Your critiques of a Chaykin Commission, please 2 2

[Rick2you2]

I would appreciate your reaction to a Howard Chaykin commission, and whether I am being overly critical or not.

I commissioned Howard to draw the Phantom Stranger and Talia in a "Chaykinized" version of a scene played out in several Phantom Stranger stories. She is the demoness who keeps trying to seduce him, while he must remain 
"unsullied" or cease to be whatever-he-is. Howard is a master at drawing trashy women, and I figured this was perfect for him.

When it comes to Talia, I think she is magnificent--pure Chaykin. I love how he portrayed her; how she is playing with his medallion, and even standing a little on one of his feet--all to get his attention. And most of PS is very, very good, right down to the gloves and sleeves.

But then there is that jaw line, and to a lesser extent, the hat. Chaykin had a hard time getting PS's expression right (which was expected and the subject of emails).  I'm okay with his final design choice. When he corrected what he did with the paste-over, however, it made PS look like his jaw was welded on.  The jaw line looks over-sized, and seems to have razor stubble on it. (I'm not too thrilled with the paste-over either, by the way). Also, the hat isn't right. Fedoras and trilbies (like a narrow brim fedora) have curves in them to reflect some highlights, while the part which sits on the head is too tall.  

So, my basic question is am I being too picky? And if not, is this fixable? And if it is fixable, should he be willing to do it? By the way, I really like Howard. He strikes me as a good person as well as being a terrific artist.

[Drewsky]

Commissions are always a gamble and I have sold many that bug me, at a huge loss.  On the other hand, I have some that I want to be buried with, so it's up to you to decide what you think. I believe the "babe" is very well done on this. If it cost you a ton of money, I would be more angry about the feet than anything else. Just my 2 cents. 

[vodou]

I think it's quite nice overall and:

1. Square-jawed males (and females lol) is what you're going to get with Chaykin.

2. I think the paste-ups are really cool. Is there any other commission out there with those? Maybe another Chaykin (maybe!) but otherwise...everybody else would scrap it and start over again from scratch. That makes this one pretty unique and cool. Paste-ups themselves bother me not a bit. Howard has been doing some strange (non-traditional) stuff with his published work for a number of years now, similar to this re: patches and paste-ups and digital manipulation/placements...to some extent an argument could be made that this is his working method these days. And you got a genuine piece of that in all it's non-traditional glory.

3. Hat? Not a pro on those, how they sit etc, but see no glaring problem there either. I'd say he knows light sources very well but got lazy and figured he could get away with skipping this time. You caught him. Doesn't ruin the commission for me.

This may be a case where you over-engineered the commission and Howard did the best he could within the box you placed him inside. All this...not knowing how much you paid, and (more importantly) how much that money means to you in other contexts (opportunity cost, your gross and disposable income, etc).

[zhamlau]

If the foot is a stat, yeah that would make me upset to no end. If its original art just Chaykin wanted to redo it then i would LOVE it as pure chaykin goodness and a willingness by an artist to go the extra mile for a customer.

Other than that, incredibly well done IMO. Nice piece.

[The Voord]

At first glance I thought the PS was supposed to be wearing some kind of metal jaw appliance (then I read your descriptive text).

The foot paste-up is oddly-shaped and intrusive.  He should have cut around the shape of the foot, making more of an effort to make it blend in.

Nice enough commission, but the above observations would irritate and detract for me.

Sorry, you did ask . . .

[stinkininkin]

I think with commissions, you take your chances and as long as he delivered on time and made a good faith effort at meeting your criteria, it's time to move on.  Being a buyer does not give one the license to be an art director after the fact (again, as long as the artist makes that good faith effort).  There are inherent risks with commissions, and many on this board have had great successes.  I've only tried commissions twice and they were disasters both times.  I've decided getting commissions are not my thing.  But that's just me.

 

[The Voord]

6 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

I think with commissions, you take your chances and as long as he delivered on time and made a good faith effort at meeting your criteria, it's time to move on.  Being a buyer does not give one the license to be an art director after the fact (again, as long as the artist makes that good faith effort).  There are inherent risks with commissions, and many on this board have had great successes.  I've only tried commissions twice and they were disasters both times.  I've decided getting commissions are not my thing.  But that's just me.

 

Not so sure about the highlighted point you make, Scott.  If you were employing a tradesperson to perform work on your home, you'd have every right to scrutinize and challenge the end-result if it didn't meet desired expectations.

[stinkininkin]

5 minutes ago, The Voord said:

Not so sure about the highlighted point you make, Scott.  If you were employing a tradesperson to perform work on your home, you'd have every right to scrutinize and challenge the end-result if it didn't meet desired expectations.

That's your take.  Apples and oranges.  I stand by what I said 100%.

[The Voord]

7 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

That's your take.  Apples and oranges.  I stand by what I said 100%.

Me too.

Edited December 17, 2017 by The Voord

[Michaeld]

I had a similar situation with a commission where the artist used so much white out it pulled me away from the art. I asked him if he would try again and he did. I think that on many occasions the artist knows it isn't his best effort but hands the art over hoping the fan doesn't mind. If you don't say anything then he figures it's good enough for you. If it is bothering you now it will bother you forever. Tactfully and respectfully ask him to do it over. He may not be satisfied with what he did.  

Edited December 17, 2017 by Michaeld

[Rick2you2]

23 minutes ago, Michaeld said:

I had a similar situation with a commission where the artist used so much white out it pulled me away from the art. I asked him if he would try again and he did. I think that on many occasions the artist knows it isn't his best effort but hands the art over hoping the fan doesn't mind. If you don't say anything then he figures it's good enough for you. If it is bothering you now it will bother you forever. Tactfully and respectfully ask him to do it over. I'll bet he isn't satisfied with what he did either.  

Truth be told, he finished it just before he went away on a trip. And, he does seem to run behind schedule.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Rick2you2

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, Drewsky said:

Commissions are always a gamble and I have sold many that bug me, at a huge loss.  On the other hand, I have some that I want to be buried with, so it's up to you to decide what you think. I believe the "babe" is very well done on this. If it cost you a ton of money, I would be more angry about the feet than anything else. Just my 2 cents. 

It cost $1,500. That's not a ton of money, but it "ain't hay."

The foot didn't bother me, actually. The jaw line does. 

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, vodou said:

I think it's quite nice overall and:

1. Square-jawed males (and females lol) is what you're going to get with Chaykin.

2. I think the paste-ups are really cool. Is there any other commission out there with those? Maybe another Chaykin (maybe!) but otherwise...everybody else would scrap it and start over again from scratch. That makes this one pretty unique and cool. Paste-ups themselves bother me not a bit. Howard has been doing some strange (non-traditional) stuff with his published work for a number of years now, similar to this re: patches and paste-ups and digital manipulation/placements...to some extent an argument could be made that this is his working method these days. And you got a genuine piece of that in all it's non-traditional glory.

3. Hat? Not a pro on those, how they sit etc, but see no glaring problem there either. I'd say he knows light sources very well but got lazy and figured he could get away with skipping this time. You caught him. Doesn't ruin the commission for me.

This may be a case where you over-engineered the commission and Howard did the best he could within the box you placed him inside. All this...not knowing how much you paid, and (more importantly) how much that money means to you in other contexts (opportunity cost, your gross and disposable income, etc).

I don't mind square jawed males or females. But, the jaw line here is set to far down from the mouth, and the curves on the side of the face are too rounded for an adult. My guess is that he originally had the face tilted slightly differently, along with a different facial expression, and while he fixed the face, not the jaw. 

This one is always a concern: "This may be a case where you over-engineered the commission and Howard did the best he could within the box you placed him inside." On the other hand, if you don't give the artist detailed direction, you can get some very weird stuff. 

Please understand, I am happy with over 90% of it. The reason I posted this is because I don't know if I am placing too strict a standard on it.

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, zhamlau said:

If the foot is a stat, yeah that would make me upset to no end. If its original art just Chaykin wanted to redo it then i would LOVE it as pure chaykin goodness and a willingness by an artist to go the extra mile for a customer.

Other than that, incredibly well done IMO. Nice piece.

That makes me feel better. And yes, the foot is original. 

Happy you like it. 

[Bird]

If you are happy with over 90% of it I think that you should move on. Thank Howard for working with you and move on. I agree that there are some concerning aspects to the commission but the possibility, and inherent acceptance of, that is part of the deal going in. Since these are just as much somewhat stylistic choices rather than straight out errors I would move on.

[Rick2you2]

47 minutes ago, The Voord said:

At first glance I thought the PS was supposed to be wearing some kind of metal jaw appliance (then I read your descriptive text).

The foot paste-up is oddly-shaped and intrusive.  He should have cut around the shape of the foot, making more of an effort to make it blend in.

Nice enough commission, but the above observations would irritate and detract for me.

Sorry, you did ask . . .

I'm happy I did. And I'm getting diverse opinions, too, which validates the reason I asked the question.

[Rick2you2]

 

3 minutes ago, Bird said:

If you are happy with over 90% of it I think that you should move on. Thank Howard for working with you and move on. I agree that there are some concerning aspects to the commission but the possibility, and inherent acceptance of, that is part of the deal going in. Since these are just as much somewhat stylistic choices rather than straight out errors I would move on.

Truthfully, there was a troublesome design aspect which I wish were addressed differently, but I knew that going in and so did Howard. That's why I'm okay with it. This is different. This is where the design was okay, namely, his design. It was the execution with the paste-up and hat that disturbed me. PS's jawline makes him look like he has grown a full, trimmed beard, but there is no beard.

 

 

[SquareChaos]

I don't mind the paste ups - in principle. However the final result for the Stranger's entire head looks like a disaster to me, from the hat on down to the jaw. Having said that, I quite like everything else. I'm not sure where I fall in the spectrum between @The Voord and @stinkininkin but I think I lean more towards it being acceptable for you to suggest you're not entirely happy with the final product if that is in fact the case... Assuming you didn't agree to what was done in an email, and you do mention there were emails back and forth on this topic, so it sounds like Mr. Chaykin was doing his best to keep you informed. If you did in some way agree to his attempt to 'fix it' with paste ups, I think that is a point where you rolled the dice and you have to move on and accept the outcome.

Edited December 17, 2017 by SquareChaos

[Rick2you2]

24 minutes ago, SquareChaos said:

I don't mind the paste ups - in principle. However the final result for the Stranger's entire head looks like a disaster to me, from the hat on down to the jaw. Having said that, I quite like everything else. I'm not sure where I fall in the spectrum between @The Voord and @stinkininkin but I think I lean more towards it being acceptable for you to suggest you're not entirely happy with the final product if that is in fact the case... Assuming you didn't agree to what was done in an email, and you do mention there were emails back and forth on this topic, so it sounds like Mr. Chaykin was doing his best to keep you informed. If you did in some way agree to his attempt to 'fix it' with paste ups, I think that is a point where you rolled the dice and you have to move on and accept the outcome.

No, not like that. I wanted PS to have an anguished look on his face because the poor guy really wanted to get laid but knew he couldn't. Chaykin didn't think PS's costume (and hat) would permit him to show that emotion. I told him to do the best he could. All I had seen originally was a rough-out. It's here.

I'm okay with PS's facial expression in the final. I was hoping for anguish, but this is satisfactory. That doesn't mean the execution of the head was done well. I hate to use the work disaster, but "not satisfactory" would certainly be.

I don't think I would mind a paste-up, even though it doesn't thrill me.  

[SquareChaos]

3 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

No, not like that. I wanted PS to have an anguished look on his face because the poor guy really wanted to get laid but knew he couldn't. Chaykin didn't think PS's costume (and hat) would permit him to show that emotion. I told him to do the best he could. All I had seen originally was a rough-out. It's here.

I'm okay with PS's facial expression in the final. I was hoping for anguish, but this is satisfactory. That doesn't mean the execution of the head was done well. I hate to use the work disaster, but "not satisfactory" would certainly be.

I don't think I would mind a paste-up, even though it doesn't thrill me.  

Commissions are very personal, so you'll have to decide whether or not you can live with the final piece. My biggest problem is actually the hat, I personally couldn't live with that, but I could likely get used to the jaw.