant]

Show me proof that most (non-Adams, Steranko, McFarlane, etc. caliber) are being paid to attend cons.

[Robot Man]

21 minutes ago, Transplant said:

Show me proof that most (non-Adams, Steranko, McFarlane, etc. caliber) are being paid to attend cons.

Doesn't Adams pay for his own booth?

[jcjames]

1 hour ago, Transplant said:

Show me proof that most (non-Adams, Steranko, McFarlane, etc. caliber) are being paid to attend cons.

The small-name new artists are not what I'm talking about because they're probably not screaming hysterically to the whole world about a single fan who didn't pay them because they weren't paying attention to the fan picking up signed books nor are they charging large differential rates for witnessed books nor are they charging $50 for a selfie with a fan.

 

http://www.newsarama.com/20428-comic-cons-creators-cash-money-s-changing-the-convention-experience.html

“I’m also charging appearance fees, and I know many other artists are as well,” Pérez says. “It’s one way of ‘evening the playing field,’ from my point of view, as more requests for appearances have come in. No matter if you’re large or small, you have to pay the appearance fee.”

Just a few years ago, the standard was that a convention would fly and hotel a creator, and slide him a free artist alley table as compensation for a con appearance. Now, pretty much all “name” creators can charge an appearance fee if they wish. Rates typically start at about $500 on the low end, and can quickly rise to $5000 or $10,000 for top-tier talent. Rates as high as $40,000 to $50,000 - Paging Neil Gaiman! - are rare, but not unheard-of.

The highest-end rates, indeed, can put comic talent on a par with Big Moving Pictures people (and even minor TV celebrities). When Lord of the Rings actor Elijah Wood appears at a con, he’s typically paid a guarantee of $40,000 to $50,000 against sales of autographs and photo opportunities (tho’ Frodo Baggins gets first-class air and a hotel suite as well). Things can get higher. If you want a genuine Dr. Who (Matt Smith) or a lady-killer Thor (Chris Hemsworth), the fee can be $100,000, plus perhaps a few Van Halen-esque riders as well.

Many comic creators have a “friends and family” sort of list with a few favorite cons where they don’t ask for an appearance fee. Pérez is quick to point out that Orlando’s MegaCon is right in his back yard, and owner/operator Beth Widera is a friend. He wouldn’t think of asking a fee there. But he also prides himself on putting in the work to earn his fees.

“I look at it like I’ve been hired by the convention,” Pérez says. “As far as I’m concerned, I’m there to do everything I can to make the fan experience as pleasant as possible. So I’m working for that money. One thing I’m particularly proud of is that a convention will usually ask me back for the next year after I’ve only been at the show for a day or two, because of my rapport with the fans. I look at like they want to re-hire me, because I do well with the fans. I want to make sure I’m conducting myself professionally, and I’m worth the extra bucks.”

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by jcjames

[jcjames]

Now, one thing I hadn't considered is whether it's the Con-organizer who is charging the high-$$ fees for pics/sigs of mega-stars or if it's the mega-stars themselves?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I don't have any problem with creators charging for their signatures. You want to charge, go for it. It's your sig. You want to charge $10,000, and someone pays it, good on you.

I have a very serious problem with creators charging different prices for their signatures, based on where they think the signed item might be going. That's greed based on ignorance.

[bababooey]

34 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I don't have any problem with creators charging for their signatures. You want to charge, go for it. It's your sig. You want to charge $10,000, and someone pays it, good on you.

I have a very serious problem with creators charging different prices for their signatures, based on where they think the signed item might be going. That's greed based on ignorance.

It's probably just an assumption based on probability, the nature of the CGC SS program & the yellow label is to certify that the signature was witnessed - someone getting a raw copy signed in person for their own collection shouldn't have to pay the same rate that the facilitator or CGC collector with five copies of a particular book, it's unfortunate that the CGC SS collector gets lumped in with the others but that's the price of building a collection of value & we're all focused on that to some extent.
I'm sure there is some greed on the creators side of things but why do you have a problem with that greed NOT extending to the level of the in-person raw collector getting a book signed by someone he admires?  Your beef isn't with the people on the raw signature side, the problem is with the facilitators & pseudo-facilitators cluttering lines.  You're focused on the economics on the slabbed side of it probably because there is very little to no buyers out there looking for raw signatures on comics.

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by bababooey

[Robot Man]

It's pretty simple. If you don't want to pay, don't. Like everything a signature these days seems to be a product. If you don't like the price of the product take your business elsewhere. Frankly, I can't think of many, if any, living creators that mean enough to me to pay for an autograph any more...

[Glassman10]

probably worth keeping in mind that in 1967 a  very nice AF15 went for around $80.00. Haven't things changed? I don't think anyone really saw this coming.  I noted a "Fritz the Cat"  original cover went not long ago for about $700K. Crumb would be amused. Money just isn't worth what it once was. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Glassman10

[SteppinRazor]

12 hours ago, jcjames said:

It was a nonsequitor, twice.

But since you insist, I'll address it.

I teach, I educate, I create more-educated students while I work for a college (let's make that analogous to artists creating artwork while working for Marvel).

Although it's purely optional for me, I also get paid extra to teach summer school (like artists get paid extra to attend a con).

Now how about *I* start personally charging students who've already paid their class fees (like fans who've already paid for Con tickets) an extra $5 to attend MY summer classes? And for those who are majoring in an subject that *I* think will earn them a higher salary I'll charge $20, and I'll pocket that cash for myself. 

Students want something from me that *I* think will give them more value and because it's in the summer, it's beyond my normal work, so I can charge them more like artists at a con do to their fans, right? "You want something from me over the summer classes (when I really don't have to be here) - then put your $5 in my jar and take your seat or else just say "hi" and shake my hand and then leave my room because I have a class to teach."

How's that?

 

Ok, so as an educator, you make knowledge available to students, for which you earn a salary.  You aren't further beholden to students.  You don't owe them teaching at any other occasion except when you are paid by the college to teach at designated times.

Summer school however is not analogous to a con, because you are still paid by your employer.  A more fitting analogy would be if you were invited to a conference to speak on the subject that you teach.  It is your own time, for which the college is not compensating you (as a con is for an artist).  At that point, you can choose to fly to the conference, stay at a hotel, and lecture for free, or you can ask that the conference organizers pay for your stay.

When you get there, you can give your lecture and depart.  If someone asks for more from you, it is up to you whether to give that for free.  No one should expect or demand that you will give more than your lecture, which you have either been paid to give or chose to spend your own money to get there and deliver it.

Edited May 31, 2017 by SteppinRazor

[SteppinRazor]

3 hours ago, jcjames said:

Now, one thing I hadn't considered is whether it's the Con-organizer who is charging the high-$$ fees for pics/sigs of mega-stars or if it's the mega-stars themselves?

 

I would assume that whoever collects the fee is getting some portion of it.

[Mercury Man]

Artists/Celebs have travel expenses, lodging, food, incidentals to pay for when they travel to these shows.   I don't mind offsetting that with $5 or $10 per signature.  Steranko charged me $10 for a signature on a 20x26 poster that I have now framed.  I love it, and gladly paid.  

It's the insane $40-$50 sigs, especially from a actors who didn't make it past season 4 of Walking Dead or Game of Thrones that confuses me.  Strike while the iron is hot, I guess. 

[Sqeggs]

4 hours ago, Robot Man said:

5 hours ago, Transplant said:

Show me proof that most (non-Adams, Steranko, McFarlane, etc. caliber) are being paid to attend cons.

Doesn't Adams pay for his own booth?

That was impression.  He usually takes up a lot of real estate.

[comicwiz]

21 hours ago, tv horror said:

It has gotten to a point for me now to just go up to a person and shake their hand telling them how much I admire their work. I used to collect autographs and have a few legends however with the state of the collectors market they are now being treated as fake? I never intended to ask for them to sign so that I could sell it later, no it was the honour of meeting my idols. The autographs were a bonus but I still have my memories.

This is how it used to be. And how it should have remained.

Autographs are for the most part a shallow and superficial pursuit, but it's the way the value of things has become the focus of collecting that have helped turn it into what it is.

You would hear stories of a fan running into someone at a restaurant, airport or event. They'd chat, tell them how great it was to meet their idol, and they'd be scrambling to get a napkin, ticket or even their hand or arm signed. They'd cherish that item. I know because I see them quite often in collections, and they've been in these collections for decades with no thought to ever sell. Sometimes they managed just a photo, or didn't get anything at all, but the memory is with them for life.

The conventions used to have autograph sheets that people would have filled with signatures, sometimes the artist would draw in a head sketch of the fans favourite character.

Now people are betting on grades, signature placements, and making plans around artist appearances for the sake of making a quick buck. The services even allow people to collect signatures without any need for interaction with the artist.

Sorry, but charging for photos is something that just is lost on me. No idea why anyone would or should have to pay for a photo next to someone they paid admission and waited in line to meet.

Collectors who didn't have a chance to experience it before it became this economy, with show organizers, artists and graders all taking a piece of the action might not see how this aspect of fan culture has really lost it's way.

Edited May 31, 2017 by comicwiz

[tv horror]

Comicwiz here is a quote from another forum I belong to and strange enough it mentions your airport, star autograph and even a plane ticket. I'd like to add what a nice man Sir Roger Moore was in life and he will be missed.

.

I've just seen this anecdote on Facebook and have stolen it to share with you all here. I didn't write it, the piece belongs, I believe, to a Marc Haynes;

 

As an seven year old in about 1983, in the days before First Class Lounges at airports, I was with my grandad in Nice Airport and saw Roger Moore sitting at the departure gate, reading a paper. I told my granddad I'd just seen James Bond and asked if we could go over so I could get his autograph. My grandad had no idea who James Bond or Roger Moore were, so we walked over and he popped me in front of Roger Moore, with the words "my grandson says you're famous. Can you sign this?" 
As charming as you'd expect, Roger asks my name and duly signs the back of my plane ticket, a fulsome note full of best wishes. I'm ecstatic, but as we head back to our seats, I glance down at the signature. It's hard to decipher it but it definitely doesn't say 'James Bond'. My grandad looks at it, half figures out it says 'Roger Moore' - I have absolutely no idea who that is, and my hearts sinks. I tell my grandad he's signed it wrong, that he's put someone else's name - so my grandad heads back to Roger Moore, holding the ticket which he's only just signed.
I remember staying by our seats and my grandad saying "he says you've signed the wrong name. He says your name is James Bond." Roger Moore's face crinkled up with realisation and he beckoned me over. When I was by his knee, he leant over, looked from side to side, raised an eyebrow and in a hushed voice said to me, "I have to sign my name as 'Roger Moore' because otherwise...Blofeld might find out I was here." He asked me not to tell anyone that I'd just seen James Bond, and he thanked me for keeping his secret. I went back to our seats, my nerves absolutely jangling with delight. My grandad asked me if he'd signed 'James Bond.' No, I said. I'd got it wrong. I was working with James Bond now.
Many, many years later, I was working as a scriptwriter on a recording that involved UNICEF, and Roger Moore was doing a piece to camera as an ambassador. He was completely lovely and while the cameramen were setting up, I told him in passing the story of when I met him in Nice Airport. He was happy to hear it, and he had a chuckle and said "Well, I don't remember but I'm glad you got to meet James Bond." So that was lovely.
And then he did something so brilliant. After the filming, he walked past me in the corridor, heading out to his car - but as he got level, he paused, looked both ways, raised an eyebrow and in a hushed voice said, "Of course I remember our meeting in Nice. But I didn't say anything in there, because those cameramen - any one of them could be working for Blofeld."
I was as delighted at 30 as I had been at 7. What a man. What a tremendous man.