Your critiques of a Chaykin Commission, please 2 2

[theflashunc]

I think it works for me. 95% of it is pretty killer, and I tend towards the paste-ups being cool rather than a detraction. Besides, what Chaykin is best known for he nails in spades, and it ain't hats...

[Rick2you2]

3 minutes ago, SquareChaos said:

Commissions are very personal, so you'll have to decide whether or not you can live with the final piece. My biggest problem is actually the hat, I personally couldn't live with that, but I could likely get used to the jaw.

Which brings up the next question: what can he do to fix this? Would a paste-up of the whole head look awful? It's so central. Replacing the face and adding white-out to the hat to add creasing? The colors won't match. Note the white-out which he already used near the edge near the cape.

[SquareChaos]

5 minutes ago, theflashunc said:

I think it works for me. 95% of it is pretty killer, and I tend towards the paste-ups being cool rather than a detraction. Besides, what Chaykin is best known for he nails in spades, and it ain't hats...

Yep, Tala is as good as you'd want a Chaykin Tala to be.

Edited December 17, 2017 by SquareChaos

[Rick2you2]

3 minutes ago, theflashunc said:

I think it works for me. 95% of it is pretty killer, and I tend towards the paste-ups being cool rather than a detraction. Besides, what Chaykin is best known for he nails in spades, and it ain't hats...

True. I was actually expecting him to show a little nipple. 

 

[vodou]

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

It cost $1,500. That's not a ton of money, but it "ain't hay."

Too much, whether a perfect commission or not. His published market -except for very desirable vintage or painted- is nowhere near that.

[Twanj]

yeh kinda looks like he has the amish beard

[Rick2you2]

14 minutes ago, vodou said:

Too much, whether a perfect commission or not. His published market -except for very desirable vintage or painted- is nowhere near that.

I understood it was high, but I don't value art on the basis of market price. I don't plan to sell it, so all that matters is whether I can afford something, and how much I feel like making as a financial commitment to get what I want. See my point? 

 

[Rick2you2]

21 minutes ago, SquareChaos said:

Yep, Talia is as good as you'd want a Chaykin Talia to be.

In my view, it's absolutely terrific.

If you are familiar with the actress known as Gail Russell, this Talia looks like  the "bad girl" version. Her best known work these days is probably from "The Angel and the Bad Man", starring John Wayne, where she played the Quaker love interest. 

[comix4fun]

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

It cost $1,500. That's not a ton of money, but it "ain't hay."

The foot didn't bother me, actually. The jaw line does. 

 That's a key component to the discussion. The more you spend (especially relative to the artist's overall market value for his artwork overall) the more you are going to expect. 

$1500 is a very healthy number for the Chaykin market.

There is, as Scott mentioned, an element of risk to any commission. They may see the piece slightly differently in their mind's eye than you do. For the most part, if all the criteria are met from what you requested, you wouldn't complain about stylistic elements. 

Chaykin really did a nice job on the Talia figure, and on almost all of the Phantom Stranger. The parts that aren't right are just very noticeable. 

However, I've commissioned well over a 100 pieces of art in the last decade, and I've worked with every kind of artist using every kind of medium you can imagine, and I don't think I've ever seen pasted over pieces at all much less ones that were so obvious immediately upon looking at the piece. I've had artists, on their own, stop and start again when they weren't happy with a piece. I've had them run through several prelims to work out final details before. But I've never seen a paste over as a reasonable solution on a private commission. And crude cut on the foot is puzzling.

I am wondering about his process now and why the expressions weren't worked out in pencil first, and easily fixable. 

I guess I'd have less a problem if he had made a stylistic choice on the expressions that fell short of glaringly noticeable paste-overs. This is more a quality of the piece itself issue than style of execution. 

Short Version: That's a lot of money to spend for that kind of quality issue. 

[comix4fun]

6 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

I understood it was high, but I don't value art on the basis of market price. I don't plan to sell it, so all that matters is whether I can afford something, and how much I feel like making as a financial commitment to get what I want. See my point? 

 

I've done the same thing, more times than I care to discuss  , so I understand why you want it and that you want to have a piece without detraction to your eye and is of the quality you expected when laying down the cash you did. 

[Rick2you2]

16 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

 That's a key component to the discussion. The more you spend (especially relative to the artist's overall market value for his artwork overall) the more you are going to expect. 

$1500 is a very healthy number for the Chaykin market.

There is, as Scott mentioned, an element of risk to any commission. They may see the piece slightly differently in their mind's eye than you do. For the most part, if all the criteria are met from what you requested, you wouldn't complain about stylistic elements. 

Chaykin really did a nice job on the Talia figure, and on almost all of the Phantom Stranger. The parts that aren't right are just very noticeable. 

However, I've commissioned well over a 100 pieces of art in the last decade, and I've worked with every kind of artist using every kind of medium you can imagine, and I don't think I've ever seen pasted over pieces at all much less ones that were so obvious immediately upon looking at the piece. I've had artists, on their own, stop and start again when they weren't happy with a piece. I've had them run through several prelims to work out final details before. But I've never seen a paste over as a reasonable solution on a private commission. And crude cut on the foot is puzzling.

I am wondering about his process now and why the expressions weren't worked out in pencil first, and easily fixable. 

I guess I'd have less a problem if he had made a stylistic choice on the expressions that fell short of glaringly noticeable paste-overs. This is more a quality of the piece itself issue than style of execution. 

Short Version: That's a lot of money to spend for that kind of quality issue. 

And what would you recommend? 

[comix4fun]

7 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

And what would you recommend? 

That's the most difficult part of the problem. 

Do you like the piece enough to keep it as is? 

If you don't, if it's always going to be a distraction to your eye, then you've got three options I believe (if Howard were to agree to one or more of the following):

1) ask for Howard to try and fix it properly (so it's not a distraction to the eye),

2) ask Howard to start over again and provide you with a piece that didn't have such extensive and obvious repair work,

3) as for a refund, give him the piece back (if he's sent it to you), and part ways. 

I left out the "ask for a discount and keep the piece as is" option because if it's distraction to your eye as it is then having it be a little cheaper won't make it less of a distraction. 

Frankly, all three options aren't perfect ones. Even if Howard tried to fix the piece again there's no guarantee it's going to be seamless. Having him do the piece over again may or may not result in a piece that, in the aggregate, is superior to this one. Undoing the deal leaves Howard without payment for this piece with a piece he can try and resell, and you without artwork but with your money back. 

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by comix4fun

[Rick2you2]

Just now, comix4fun said:

That's the most difficult part of the problem. 

Do you like the piece enough to keep it as is? 

If you don't, if it's always going to be a distraction to your eye, then you've got three options I believe:

1) ask for Howard to try and fix it properly (so it's not a distraction to the eye),

2) ask Howard to start over again and provide you with a piece that didn't have such extensive and obvious repair work,

3) as for a refund, give him the piece back (if he's sent it to you), and part ways. 

I left out the "ask for a discount and keep the piece as is" option because if it's distraction to your eye as it is then having it be a little cheaper won't make it less of a distraction. 

Frankly, all three options aren't perfect ones. Even if Howard tried to fix the piece again there's no guarantee it's going to be seamless. Having him do the piece over again may or may not result in a piece that, in the aggregate, is superior to this one. Undoing the deal leaves Howard without payment for this piece with a piece he can try and resell, and you without artwork but with your money back. 

 

Is there any way to fix the head without making a mess of the piece? A full paste-up would look lousy. I guess you can't take off the ink. 

I don't want a refund or a discount,  and it took 2 months to get this. 

I like the piece enough to keep it, but every time I see it, I'll get annoyed. I've also wanted a Chaykin PS for a long time and couldn't reach him to get a commission. I had to drive up to Mohegan Sun from NJ, with my girlfriend in tow, just to get his email address and phone number to start the connection to get a commission. 

I also really like the guy, which makes this even harder. 

What would you do?

[Rick2you2]

19 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

1) ask for Howard to try and fix it properly (so it's not a distraction to the eye),

2) ask Howard to start over again and provide you with a piece that didn't have such extensive and obvious repair work,

3) as for a refund, give him the piece back (if he's sent it to you), and part ways. 

I left out the "ask for a discount and keep the piece as is" option because if it's distraction to your eye as it is then having it be a little cheaper won't make it less of a distraction. 

To those who are following this, my democratic urges are coming to forefront. 

Of these 4 options, what would you pick? I am strongly leaning against no. 3 and "ask for a discount", but I'll listen to whatever. 

[SquareChaos]

25 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

To those who are following this, my democratic urges are coming to forefront. 

Of these 4 options, what would you pick? I am strongly leaning against no. 3 and "ask for a discount", but I'll listen to whatever. 

I guess I agree with @comix4fun - if the piece bothers you, a discount is unlikely to make what bothers you stand out any less. And a vote here is unlikely to make anything more clear. All I can say is that it seems clear that you could live with the piece so that should at least remove the refund option. 

 

And not a vote, but just a personal opinion - asking for a refund after work is done might not come across so great.

[comix4fun]

39 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

Is there any way to fix the head without making a mess of the piece? A full paste-up would look lousy. I guess you can't take off the ink. 

I don't want a refund or a discount,  and it took 2 months to get this. 

I like the piece enough to keep it, but every time I see it, I'll get annoyed. I've also wanted a Chaykin PS for a long time and couldn't reach him to get a commission. I had to drive up to Mohegan Sun from NJ, with my girlfriend in tow, just to get his email address and phone number to start the connection to get a commission. 

I also really like the guy, which makes this even harder. 

What would you do?

First thing I'd do is talk to Howard, and let him know specifically what my problems were and ask him for suggestions on what he would do or be willing to do.

Then you can decide with Howard what the best solution is, and he can let you know if he's capable of fixing the piece or if he's willing to re-do it. 

There's no point in figuring out a strategy until you know what your options really are. 

 

[Rick2you2]

9 minutes ago, SquareChaos said:

I guess I agree with @comix4fun - if the piece bothers you, a discount is unlikely to make what bothers you stand out any less. And a vote here is unlikely to make anything more clear. All I can say is that it seems clear that you could live with the piece so that should at least remove the refund option. 

 

And not a vote, but just a personal opinion - asking for a refund after work is done might not come across so great.

I wouldn't want the money. Honestly, I was thinking of offering him more money if he could fix it and maybe add some background (God knows where background would fit). Additional cash has a way of keeping interest fresh. I'm not rolling in dough; I just want it to be the best possible Chaykin piece I can get with that subject matter.

[Rick2you2]

5 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

First thing I'd do is talk to Howard, and let him know specifically what my problems were and ask him for suggestions on what he would do or be willing to do.

Then you can decide with Howard what the best solution is, and he can let you know if he's capable of fixing the piece or if he's willing to re-do it. 

There's no point in figuring out a strategy until you know what your options really are. 

 

Certainly communicating with Howard; talking is tough. When he's in the country, he is on the West Coast. 

But yes, I would always use a soft approach. I was also thinking of including some of the comments here so he didn't think my reaction was the only one. 

As a group, I think comics artists are underpaid and under-appreciated. I always treat them with respect. 

[The Voord]

53 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

I like the piece enough to keep it, but every time I see it, I'll get annoyed. 

Sadly, that's the long term problem you now have should you let things stand.

[The Voord]

2 hours ago, Twanj said:

yeh kinda looks like he has the amish beard

No self-respecting Phantom Stranger should ever be without his shaving kit . . .

Edited December 17, 2017 by The Voord