what would you do if you found the mile high collection 10 years ago?

[towards2112]

I'd grow a long ponytail, trade the Vanagon in on a Buick and

become narcistic.

[Ares]

He had to know they were valuable and if he bought them knowing they were worth many time more than he paid for them he could be criminally liable for fraud..

 

 

For example if your bought a painting for $1000 knowing it was worth $1,000,000 then sold it for the million the person you bought it from could sue you for fraud.

 

 

 

 

 

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well didn't the family try uinsucessfully to sue aftwer they found out the books were worth alot more...?

 

Like I said Canadian law slightly different, US law in this case says chuck wins

[shadroch]

I seriously doubt the original Mile High collection was worth anywhere in the vicinity of $10 milion dollars in 1995.

 

I take umbrage with anyone calling the Church heirs racists,especially if you are using a non-disinterested third party as your source.

chuck had taken an awful lot of grief about his purchase of these books by the time he got around to writing these articles.How better to defend his own actions than by destroying any sympathy the Church heirs might be able to gather.

Selling a house in a declining neighborhood is racists?

[That Ron Dude]

I've often thought about that sort of sceneriol. I would buy the comics for a song. Sell them through Heritage and Ebay then give whoever I got them from 1/3 of the profits.

[FFB]

I take umbrage with anyone calling the Church heirs racists,especially if you are using a non-disinterested third party as your source.

chuck had taken an awful lot of grief about his purchase of these books by the time he got around to writing these articles.How better to defend his own actions than by destroying any sympathy the Church heirs might be able to gather.

Selling a house in a declining neighborhood is racists?

 

No, but telling someone you want to sell a house ASAP because the neighborhood is becoming "too Mexican" is racist.

 

If Chuck made that up, then ok, maybe they're not racist. But what are the chances he made that up? It's a strange thing to make up about someone.

[tth2]

I seriously doubt the original Mile High collection was worth anywhere in the vicinity of $10 milion dollars in 1995.

I agree. I pulled out my OS from 1996 last night, and looked at their report on 1995's notable sales. The most expensive sales reported for Church books were the Whiz #2, for $176K, and the Superman #1, for $100K. There were only 2 other sales over $100K, I think (an Action #1 and a Detective #27, can't remember what the grades were). The AT Captain American #1 went for "only" $77K. Obviously OS's reported sales aren't a definitive list, but I think they provide a pretty good benchmark for what BSDs were paying for the best books at the time. And lot of people think the buyer badly overpaid for the Church Whiz #2 at the time, so it might actually represent an extremely high benchmark.

 

But let's go with that trend, and project that someone would've paid the then-astounding prices of $500K for the Church Action #1, $350K for the Church Marvel Comics #1, $200K for the Church Detective #27 (not as expensive because it's not as high grade), $175K for the Church Whiz #2 and $100K for the Church Superman #1. That brings you to $1.32 million, for 5 of the biggest GA books. That same year the SF copy of All-American #16 went for $60K or so, so let's go crazy and assume the Church copy would go for double, so $120K, and assume the Batman #1 goes for $100K. Now you're at about $1.55 mllion. Assume that many of the other keys like More Fun #52 would go in the same range as the AT Cap #1 ($50-75K range), and I think the rest of the collection takes you to about $2.5 million in total at the most. Definitely not higher than $3 million. So higher than my initial estimate earlier in this thread, but nowhere close to $10 million.

[shadroch]

I take umbrage with anyone calling the Church heirs racists,especially if you are using a non-disinterested third party as your source.

chuck had taken an awful lot of grief about his purchase of these books by the time he got around to writing these articles.How better to defend his own actions than by destroying any sympathy the Church heirs might be able to gather.

Selling a house in a declining neighborhood is racists?

 

No, but telling someone you want to sell a house ASAP because the neighborhood is becoming "too Mexican" is racist.

 

If Chuck made that up, then ok, maybe they're not racist. But what are the chances he made that up? It's a strange thing to make up about someone.

 

Any self-respecting Defender of Freedom should have walked away from the deal.

So you seem to be okay taking a throw-away sentence written years after the fact as evidence that the Churchs were racists and got what they deserved? Please tell me I'm mis-interpeting this. Chuck said it. Its a strange thing to make up. Therefore it most likely is true.

[PedigreeMan]

I seriously doubt the original Mile High collection was worth anywhere in the vicinity of $10 milion dollars in 1995.

I agree. I pulled out my OS from 1996 last night, and looked at their report on 1995's notable sales. The most expensive sales reported for Church books were the Whiz #2, for $176K, and the Superman #1, for $100K. There were only 2 other sales over $100K, I think (an Action #1 and a Detective #27, can't remember what the grades were). The AT Captain American #1 went for "only" $77K. Obviously OS's reported sales aren't a definitive list, but I think they provide a pretty good benchmark for what BSDs were paying for the best books at the time. And lot of people think the buyer badly overpaid for the Church Whiz #2 at the time, so it might actually represent an extremely high benchmark.

 

But let's go with that trend, and project that someone would've paid the then-astounding prices of $500K for the Church Action #1, $350K for the Church Marvel Comics #1, $200K for the Church Detective #27 (not as expensive because it's not as high grade), $175K for the Church Whiz #2 and $100K for the Church Superman #1. That brings you to $1.32 million, for 5 of the biggest GA books. That same year the SF copy of All-American #16 went for $60K or so, so let's go crazy and assume the Church copy would go for double, so $120K, and assume the Batman #1 goes for $100K. Now you're at about $1.55 mllion. Assume that many of the other keys like More Fun #52 would go in the same range as the AT Cap #1 ($50-75K range), and I think the rest of the collection takes you to about $2.5 million in total at the most. Definitely not higher than $3 million. So higher than my initial estimate earlier in this thread, but nowhere close to $10 million.

 

Wow, is your Silver Age bias really showing through here, Tim?

 

By your own account, you're already at $3 million for not even ten books. (Incidentally, I think the All American #16 would go for much, much more than $120K back in 1995.) That means you would only have to average $350 per book for the rest of the collection. You would need to sell a ton of $100 books to balance out the four and five figure books -- like most of the DC super hero stuff, and almost all of the Timely stuff, and just about anything pre-1942, and ... ah, you get the picture. Even with the deflated price of Gold in 1995, if you couldn't average $350 a book from the greatest comic collection ever found you didn't deserve to be a comic dealer!

 

Does anyone here truly understand the scope of a 22,000 book collection? That's a -load of books!

[shadroch]

PM,

Recheck your math.Nowhere in the post is he anywhere near $3 million for 10 books. More like $1.5 million.

22,000x$300 =6,600,000

Not that I think even half of that collection would have sold in a flooded market for $300.

I think a more realistic figure,assuming the market conditions and limitations on how and where you would sell them,would be closer to the lower figures being discussed here.Remember,there would be no added value to these books as the Church collection,

[deathlok]

I would buy the books from the Church family and then sell them to Chuck at his prices.

[Artboy99]

Sell them all, take the money I made on the deal and start a porno film making company. Make alot more money making/ selling/ distributing vcr tapes and eventually move on to streaming videos and dvd's.

[PedigreeMan]

Recheck your math.Nowhere in the post is he anywhere near $3 million for 10 books. More like $1.5 million.

 

Naw, my math is fine ... it's my reading comprehension skills that need work! I skimmed over the part where Tim lumped in "the other keys" to come up with his $3 million dollar figure.

 

Regardless, let's say the top ten books in the collection sell for $2 million. That still leaves you with 20 - 22,000 books to sell. 20/22,000 x $350 = $7 - $7.7 million for a grand total of $ 9 - $9.7 million.

 

As for flooding the market? Yeah, it would be flooded initially, and would probably take years to sell the entire thing (just like it took Chuck), but eventually the market would absorb them all. Again, if a dealer coudn't average $350 per book of the nicest collection ever found (ignore any cachet of provenance -- just treat them as gorgeous books!), he probably shouldn't have been dealing.

 

Alan

[Aman619]

I take umbrage with anyone calling the Church heirs racists,especially if you are using a non-disinterested third party as your source.

chuck had taken an awful lot of grief about his purchase of these books by the time he got around to writing these articles.How better to defend his own actions than by destroying any sympathy the Church heirs might be able to gather.

Selling a house in a declining neighborhood is racists?

 

No, but telling someone you want to sell a house ASAP because the neighborhood is becoming "too Mexican" is racist.

 

If Chuck made that up, then ok, maybe they're not racist. But what are the chances he made that up? It's a strange thing to make up about someone.

 

selling a declining asset is not racist. refusing to sell to another race would be racist. Burning crosses on a minority's front lawn to get them to move so as to preserve the racial purity of the neighborhood is racist. Throwing in the towel once the neighborhood has changed through no action of your own is not racist. Selling and stating to anyone who will listen that you sold because of those damn Mexicans is racist.

 

Having some nutjob who ripped you off unknowingly of your inheritance call you racists by claiming thats why you sold to assuage his guilt?? Thats just sad on Chuck's part.

[FFB]

I take umbrage with anyone calling the Church heirs racists,especially if you are using a non-disinterested third party as your source.

chuck had taken an awful lot of grief about his purchase of these books by the time he got around to writing these articles.How better to defend his own actions than by destroying any sympathy the Church heirs might be able to gather.

Selling a house in a declining neighborhood is racists?

 

No, but telling someone you want to sell a house ASAP because the neighborhood is becoming "too Mexican" is racist.

 

If Chuck made that up, then ok, maybe they're not racist. But what are the chances he made that up? It's a strange thing to make up about someone.

 

selling a declining asset is not racist. refusing to sell to another race would be racist. Burning crosses on a minority's front lawn to get them to move so as to preserve the racial purity of the neighborhood is racist. Throwing in the towel once the neighborhood has changed through no action of your own is not racist. Selling and stating to anyone who will listen that you sold because of those damn Mexicans is racist.

 

Having some nutjob who ripped you off unknowingly of your inheritance call you racists by claiming thats why you sold to assuage his guilt?? Thats just sad on Chuck's part.

 

Chuck paid their asking price. It wasn't his responsibility to inform them of the value of the collection, and it doesn't sound like he could have afforded to pay much more anyway since he had to borrow money in order to pay their asking price. Would you feel any better if he had offered them $4,000 instead of $2,000 for the collection? No, you'd still [#@$%!!!] about it.

 

I have no problem with what Chuck did. I will go on record as saying that I would do exactly the same thing if presented with the opportunity. If that makes me a bad guy, then [#@$%!!!] you.

[garthgantu]

 

Wow, is your Silver Age bias really showing through here, Tim?

 

By your own account, you're already at $3 million for not even ten books. (Incidentally, I think the All American #16 would go for much, much more than $120K back in 1995.) That means you would only have to average $350 per book for the rest of the collection. You would need to sell a ton of $100 books to balance out the four and five figure books -- like most of the DC super hero stuff, and almost all of the Timely stuff, and just about anything pre-1942, and ... ah, you get the picture. Even with the deflated price of Gold in 1995, if you couldn't average $350 a book from the greatest comic collection ever found you didn't deserve to be a comic dealer!

 

Does anyone here truly understand the scope of a 22,000 book collection? That's a -load of books!

 

I thought people would mock my guesstimate, but in the other direction..! Seems to me that by 1995, the Church pedigree had attained sufficient status to merit a premium on almost every book, even the 3rd-tier titles? I can't imagine many of the GA books from DC or Timely or Fiction House or Fox or Quality or other publishers going for less than 2 or 3x guide?

 

 

[garthgantu]

Any self-respecting Defender of Freedom should have walked away from the deal.

So you seem to be okay taking a throw-away sentence written years after the fact as evidence that the Churchs were racists and got what they deserved? Please tell me I'm mis-interpeting this. Chuck said it. Its a strange thing to make up. Therefore it most likely is true.

 

I don't know about walking away from the deal...I do think there were ways to consummate the deal without selling your soul.

 

As for whether the Church heirs were racist, I tend to agree that taking Chuck's word for it is iffy at best. I've read and re-read his account of the deal maybe five times in the past five years, and each time I see more examples of what could easily be Chuck rewriting history to serve his own purposes back in the day. It's pretty easy to make yourself look good and the other guy look bad when your doing all the reminiscing. It's just as likely that Chuck showed up, did a decent job of not drooling on himself while viewing the comics, and then offered $2,000 to 'cart the books away.' Later, after realizing that some people would view this as stealing from a guy on his deathbed, it would be tempting to modify the scenario somewhat in your favor.

[PedigreeMan]

 

Wow, is your Silver Age bias really showing through here, Tim?

 

By your own account, you're already at $3 million for not even ten books. (Incidentally, I think the All American #16 would go for much, much more than $120K back in 1995.) That means you would only have to average $350 per book for the rest of the collection. You would need to sell a ton of $100 books to balance out the four and five figure books -- like most of the DC super hero stuff, and almost all of the Timely stuff, and just about anything pre-1942, and ... ah, you get the picture. Even with the deflated price of Gold in 1995, if you couldn't average $350 a book from the greatest comic collection ever found you didn't deserve to be a comic dealer!

 

Does anyone here truly understand the scope of a 22,000 book collection? That's a -load of books!

 

I thought people would mock my guesstimate, but in the other direction..! Seems to me that by 1995, the Church pedigree had attained sufficient status to merit a premium on almost every book, even the 3rd-tier titles? I can't imagine many of the GA books from DC or Timely or Fiction House or Fox or Quality or other publishers going for less than 2 or 3x guide?

 

Agreed, Garth. Ten million is rather conservative, even at the depressed GA prices of 1995.

 

My average price scenario of $350 a book would be the "screw-it-all, I-need-beer-money-for-my-permanent-vacation-to-Tahiti" blowout sale!

[garthgantu]

Yeah, and to those who would say "you dufus, there wouldn't be any Church pedigree to leverage if you were the person finding the collection in '95!" I'd say this: If I found the collection in '95, I'd be on Good Morning America the following week discussing the find, my philanthropic plans for the proceeds, etc. It would become a pedigree far faster in '95 than it did in '77.

[Aman619]

I have no problem with what Chuck did. I will go on record as saying that I would do exactly the same thing if presented with the opportunity. If that makes me a bad guy, then [#@$%!!!] you.

 

I would have done the same thing. But I'd KNOW I was being a [#@$%!!!] and ripping them off. I might feel justified for the reasons you state - - but I wouldnt delude myself that It was the right thing to do. Thats the difference. I wouldnt act like Chuck does, all heroic and even insulting the heirs after the fact.

[FFB]

I have no problem with what Chuck did. I will go on record as saying that I would do exactly the same thing if presented with the opportunity. If that makes me a bad guy, then [#@$%!!!] you.

 

I would have done the same thing. But I'd KNOW I was being a [#@$%!!!] and ripping them off. I might feel justified for the reasons you state - - but I wouldnt delude myself that It was the right thing to do. Thats the difference. I wouldnt act like Chuck does, all heroic and even insulting the heirs after the fact.

 

OK, but on the other hand, MAYBE THEY REALLY ARE JERKOFFS and deserve what Chuck said about them? I believe what Chuck said about them. You don't. Neither one of us can prove the other wrong because we weren't there.

 

As for ripping them off, how did he rip them off?

 

A) He couldn't afford to pay more;

 

B) The guy who was the biggest dealer in town at the time refused to come look at the collection and the Church relatives didn't exactly have other dealers beating down their doors to come see the collection in the middle of winter;

 

C) It is highly doubtful they could have convinced an out-of-state dealer to jump on a plane to look at the collection;

 

D) Ebay and other auction venues for comic books didn't exist yet, so it's not like they could have sold the collection themselves; and

 

E) Even if they could have miraculously figured out a way to have marketed and sold the collection themselves (remember -- they thought the books were junk and would have thrown them away if there hadn't been so many of them), they clearly didn't want to do that.

 

Why are you insisting that these people got ripped off when they didn't want do the legwork to market and sell that massive collection? Nevermind that it would have taken them years to amass the knowledge base and network connections to find the appropriate buyers for the collection. Have you ever tried to grade, catalog, price, sell, package, and mail an entire comic collection on a piecemeal basis? Even if you are an expert comic dealer who knows how to grade and has a system in place for dealing with large inflows of inventory, it's a LOT of work even now, and the internet has made it a lot easier than it was in 1977! These guys wanted the books out of the house ASAP so that they could sell the house. It would have taken years to sell off the collection for top dollar.