How many copies of Captain America #1 known to exist? 0

[SteveMullins]

How many copies of Captain America #1 known to exist?  Wondering how many there are of this book still out there, relative to Action 1 and Tec 27...I'm thinking likely more, since it came out later?

[G.A.tor]

most long time dealers and such would likely estimate 300-500 out there...but it might be higher

Edited August 1, 2017 by G.A.tor

[Sqeggs]

CGC census probably give at least a rough guide to the relative number of copies out there.  First number is blue label, number in parenthesis is total (including green, purple, and yellow labels).

Action 1 -- 40 (68)

Batman 1 -- 99 (241)

Cap 1 -- 75 (155)

Detective 27 -- 31 (65)

Marvel 1 -- 26 (59)

Superman 1 -- 51 (133)

On this basis, Batman 1 would appear to be more common than Cap 1 and both are significantly more common than the other four.

[SteveMullins]

That's terrific information...also kind of depressing that so few likely exist.  Thanks to both of you for going to the trouble!

[rjpb]

3 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

CGC census probably give at least a rough guide to the relative number of copies out there.  First number is blue label, number in parenthesis is total (including green, purple, and yellow labels).

Action 1 -- 40 (68)

Batman 1 -- 99 (241)

Cap 1 -- 75 (155)

Detective 27 -- 31 (65)

Marvel 1 -- 26 (59)

Superman 1 -- 51 (133)

On this basis, Batman 1 would appear to be more common than Cap 1 and both are significantly more common than the other four.

Interesting that there are fewer Marvel #1s  in relation to the others, though not too many behind Tec 27. While extrapolating existing totals is tough from census figures, is it a reasonable assumption, that even counting for duplications due to resubmits, that at this point, with such big dollar books rarely sold raw, there is some relationship between comparative census numbers and extant copies, for example 4 copies of Batman #1 for every issue of Marvel #1?

[telerites]

I know where one doesn't exist and probably never will...

 

my collection   my grail.

[Randall Dowling]

On 8/1/2017 at 8:15 PM, SteveMullins said:

That's terrific information...also kind of depressing that so few likely exist.  Thanks to both of you for going to the trouble!

Actually, it's good news, Steve!  Gator is one of the best authorities on estimating value and availability.  He (and other very knowledgeable dealers) estimate that there are somewhere around 200-300 copies of AC 1 and other mega keys (Gator feel free to correct me if I'm misquoting you).  If you extrapolate that from the census, about 25% of copies are certified.  This makes sense considering the majority of comics are not certified unless someone is planning on selling (and sometimes not even then).

Consider this in the context that back in the 70s and 80s, conventional wisdom among collectors was that many of these books had fewer than 20-30 copies left in existence!  So cheer up, there's probably more copies than you think! 

[Gabe Bruzzi]

I am so lucky to have a copy one every one of those and then some. Then I wake up and realize it was just a wonderful dream! Then I get depressed. Oh well, life is about collecting what you can and doing the best with that! Enjoy life! 

[Robot Man]

On 9/12/2022 at 10:57 AM, Gabe Bruzzi said:

I am so lucky to have a copy one every one of those and then some. Then I wake up and realize it was just a wonderful dream! Then I get depressed. Oh well, life is about collecting what you can and doing the best with that! Enjoy life! 

If you had them all, what would you have to look forward to?

By the way, I know of 3 Cap 1’s raw in private collections. Two of which, are in collections of very old gentlemen who never use the internet or interact with many collectors.

One is my old boss. We had a casual conversation one day and the subject of comic collecting came up. He bought most of his books at NYC cons in the late ‘60’s. Hasn’t looked at them in many decades. He mentioned Cap 1 and said it was a real beat copy. He brought it in to work one day. It sure looked vg to me. He had them in cardboard boxes in his garage. I gave him a bunch of mylars and told him to get them out of his garage. He was shocked when I told him what it was worth. 

[MattTheDuck]

On 9/12/2022 at 6:08 PM, Robot Man said:

If you had them all, what would you have to look forward to?

By the way, I know of 3 Cap 1’s raw in private collections. Two of which, are in collections of very old gentlemen who never use the internet or interact with many collectors.

One is my old boss. We had a casual conversation one day and the subject of comic collecting came up. He bought most of his books at NYC cons in the late ‘60’s. Hasn’t looked at them in many decades. He mentioned Cap 1 and said it was a real beat copy. He brought it in to work one day. It sure looked vg to me. He had them in cardboard boxes in his garage. I gave him a bunch of mylars and told him to get them out of his garage. He was shocked when I told him what it was worth. 

I hope you asked him to give you right of first refusal when he's ready to part with his books.  Man, what a story!

[Robot Man]

On 9/12/2022 at 7:50 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I hope you asked him to give you right of first refusal when he's ready to part with his books.  Man, what a story!

I couldn’t afford them. But I told him I could hook him up with an auction house when he decided to sell.

I did pay him well for his 1963 Gibson SG Standard electric guitar that he also had stored in his garage. 

[sfcityduck]

On 9/12/2022 at 6:08 PM, Robot Man said:

 

By the way, I know of 3 Cap 1’s raw in private collections. Two of which, are in collections of very old gentlemen who never use the internet or interact with many collectors.

 

My view is that longtime dealers like Bedrock are a far far better source of information than CGC because they not only do they have their own firsthand knowledge of raw/non-CGC copies, but they also trade info on the QT with other dealers and collectors who know of books they don't - like Bob's disclosure up above. And the savy ones take notes (which they sometimes reference when they post here). So I think they have good info and records. Even so, I believe that there are really nice comics sitting in collections of below the radar collectors that likely have not seen the light of day since the 50s, 60s or 70s and are largely forgotten. Bob's comment sure seems to reinforce that. And we all know of that there are incredible raw collections in nice grades held by notable collectors like BZ (acquired 60s and 70s), Dentist, and others. 

[lou_fine]

On 9/13/2022 at 11:51 AM, sfcityduck said:

My view is that longtime dealers like Bedrock are a far far better source of information than CGC because they not only do they have their own firsthand knowledge of raw/non-CGC copies, but they also trade info on the QT with other dealers and collectors who know of books they don't - like Bob's disclosure up above. And the savy ones take notes (which they sometimes reference when they post here). So I think they have good info and records.

If you are referring to long time held raw collections from the old school collectors back in the day, I believe one of the top dealers who would know where the books are would be Fishler himself because the word is that he has a mind like a steel trap when it comes to these kinds of things.  

No doubt due in part to the strong liklihood that he was the one responsible in one way or another for acquiring the books for these big collectors back then.  He's probably the best one in terms of knowing where all of the skeletons that we haven't seen for decades are still buried.  

[sfcityduck]

On 9/13/2022 at 8:53 PM, lou_fine said:

  He's probably the best one in terms of knowing where all of the skeletons that we haven't seen for decades are still buried.  

No doubt Fishler knows a lot. But he started collecting after I did and there are guys that were active for a decade or two before either of us. The guys who I think might slip under the radar are the guys active since the 60s - especially those who stopped being that active in the 90s. Guys who were buying from folks like Bruce Hamilton etc. before Fishler had a store.

[Cat-Man_America]

I doubt anyone besides a major dealer who regularly buys and sells GA comics has a good feel for the number of raw copies around.  Nevertheless, I'm in full agreement about the general knowledge of old time collectors, especially if they're still actively involved in the markets and have sufficient connections for that level of outreach.

[pemart1966]

 "Even so, I believe that there are really nice comics sitting in collections of below the radar collectors that likely have not seen the light of day since the 50s, 60s or 70s and are largely forgotten."

The first part of this statement is a fact.  There's a lot of raw stuff out there that's not in circulation and hasn't been for decades.  The point of them being "largely forgotten" I don't think is valid.  They're not forgotten - at least as far as my definition of forgotten goes.

[WolverineX]

On 9/15/2022 at 11:33 AM, pemart1966 said:

 "Even so, I believe that there are really nice comics sitting in collections of below the radar collectors that likely have not seen the light of day since the 50s, 60s or 70s and are largely forgotten."

The first part of this statement is a fact.  There's a lot of raw stuff out there that's not in circulation and hasn't been for decades.  The point of them being "largely forgotten" I don't think is valid.  They're not forgotten - at least as far as my definition of forgotten goes.

With all the crazy climate change issues such as flooding and fires recently , I wouldn't be surprised as a small percentage of books are getting destroyed yearly

[sfcityduck]

On 9/15/2022 at 8:33 AM, pemart1966 said:

 "Even so, I believe that there are really nice comics sitting in collections of below the radar collectors that likely have not seen the light of day since the 50s, 60s or 70s and are largely forgotten."

The first part of this statement is a fact.  There's a lot of raw stuff out there that's not in circulation and hasn't been for decades.  The point of them being "largely forgotten" I don't think is valid.  They're not forgotten - at least as far as my definition of forgotten goes.

Not knowing your definition, I can't disagree.  We all know about books in collections like DAs or the Verzyl family's that are locked up but quite well known. But I'm thinking about guys who were passionate and private collectors before pedigrees were even a thing. It's not like I'm connected and even I know of a raw Top 25 GA comic that would likely top the census if graded that has resided in the same collection since around 1971. It's been locked in a bank box since the 1980s. No one discusses that issue - it is not like DA's books. The owner never traveled in the high paying circles but that's not his best comic. He just collected comics back when the collecting was good and also back when collectors held their acquisitions like cards close to their chests. The comic was purchased at a time when the record price paid for a comic was around $330 (a Marvel 1 sold by Rogofsky in 1968). I don't believe he's the only guy like that. He's bit younger than BZ's age, and BZ was a relatively young collector in the 1960s. Older collectors from that time period are still around. Heck Bill Placzek recently popped up here and gave a good description of what could be done if you started collecting in the 1950s:

Quote

 I started at six in 1956 with  superman & batman. I can telly exactly where I saw and bought that first Justice League in B & B # 28 (Downtown Chicago, Randolph street news stand between State & Clark. As I turned 12 I got on my bike and rode to every resale store and always handed the owner an EXTRA dollar to save any "older" ones for me and then handed them a list. This continued until my father who pumped gas and was a mechanic who fix and reload cars, found a guy with a huge collection. I scoured the A-1 boxscore downtown, and they were basically a used book store that hide the comics from "little" kids with little $. Osfeld's (sp) was another with an even stranger owner who seemed to hate young people also b/c the had little cash...every thing was  $25. (Mistake one...his cat knocked over a pile of magazines and I cleaned them up and saw a Marvel Mystery #1 (but wasn't sure it was really with the painted like cover) but didn't change my mind away from the All-Star #8 I purchase in really nice shape. I never filked in the Marvel Mysteries had the 8-10, and many of the 20's and 30s issues which were really the best of the companies work imo. My DC were pretty much complete to 1952 all the Actions Supermans Detectives World's Finest, and Batmans (and did my a very fine copy of Batman #1 fromJack Whalen in Canton PA, for $40.00 a few days after my dad was shot and killed.) Flash All-American, star spangled, Leading, Comic cavalcades, tons of Fawcett Marvels including nthat Mr. Mind series, the Mack Raboy Capt Marvel Jr.s.the MLJs, and I eventually purges the non superhero books as the doubles of the every silver age super hero books needs space. 

Paints a picture of what may be out there amongst the old guys just sitting on collections.

[pemart1966]

On 9/15/2022 at 12:15 PM, WolverineX said:

With all the crazy climate change issues such as flooding and fires recently , I wouldn't be surprised as a small percentage of books are getting destroyed yearly

Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/15/2022 at 9:15 AM, WolverineX said:

With all the crazy climate change issues such as flooding and fires recently , I wouldn't be surprised as a small percentage of books are getting destroyed yearly

Worse things have happened. One of the California fires wiped out Charles Schulz's home, including irreplaceable original art and other items.