Who Eats the Cost of Recovered Stolen Books? 1 1

[mackenzie999]

Let me point out straight away that this is purely hypothetical curiosity. I have no connection to any stolen books (AFAIK).

The stolen book threads on here have me curious though. Let's say I read a thread, and realize some pricey book I purchased was in fact stolen. Perhaps I bought it at a con and have no idea who the dealer was. Perhaps I bought it from an LCS. Say I paid ten grand for the book (I know that's an odd purchase to make at a con without having some seller ID info, again this is hypothetical). Good person that I am, I contact Robbed Collector and tell him I have his NM 98 PGX 11.0 Very Mint comic. I assume as stolen property I am obligated to surrender the book to its owner, which I would of course do. Am I then out $10K? Seems like all that does is transfer someone else's misfortune onto me. If it came from an LCS, I assume I'd have the law on my side to recoup my purchase money, and it would then be on them to track down their source of the book and try and recoup their own purchase price. I assume this all falls under receiving stolen goods or something like that, and whoever comes forward with the stolen book kind of has the hot potato and eats the cost unless they can track down whoever sold it to them. How does this really work? I bet someone here has some unfortunate experience they might be willing to share.

[rebelpk]

Great question. I've always wondered this myself whenever I see a thread about books being stolen.

I'd be up to buying those books and making sure they'd return to their rightful owner, but how would the money be recovered then?

[Bird]

Imma make up an answer. Not really, but this is what I believe...(cue Steve Martin)

...I believe that stolen property is never legally "sold" as it is stolen so it goes back to the rightful owner. All other parties are left to sort out their own disputes about money, unless they acted criminally of course.

 

Edited to add: they can sue, get a chargeback on cc, etc. for the money 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Bird

[01TheDude]

It is like a game of hot potato. If you bought it from your LCS (as per your example), you should be made whole by the LCS if they are reputable. They can pursue the person who sold to them and the chain would continue until you get to the thief -- who likely spent the money on something and is broke/can't repay that first person they sold to.

[slg343]

3 minutes ago, 01TheDude said:

It is like a game of hot potato. If you bought it from your LCS (as per your example), you should be made whole by the LCS if they are reputable. They can pursue the person who sold to them and the chain would continue until you get to the thief -- who likely spent the money on something and is broke/can't repay that first person they sold to.

This is the correct answer in almost every situation.  Except, Pawnshops in many states have lobbied well enough to avoid being the one holding the bag.

[01TheDude]

1 minute ago, slg343 said:

This is the correct answer in almost every situation.  Except, Pawnshops in many states have lobbied well enough to avoid being the one holding the bag.

a pawn shop should have proper records for who sold them anything - and I think they are liable if they buy something stolen and don't have those records.

[ThreeSeas]

24 minutes ago, 01TheDude said:

a pawn shop should have proper records for who sold them anything - and I think they are liable if they buy something stolen and don't have those records.

Yep, true here in Michigan for sure. As I posted on another thread here a while back. My dad had to pay the pawn shop what they paid the thief, to get his property back. But the cops/detective with my dad also got the name of the thief, who happened to be our formally trusted neighbor.

[W16227]

so -actual situation here -

 

Ebay item purchased - (heck - even posted it in the ebay wins thread)....

Found out it was stolen.

Helped the owner and police with the investigation ( probably on a minor level) - kept them emailing me with pictures and prices for other stolen books..

Stupid thief - he kept the emails going even after ebay shut him down requiring proof of ownership on the items he had listed...  ( so he had to know something was up )

After arrest - filed paypal claim . Received refund. Sent book back ( to police ) - everybody wins. The owner at least got back some of his collection.  Likely many books did not get located/ returned...

Using a CCard/paypal is the likely save here for me. If I had paid by check - I would have had a lot less time to file with the bank and likely would have been out the $$$ --- I do have collectors insurance, but no idea if this is covered.....

For big ticket items - best bet is to be safe - buy from a trusted source- or use payment options that have long term fraud protection......

[Bookery]

There are a lot of myths surrounding this subject.  Part of the problem lies in the fact that laws vary from state to state.  However, in most cases the LCS, Pawn Shop, jewelry store, etc., is NOT responsible for taking the loss on stolen items unless there is evidence the shop knowingly bought stolen goods, or conspired in some way with the thief.  However, the shop must have a receipt with ID of the seller... driver's license, etc.  The shop may also be required to return the stolen goods at cost... ie, they are not permitted to profit on the merchandise, and the items may also be confiscated by the police and held for evidence until / if there is a trial.  As stated above, if otherwise, it simply shifts the burden of loss from the person who was robbed onto a complete unsuspecting stranger, be it a shop owner, convention buyer, etc.  The original victim has the ability to have insurance cover his loss, which a secondary buyer generally does not.  Of course, unless the burden is financially catastrophic, it is generally a proper thing to do to return the merchandise to the original owner if possible (though again... this can get tricky... has the original owner already been compensated by insurance?).  But, as I said... laws vary.  I believe in California, the business owner is always held responsible, regardless of knowledge of the theft.  I could give you a couple of cases I've dealt with, but they are long and involved... probably more detail than is warranted at this point.

[Robot Man]

Many years ago, I bought a guitar from a friend who got it out of a storage unit. I paid pretty well but considerably under retail. A few months later, I took it in to have it re-fretted to a local guitar shop. Came back as stolen. I of course had no idea nor did the guy that sold it to me. I had to surrender it to the police and luckily, the seller was straight up enough to refund my money. He was out the money but he didn't pay much for the unit so he actually came out OK. 

I mentioned it recently that Nick Cage's stolen Action #1 was found in a storage locker in LA several years ago. The buyer had to give it up when it was identified by Metro. Man, how bad would that hurt?

I suspect a lot of stolen items turn up in storage lockers.

[Dr Zen]

This just came out today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/07/french-court-orders-return-pisarro-painting-worth-millions-jewish/

 

A couple spent 800 grand on a Pissarro that had been stolen by the Nazis. A French court ordered that it be returned to the family of the original owner.

 

[mackenzie999]

16 hours ago, Dr Zen said:

This just came out today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/07/french-court-orders-return-pisarro-painting-worth-millions-jewish/

 

A couple spent 800 grand on a Pissarro that had been stolen by the Nazis. A French court ordered that it be returned to the family of the original owner.

 

This is why it's best to avoid the Hitler Pedigree collection.

[FSF]

17 hours ago, Dr Zen said:

This just came out today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/07/french-court-orders-return-pisarro-painting-worth-millions-jewish/

 

A couple spent 800 grand on a Pissarro that had been stolen by the Nazis. A French court ordered that it be returned to the family of the original owner.

 

 

I've never seen that Pissarro before but man it is beautiful.  I am a fan of his work and that's up there with the very best I've seen.  $800K sounds really cheap, even for 1995, but I'm not an art expert by any means.

[Mxwll Smrt]

About 15 months ago I bought a high grade Flash 11 from a seller on eBay (it was supposed to be around a 9.0) and when I received the book there were some key differences from the photographs in the listing.

I wrote the seller asking about the differences and the seller took the position that they didn't know what I was talking about - so I then contacted a dealer who I was friends with that has a large database of the books that they've developed through the years and spoke with one of the employees to see if they could give me any background on the book - I thought that maybe it had been theirs at one point or another.

It turned out that the book had been missing from the dealer's inventory for some time. 

After confirming the details of the book with the dealer I returned the book to the dealer immediately (this was within the day of receiving it from the eBay seller). The dealer has been a really great friend to me and  I didn't care about how I was going to recoup the loss because I used my American Express through Paypal. For me it was just a question of when I was going to recoup.

What I did was give the dealer all of the details about my interaction and experience with the seller i.e. the seller's history, of what was recorded as a sale on eBay, emails, etc. and it turned out that a dozen or so books +/-  that had been missing with the dealer were sold by or in possession by the seller. In fact, it turned out that the dealer knew the seller...knew the seller well.

The dealer contacted local LE and spoke with a detective and the detective was willing to add the case onto their workload - despite the seller being out of state. The detective then handled all aspects of the investigation and the seller knew that they would have to come clean or face the consequences. The dealer, who is a close friend, kept me informed with updates.

At about 90 days the dealer informed me that things had come to an end I put in a claim with American Express with the specifics and Amex then forced the chargeback with Paypal.

[mackenzie999]

2 hours ago, Mxwll Smrt said:

... I put in a claim with American Express with the specifics and Amex then forced the chargeback with Paypal.

Any blowback from PP? I always figured charging back on them would result in termination of your account.

[Mxwll Smrt]

2 minutes ago, Mackenzie999 said:

Any blowback from PP? I always figured charging back on them would result in termination of your account.

No. I opened the dispute with American Express against Paypal and provided the details - and told Amex that if there was a problem with Paypal that I would have an attorney send a more colorful letter. Paypal's attorneys are at 2211 N. First Street San Jose, Ca. 93151. I was told that the consequences of them closing an account of someone who is the victim in a theft flies in the face of a court order against them that's been in effect for a very long time.

[W16227]

1 hour ago, Mackenzie999 said:

4 hours ago, Mxwll Smrt said:

... I put in a claim with American Express with the specifics and Amex then forced the chargeback with Paypal.

Any blowback from PP? I always figured charging back on them would result in termination o

Mine was even simpler - just filed a "not as described" case ( cuz nobody stated it was stolen in the description..) - they and ebay had already been served papers on the seller.

[VintageComics]

On 11/7/2017 at 3:17 PM, Bookery said:

There are a lot of myths surrounding this subject.  Part of the problem lies in the fact that laws vary from state to state.  However, in most cases the LCS, Pawn Shop, jewelry store, etc., is NOT responsible for taking the loss on stolen items unless there is evidence the shop knowingly bought stolen goods, or conspired in some way with the thief.  However, the shop must have a receipt with ID of the seller... driver's license, etc.  The shop may also be required to return the stolen goods at cost... ie, they are not permitted to profit on the merchandise, and the items may also be confiscated by the police and held for evidence until / if there is a trial.  As stated above, if otherwise, it simply shifts the burden of loss from the person who was robbed onto a complete unsuspecting stranger, be it a shop owner, convention buyer, etc.  The original victim has the ability to have insurance cover his loss, which a secondary buyer generally does not.  Of course, unless the burden is financially catastrophic, it is generally a proper thing to do to return the merchandise to the original owner if possible (though again... this can get tricky... has the original owner already been compensated by insurance?).  But, as I said... laws vary.  I believe in California, the business owner is always held responsible, regardless of knowledge of the theft.  I could give you a couple of cases I've dealt with, but they are long and involved... probably more detail than is warranted at this point.

More or less my experience.

I bought an item that I did not realize was stolen.  I am in Canada.

When I found out it was stolen, I returned the item to the owner (they are in NY state) and was reimbursed by the owner who was then supposed to track down the thief (they knew who it was) and get reimbursed through legal channels. They unfortunately were unable to track down the thief and so were never reimbursed.

They held a grudge against me for taking reimbursement and so to keep the peace, I took the short end of the stick and gave them back their money even though the owners had almost unlimited resources. I was out over $2000.

I agree with the principle of dealing with reputable people to minimize risk.

[mackenzie999]

19 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

More or less my experience.

I bought an item that I did not realize was stolen.  I am in Canada.

When I found out it was stolen, I returned the item to the owner (they are in NY state) and was reimbursed by the owner who was then supposed to track down the thief (they knew who it was) and get reimbursed through legal channels. They unfortunately were unable to track down the thief and so were never reimbursed.

They held a grudge against me for taking reimbursement and so to keep the peace, I took the short end of the stick and gave them back their money even though the owners had almost unlimited resources. I was out over $2000.

I agree with the principle of dealing with reputable people to minimize risk.

That's a bummer...I would have maybe offered to split the cost with them, why should 100% of the burden fall on the person who is not legally responsible? While good advice in general, reputable only gets you so far with theft, you could easily have passed that book on to someone else before you knew its story, and your reputation is golden.

[VintageComics]

11 minutes ago, Mackenzie999 said:

That's a bummer...I would have maybe offered to split the cost with them, why should 100% of the burden fall on the person who is not legally responsible? While good advice in general, reputable only gets you so far with theft, you could easily have passed that book on to someone else before you knew its story, and your reputation is golden.

I had bought the book as a keeper at the time so it wasn't for resale.

But ultimately, the burden should have laid on the people who the book was stolen from according to what I understand about NYC state law.