WONDER WOMAN 2 directed by Patty Jenkins (11/1/19) 3 3

[@therealsilvermane]

2 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

It's some fair points. Even little Fox's X-Men line was starting to go down this path of worrying less about world-building and more on the individual stories with Deadpool and Logan. And though they could have gone for the continued win with The New Mutants in going full horror/action, they changed course during the transition. Shame!

But with DC and its push to the Multiverse now with that The Flash episode bringing together TV and Movies in only a few minutes...

... DC could really move quickly to work across the Earths. Which is where I think it is going versus only selecting properties that link to one another. And with Joker and Birds of Prey as R-Rated properties, WB was not afraid to take risks. Though with the latter film it led to missing a large portion of the target audience. That it needs to be cautious with its decisions.

I'm just not sure giving the world multiple Flashes before they really truly care about one Flash is a great idea. Everybody loves Spiderman, so a Spiderverse with multiple Spideys is an easier next step. We'll see.

And yeah, WB has taken risks with certain properties, like Joker or Birds of Prey. I think key to that though is taking the risk with the right creative person. Taking a risk for risks sake could prove costly ie Suicide Squad or Birds of Prey. DC needs to bring in filmmakers with a true creative vision for the character and give us something new. Christopher Nolan or Tim Burton's takes on Batman are examples of talented filmmakers giving their own spin on a character that, beyond the cape and cowl, doesn't have a lot of human depth. As I see it, many of DC's major characters just don't have that depth that a lot of Marvel's major characters have. Once you know Bruce Wayne's parents were killed by a mugger and it drove him to seek justice on the criminal element, that's kind of all you need to know about him. That's kind of where his character ends. Peter Parker, on the other hand, has years of soap opera-like personal drama and human problems that Stan Lee and co. imbibed his stories with. And thus, Marvel movies have found success in focusing their stories on the main character and not trying to go much beyond that. Marvel works best when the movies stay at the level of the character drama. DC movies, to me, work better when the movie itself is elevated and aims higher conceptually. For example, Batman Begins' main theme wasn't the story of Batman, it was the idea of fear. Dark Knight's main theme wasn't really the personal drama of Bruce Wayne, it was about the conjunction in life of those three phenomenon of chaos, luck, and order, personified by Joker, Two Face and Batman. Tim Burton's Batman was about duality. I think DC should do more higher level stuff like this. And to do that, you need proven genius filmmakers to give their take on the character while telling a good story. Marvel makes comic book movies. DC should make graphic novel movies. This is how DC can co-exist and also separate itself from Marvel. Because DC trying to replace Marvel isn't going to work.

Edited December 30, 2020 by @therealsilvermane

[@therealsilvermane]

18 minutes ago, Chaos_in_Canada said:

Wow! Nice books! I have my copies of the first two, but never got around to getting my own Hulk 181. I just refuse to pay $5000 for a book. Anyway, we can thank the MCU for these books being worth thousands of dollars and the characters being household names, though Hulk and Wolverine were already household names.

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I'm just not sure giving the world multiple Flashes before they really truly care about one Flash is a great idea. Everybody loves Spiderman, so a Spiderverse with multiple Spideys is an easier next step. We'll see.

And yeah, WB has taken risks with certain properties, like Joker or Birds of Prey. I think key to that though is taking the risk with the right creative person. Taking a risk for risks sake could prove costly ie Suicide Squad or Birds of Prey. DC needs to bring in filmmakers with a true creative vision for the character and give us something new. Christopher Nolan or Tim Burton's takes on Batman are examples of talented filmmakers giving their own spin on a character that, beyond the cape and cowl, doesn't have a lot of human depth. As I see it, many of DC's major characters just don't have that depth that a lot of Marvel's major characters have. Once you know Bruce Wayne's parents were killed by a mugger and it drove him to seek justice on the criminal element, that's kind of all you need to know about him. That's kind of where his character ends. Peter Parker, on the other hand, has years of soap opera-like personal drama and human problems that Stan Lee and co. imbibed his stories with. And thus, Marvel movies have found success in focusing their stories on the main character and not trying to go much beyond that. Marvel works best when the movies stay at the level of the character drama. DC movies, to me, work better when the movie itself is elevated and aims higher conceptually. For example, Batman Begins' main theme wasn't the story of Batman, it was the idea of fear. Dark Knight's main theme wasn't really the personal drama of Bruce Wayne, it was about the conjunction in life of those three phenomenon of chaos, luck, and order, personified by Joker, Two Face and Batman. Tim Burton's Batman was about duality. I think DC should do more higher level stuff like this. And to do that, you need proven genius filmmakers to give their take on the character, not necessarily unproven directors who came from TV. Marvel makes comic book movies. DC should make graphic novel movies. This is how DC can co-exist and also separate itself from Marvel. Because DC trying to replace Marvel isn't going to work.

Like you noted, it is as you see it. Although I also recognize no matter what someone shares in the way of backstories with Barry Allen, Oliver Queen or any other character leading to decades of fandome, your Marvel-focused views will remain consistent. That's a shame as you are missing out on a wider comic book world.

In the right hands, any of these characters can truly blossom. Look at Doom Patrol. Who would have ever thought such an oddball team would become such a massive entertainment TV show hit. And with Harley Quinn conveyed in TV shows and movies the name is widely recognized now. And now with those shows plus Young Justice, Titans and possibly Swamp Thing moving forward on HBO Max the potential gets even larger.

[@therealsilvermane]

2 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Like you noted, it is as you see it. Although I also recognize no matter what someone shares in the way of backstories with Barry Allen, Oliver Queen or any other character leading to decades of fandome, your Marvel-focused views will remain consistent. That's a shame as you are missing out on a wider comic book world.

In the right hands, any of these characters can truly blossom. Look at Doom Patrol. Who would have ever thought such an oddball team would become such a massive entertainment TV show hit. And with Harley Quinn conveyed in TV shows and movies the name is widely recognized now. And now with those shows plus Young Justice, Titans and possibly Swamp Thing moving forward on HBO Max the potential gets even larger.

I think you must think I know only the world of Marvel Comics. I'm quite schooled in DC Comics, actually. In fact, Mike Grell's Green Arrow, Longbow Hunters and his series run, was one of my favorite comics stories as a younger person, probably stemming from a weird early obsession with Robin Hood and archery. I loved Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. While I wasn't as steeped in Flash comics, I'm aware of the importance of the death of Iris Allen to Barry Allen.

I'll use Mike Grell's Green Arrow as an example to my earlier argument. Prior to Longbow Hunters, not much had been done with Oliver Queen since Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams made him an Easy Rider Tom Joad type social activist in GL/GA of the early 70's. Other than that, the character was a little flat. So Grell took the character, gave it a bit of the Frank Miller Dark KNight treatment, and imbued the character with the idea of the Hunter, right down to giving him a traditional longbow, putting him in nature and the nature loving city of Seattle, and having him track his suspects like a hunter does prey. Grell made Green Arrow a metaphor for the hunter (with a little Errol Flynn Robin Hood thrown in) and it was pretty brilliant. I think this is the approach the movies should take as this approach, as I see it, is what made many of those DC characters a little more than just Superfriendsy comic book characters. That is, making a superhero movie with a more metaphorical higher idea angle, like Mike Grell's Green Arrow or Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.

Edited December 30, 2020 by @therealsilvermane

[Chaos_in_Canada]

2 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Wow! Nice books! I have my copies of the first two, but never got around to getting my own Hulk 181. I just refuse to pay $5000 for a book. Anyway, we can thank the MCU for these books being worth thousands of dollars and the characters being household names, though Hulk and Wolverine were already household names.

Sadly, the Top Poster doesn't own CGC comics.

[Bosco685]

27 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I think you must think I know only the world of Marvel Comics. I'm quite schooled in DC Comics, actually. In fact, Mike Grell's Green Arrow, Longbow Hunters and his series run, was one of my favorite comics stories as a younger person, probably stemming from a weird early obsession with Robin Hood and archery. I loved Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. While I wasn't as steeped in Flash comics, I'm aware of the importance of the death of Iris Allen to Barry Allen.

I'll use Mike Grell's Green Arrow as an example to my earlier argument. Prior to Longbow Hunters, not much had been done with Oliver Queen since Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams made him an Easy Rider Tom Joad type social activist in GL/GA of the early 70's. Other than that, the character was a little flat. So Grell took the character, gave it a bit of the Frank Miller Dark KNight treatment, and imbued the character with the idea of the Hunter, right down to giving him a traditional longbow, putting him in nature and the nature loving city of Seattle, and having him track his suspects like a hunter does prey. Grell made Green Arrow a metaphor for the hunter (with a little Errol Flynn Robin Hood thrown in) and it was pretty brilliant. I think this is the approach the movies should take as this approach, as I see it, is what made many of those DC characters a little more than just Superfriendsy comic book characters. That is, making a superhero movie with a more metaphorical higher idea angle, like Mike Grell's Green Arrow or Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.

Did you mean Nora Allen, Barry's mother? Because if you did, I think you may have read the wrong comics when you noted Iris - his wife.

[@therealsilvermane]

22 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Did you mean Nora Allen, Barry's mother? Because if you did, I think you may have read the wrong comics when you noted Iris - his wife.

Whatever, I just know Reverse Flash and Profesor Zoom were always trying to kill somebody close to Barry Allen contributing to the tragedy of the character.

[Bosco685]

2 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Whatever, I just know Reverse Flash and Profesor Zoom were always trying to kill somebody close to Barry Allen contributing to the tragedy of the character.

I love that Mr. Mom movie line: "220 - 221. Whatever it takes!" 

[bentbryan]

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I'll use Mike Grell's Green Arrow as an example to my earlier argument. Prior to Longbow Hunters, not much had been done with Oliver Queen since Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams made him an Easy Rider Tom Joad type social activist in GL/GA of the early 70's. Other than that, the character was a little flat. So Grell took the character, gave it a bit of the Frank Miller Dark KNight treatment, and imbued the character with the idea of the Hunter, right down to giving him a traditional longbow, putting him in nature and the nature loving city of Seattle, and having him track his suspects like a hunter does prey. Grell made Green Arrow a metaphor for the hunter (with a little Errol Flynn Robin Hood thrown in) and it was pretty brilliant. I think this is the approach the movies should take as this approach, as I see it, is what made many of those DC characters a little more than just Superfriendsy comic book characters. That is, making a superhero movie with a more metaphorical higher idea angle, like Mike Grell's Green Arrow or Alan Moore's Swamp Thing.

But on a more serious note...

Swamp Thing ran for 72 episodes on USA Network as one of its most popular shows of its time before comic book properties were a regular small screen occurrence. So the character definitely can achieve solid entertainment levels if used appropriately. And with the DCU show it was strongly influenced by the Alan Moore material, including naming episodes after some of the stories. Hopefully this comes back for more.

Green Arrow ran for eight (8) seasons using influences from not only Long Bow Hunter but also Dennis O'Neil Batman stories along with Marv Wolfman and George Perez. Though the later seasons became too much of the CW soap opera formula to keep comic book fans entertained. But I do so love those first two seasons and parts of Season 3. So I get your point.

[Comicopolis]

From my favourite Flash run.

[Bosco685]

7 minutes ago, Comicopolis said:

From my favourite Flash run.

He was referring to the death of Barry's mom leading to what made him the forensic scientist attempting to solve her murder and his becoming The Flash.

Iris's murder many years later (but before her transfer to a new body) didn't make him The Flash. Right? 

[@therealsilvermane]

58 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

I love that Mr. Mom movie line: "220 - 221. Whatever it takes!" 

[Bosco685]

 

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, @therealsilvermane said:

That was about it. 

[@therealsilvermane]

[Bosco685]

What a way to wrap up a series. 

[@therealsilvermane]

53 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

But on a more serious note...

Swamp Thing ran for 72 episodes on USA Network as one of its most popular shows of its time before comic book properties were a regular small screen occurrence. So the character definitely can achieve solid entertainment levels if used appropriately. And with the DCU show it was strongly influenced by the Alan Moore material, including naming episodes after some of the stories. Hopefully this comes back for more.

Green Arrow ran for eight (8) seasons using influences from not only Long Bow Hunter but also Dennis O'Neil Batman stories along with Marv Wolfman and George Perez. Though the later seasons became too much of the CW soap opera formula to keep comic book fans entertained. But I do so love those first two seasons and parts of Season 3. So I get your point.

I'll admit I haven't seen any of the CW Flash episodes and only the first couple Arrow episodes which I didn't like though I hear the show got much better. The Arrow episodes seemed too much like Batman. Where was the "Green"? I'm currently watching HBO's Watchmen and it's one of the best comic book properties for TV I've ever seen. Even though HBO Watchmen isn't a straight up adaptation of the Moore comic book, this is closer in spirit to the source material than the horrible Snyder movie which looked like Watchmen at least.

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I'll admit I haven't seen any of the CW Flash episodes and only the first couple Arrow episodes which I didn't like though I hear the show got much better. The Arrow episodes seemed too much like Batman. Where was the "Green"? I'm currently watching HBO's Watchmen and it's one of the best comic book properties for TV I've ever seen. Even though HBO Watchmen isn't a straight up adaptation of the Moore comic book, this is closer in spirit to the source material than the horrible Snyder movie which looked like Watchmen at least.

It's a follow-up to the Alan Moore story. So not an actual telling of the original story. But incredible in its delivery and expansion on that world.

As far as 'horrible Snyder movie' again, it's your opinion. To me, I love the Director's Cut and the Ultimate Cut where they joined together the animated Black Freighter story and live content. It sounds like it didn't work for you.

[@therealsilvermane]

5 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

It's a follow-up to the Alan Moore story. So not an actual telling of the original story. But incredible in its delivery and expansion on that world.

As far as 'horrible Snyder movie' again, it's your opinion. To me, I love the Director's Cut and the Ultimate Cut where they joined together the animated Black Freighter story and live content. It sounds like it didn't work for you.

Absolutely not. I love the Watchmen comic book. But Alan Moore was right. It's written to be a comic book, not a movie. Terry Gilliam dropped the project saying it is unfilmable. I was ready to give Snyder's Watchmen a shot as I liked 300. What I got was a slick dumbed down big budget summer action movie that got the costumes right but was the polar opposite of what Alan Moore was doing with the book. It was obvious to me that Zack Snyder lacked the intellectual capacity to properly adapt Watchmen.

The HBO Watchmen has so much better timing as it came on the heels of the trend of super-hero movies and the Black Lives Matter movement, that even as grim as it is, serves that sort of mirror to super-hero pop culture and the times that Alan Moore's work did in the 80's.