Brittle Pages 3 3

[Eggman]

All - Good afternoon.  I am curious on your opinions re: brittle pages.  Do they bother you?  Will you fully avoid books with this designation?  How does this impact pricing relative to a non-brittle page situation?  Does it depend on the significance or rarity of the book...and if so, how?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Robot Man]

25 minutes ago, szavisca said:

My impression is that most people here treat brittle pages like kryptonite...and would only take something brittle if it were the only copy left on earth...

But maybe someone could start a "show me your brittle beauties" thread or something....

I'm pretty much in that camp. Along with rat chews and mold. Pretty much everything else is a case by case basis. CGC's brittle and mine are often quite different. Dark brown pieces in the bottom of a slab or mylar and I run run away.

[N e r V]

Add rusty staples to my list too.

Brittle is next to breaking up. Tan pages aren't great but at least you are far enough away from the "grave" to control their state enough they could outlast you. As mentioned mold and for me most foxing unless it's really light. Sun bleached and dust shadows as well.

Those are things that either look bad and/or can only get worse in time with less options for you stopping it because the damage is already bad.

I'd say Brittle is at that point of no return.

Edited September 14, 2017 by N e r V

[Knightsofold]

Depends on how brittle, or the book.   I don't usually read GA, so if it's slabbed and there are not lots of fallen chips all over the slab and the cover is great I don't care too much because it's usually cheap!   

If I want to read it then it can't be brittle.

Some of these books have been brittle for 40 years or so.  So it'll be fine if you don't bang it around, handle it and keep in good conditions.

ALL GA books unless dipped in some kind of liquid solution that neutralizes the acid in the pulp (or something like that) will eventually become brittle (but they'll still outlive us).  

Brittle covers are really sad. 

Also, like someone else said, sometime's CGC's brittle is far from it. 

 

 

[N e r V]

9 minutes ago, Knightsofold said:

Depends on how brittle, or the book.   I don't usually read GA, so if it's slabbed and there are not lots of fallen chips all over the slab and the cover is great I don't care too much because it's usually cheap!   

If I want to read it then it can't be brittle.

Some of these books have been brittle for 40 years or so.  So it'll be fine if you don't bang it around, handle it and keep in good conditions.

ALL GA books unless dipped in some kind of liquid solution that neutralizes the acid in the pulp (or something like that) will eventually become brittle (but they'll still outlive us).  

Brittle covers are really sad. 

Also, like someone else said, sometime's CGC's brittle is far from it. 

 

 

My experience with Brittle pages is that they are no longer supple but the paper is now stiff and easily broken off. Obviously there are degrees here but even slightly Brittle to me is something that needs a slab and is not for handling or to much movement just to be safe. A tan paged book at least can be read without constant fear of breakage.

 

So I have to ask based on your last sentence what is the CGC standard for Brittle pages? Lately even the most strict grading dealers I've bought from are being hit with grades about .5 to 1.0 under their numbers when I slab them at CGC so is Brittle pages also something they are stricter on than most?

[comicjack]

Unless the pieces are sitting in the bottom of the slab they don't bother me if the book is rare!

[Chicago Boy]

1 hour ago, comicjack said:

Unless the pieces are sitting in the bottom of the slab they don't bother me if the book is rare!

[Sqeggs]

1 hour ago, N e r V said:

My experience with Brittle pages is that they are no longer supple but the paper is now stiff and easily broken off. Obviously there are degrees here but even slightly Brittle to me is something that needs a slab and is not for handling or to much movement just to be safe. A tan paged book at least can be read without constant fear of breakage.

 

So I have to ask based on your last sentence what is the CGC standard for Brittle pages? Lately even the most strict grading dealers I've bought from are being hit with grades about .5 to 1.0 under their numbers when I slab them at CGC so is Brittle pages also something they are stricter on than most?

I think they need a third category.  The typical CGC "Slightly Brittle" book just has a bit of flaking at the top or bottom of the spine, or, possibly, at one corner.  Not ideal, but the book is usually still readable without doing it any damage.  I've been surprised a number of times to get this designation on books that I hadn't noticed had any brittleness.

But the Brittle designation covers too wide a range, imo.  Some books have significant brittleness along the spine or in another spot but you can still read them without further damage if you are careful.  Other books are literally falling apart and will flake off in your hands even if you're very careful.  I think these last two degrees of brittleness should receive separate designations.  If we can split hairs between CR-OW and OW-W, I think it makes sense to further distinguish between different degrees of brittleness. Maybe introduce a "Moderately Brittle" category. 

[Sqeggs]

4 hours ago, Eggman said:

All - Good afternoon.  I am curious on your opinions re: brittle pages.  Do they bother you?  Will you fully avoid books with this designation?  How does this impact pricing relative to a non-brittle page situation?  Does it depend on the significance or rarity of the book...and if so, how?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

The answer here is clearly:  A lot!

[jabats]

4 hours ago, szavisca said:

My impression is that most people here treat brittle pages like kryptonite...and would only take something brittle if it were the only copy left on earth...

But maybe someone could start a "show me your brittle beauties" thread or something....

It's all about the book in question, and price.

A golden age key with brittle pages ? I'll buy it all day long (if the price is right!!)

... but for some reason I just never buy trimmed books. Makes no sense, but many folks in this hobby are a little OCD right?

[BoomCity]

I steer clear of brittle pages. Now if I knew more details as to the extent then that could change. If one corner of the book was brittle, wouldn't bother me all that much. So I agree, CGC should change the pq designations on brittle. 

From what i understand as well, page colour does not always equate to stiffness. I've seen books with dark pages described as supple. I'd have no issues there. 

[N e r V]

2 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

I think they need a third category.  The typical CGC "Slightly Brittle" book just has a bit of flaking at the top or bottom of the spine, or, possibly, at one corner.  Not ideal, but the book is usually still readable without doing it any damage.  I've been surprised a number of times to get this designation on books that I hadn't noticed had any brittleness.

But the Brittle designation covers too wide a range, imo.  Some books have significant brittleness along the spine or in another spot but you can still read them without further damage if you are careful.  Other books are literally falling apart and will flake off in your hands even if you're very careful.  I think these last two degrees of brittleness should receive separate designations.  If we can split hairs between CR-OW and OW-W, I think it makes sense to further distinguish between different degrees of brittleness. Maybe introduce a "Moderately Brittle" category. 

Slightly Brittle 

Moderately Brittle 

Brittle

Slightly Decomposing 

Decomposing 

Turning to Dust

Dust

At this point CGC could introduce their new urn shaped slabs for your dust remains.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could sell these new terms on the PCH thread at least. 

 

 

 

 

 

[N e r V]

One curious thing (for me at least) is that a number of people say they would make an exception for the right book with Brittle pages (say Action #1, Detective #27, etc.).

My logic on that is you are going to pay a lot of money for a book with a shorter shelf life? In my mind the more money I'm putting out for a book the less likely I'd pay for Brittle pages. That's just me of course.

[rjpb]

A scarce or valuable book with decent eye-appeal will retain more value with brittle pages than a ragged copy that can more easily be found for a reasonable price in better shape.  CGC appears to factor brittleness into grade. A 4.5 -5.0 looking book will probably get a 3.0 grade, more or less.  The  problem is, that if a book is otherwise a 1.0, you can only drop to .5 for brittleness. For these better looking books, they will still sell at a discount to non-brittle copies in the same grade, maybe comparable to a book a couple increments lower.

[Primetime]

For a key GA book or classic cover, I can see more folks looking past brittle pages if the book has decent eye appeal and no paper chips are floating in the slab/Mylar. 

[X_Phile]

13 hours ago, comicjack said:

Unless the pieces are sitting in the bottom of the slab they don't bother me if the book is rare!

+1

[Chicago Boy]

9 hours ago, N e r V said:

One curious thing (for me at least) is that a number of people say they would make an exception for the right book with Brittle pages (say Action #1, Detective #27, etc.).

My logic on that is you are going to pay a lot of money for a book with a shorter shelf life? In my mind the more money I'm putting out for a book the less likely I'd pay for Brittle pages. That's just me of course.

Ive had designated brittle books that are 75 years old plus and they look the same as they did over a decade ago

[badback83]

I used to own a Human Torch #2 (#1) CGC 3.0.  It looked like a 4.0+ otherwise.  It had the "Slightly Brittle" designation.  I found out that most dealers didn't want anything to do with it.  

[Wayne-Tec]

I think one of the biggest issues with brittle pages is a collector's desire to thumb through a raw book. If preservation of condition is important, raw thumbing through pages, even carefully, presents issues. Slight bends and creases, stress on staples, all of these things are possible when thumbing through a comic book, even one with better PQ. Inability to recognize slight stress and damage makes this possible, and when the books remain raw, you're not quantifying handling damage. Who's to say a 4.0 became a 3.5 as a result of regular thumbing?

The lesser the PQ, the greater the risk, so of course, brittle pages are an issue. If slabbed however, they are what they are. Crumbling flakes at the bottom of a slab is unsettling. But if visually, outside of color, the pages look no different than if the label had said OW, I think certain books can still be extremely desirable.

As a collector, what do you value more: condition or content? If it's the former, thumbing through pages goes against the heart of your interest. If it's the latter, you'll probably find more value in a brittle Action #1 than an OW Action #2.

If money were of no object, you'd choose better PQ. But for the best of the best, value and rarity sometimes makes brittle pages one's entry-level. At that point, it's a personal choice based on your preference.

[SuperBird]

Brittle pages are a non-starter for me.