BLACK WIDOW: THE MOVIE (TBD) 4 4

[kav]

3 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

"Mary Sue" isn't a standard litmus test to be applied to all Star Wars and MCU female characters. Shuri is a super-hero within the MCU. Her super-power is that she is a super-genius. She doesn't need 7 PhD's. It's Wakanda, a culture isolated from the rest of civilization for a thousand years. It's also a comic book movie. Currently there are two other known super-geniuses in the MCU, Tony Stark and Rocket Raccoon, that is, characters who can build anything and whose direct contribution to the team is their super-intellect.

Shuri also doesn't really need to fail or succeed at anything. She's not really the main character here, is she? She's not the main protagonist so there isn't really a goal for her to overcome. While Black Panther was kind of a family ensemble movie in some ways, it's still T'Challa and Killmonger's story, as well as the legacy of the Black Panther in Wakanda. If Shuri has more story to tell, and I'm sure she will, it will come later. But of course, being a super-genius, she's very good at tech and doesn't fail at it. Wakanda wouldn't have put her in charge of Research & Development if she failed at it, would they?

Shuri is just another super-hero in the MCU. It doesn't have to be a Mary Sue thing.

 

Mary Sue as written in the original fan fiction and from whom the term arises, was not a 'main character'.  I dont know where the idea arose that a Mary Sue is a 'main character'-maybe from Rey in Star Wars, but the whole point of a Mary Sue is a young female, who shows up and knows everything, upstages the main characters, and is a reflection of wish fulfillment, all of which Shuri does nicely.

[@therealsilvermane]

3 minutes ago, kav said:

Mary Sue as written in the original fan fiction and from whom the term arises, was not a 'main character'.  I dont know where the idea arose that a Mary Sue is a 'main character'-maybe from Rey in Star Wars, but the whole point of a Mary Sue is a young female, who shows up and knows everything, upstages the main characters, and is a reflection of wish fulfillment, all of which Shuri does nicely.

The original coiner of the term "Mary Sue" must be turning in her grave these days. "Mary Sue" isn't meant to be a literary term we now teach in Literary Analysis 101. It was just a parody character meant to make fun of amateur writers of Star Trek fan fiction. 

Shuri upstages Bruce Banner in Infinity War because her intellect is in the stratosphere compared to Banner's. Again, that's her super-power. And all super-heroes in some way are a form of wish fulfillment. A lot of us, when we read comics or watch these movies, see ourselves as these heroes like Spider-Man or Iron Man or Captain Marvel or Luke Skywalker. That's partly why these movies are so popular. 

According to the original usage of Mary Sue as a parody character, it made fun of instances when the amateur writer inadvertently wrote themselves as a character in their fiction and in doing so wrote that character as flawless. The usage of the Mary Sue character is itself flawed.

[@therealsilvermane]

2 hours ago, kav said:

would you settle for walking McGuffin then?

If Rey in star wars is not a Mary Sue then there is no such thing as a Mary Sue.

 

2 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Rey is 100% certified Mary Sue. No question.

Vibranium could maybe be a MacGuffin.

Rey is not a "Mary Sue" in its modern fanboy definition or in the original parody character definition and any attempt to label her as a "Mary Sue" is simply the essence of a double standard for female heroes. 

As defined by the original Mary Sue parody character, Rey is not a result of J.J. Abrams inadvertently writing himself into the Star Wars story as a perfect little character who saves everybody and everything. In the modern fanboy derogatory term, Rey is not a perfect character, either. At the same time, her story isn't finished. She starts off as a disenfranchised scavenger on a desert planet. But the reason why we are following her in Star Wars is because she is powerful with the Force and has some mysterious connection to the Jedi, which we do not know yet. Yes, towards the end of Force Awakens, Rey mysteriously knows how to use a Jedi Mind Trick and can wield a light saber in a fight when, to our knowledge, she has never wielded a light saber before. Some folks have cited this as the reason she's a "Mary Sue", but that's actually part of the mystery of who Rey is. Her story still needs to be finished by JJ Abrams in Rise of Skywalker. Is Rey a Skywalker? Is she somehow a Chosen One? Obviously Rey's "midichlorian count" is off the charts. Could she be a child of the Force like Anakin? We can't conclude the book on who Rey is until JJ Abrams gives us the final chapter of that story this Christmas. 

And as a side note, Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star using the Force after a couple of days training with Obi Wan on the Falcon. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by @therealsilvermane

[kav]

1 hour ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Shuri upstages Bruce Banner in Infinity War because her intellect is in the stratosphere compared to Banner's. Again, that's her super-power.

Powers and abilities

After the trials, like the Black Panthers before her, Shuri consumed the heart-shaped herb; this granted her enhanced speed, agility, strength, endurance and senses. ... Shuri's training in the Djalia also imbued her with super-speed and the ability to temporarily reanimate Wakandan corpses.

Nothing about super intellect has ever been claimed as a super power for Shuri.  Merely claiming 'super power' is an attempt to excuse a Mary Sue.  "Oh yes she's smarter than Banner and Stark and everyone and she's only 17 but see that's her super power so it's not mary sue or nothin.

[@therealsilvermane]

3 hours ago, kav said:

would you settle for walking McGuffin then?

If Rey in star wars is not a Mary Sue then there is no such thing as a Mary Sue.

 

3 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Rey is 100% certified Mary Sue. No question.

Vibranium could maybe be a MacGuffin.

"MacGuffin" is another word that gets overused and abused. A MacGuffin, as used by Alfred Hitchcock in an interview once, is an element of a plot in some of his movies that serves only to give the main characters something to do or chase after and thus drive the plot, and has no other purpose within the movie. The MacGuffin in his spy movies could be secret plans or plutonium sauce, it doesn't matter, as long as the characters are chasing after it.

Also, a MacGuffin, like a Mary Sue, was never meant to be a term applied to all movies or taught in film school. Hitchcock merely used it as an example to say that he doesn't really care about certain elements of a story. 

With that, the Infinity Stones or Vibranium is not a MacGuffin. Is the One Ring in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy a MacGuffin? No. While it drives the plot of the Fellowship's mission, the Ring is also an important element within the plot. Frodo uses it at times. It tempts Boromir and other characters. Not saying the Avengers is as well written as Tolkein's classic, but the Tesseract is not a MacGuffin, either. It is an important element within the movie itself, besides also motivating the Avengers to act. The Tesseract in Avengers opens a portal through which Loki and the Chitauri enter to invade Earth. The Mind Stone in Loki's scepter influences the Avengers to argue with each other and helps bring out the Hulk on the Hellicarrier. In Infinity War and Endgame, Thanos uses the Stones throughout the movie as weapons and even turns back time with the Time Stone to revive Vision. In Black Panther, Vibranium does not drive the plot. What drives the plot is T'Challa needing to get the throne back from Killmonger.

That concludes this segment of Hitchcock 101.

[kav]

If you dont think Rey is a Mary Sue i'd be interested to know who you think is a Mary Sue.

[kav]

Just now, @therealsilvermane said:

 

"MacGuffin" is another word that gets overused and abused. A MacGuffin, as used by Alfred Hitchcock in an interview once, is an element of a plot in some of his movies that serves only to give the main characters something to do or chase after and thus drive the plot, and has no other purpose within the movie. The MacGuffin in his spy movies could be secret plans or plutonium sauce, it doesn't matter, as long as the characters are chasing after it.

Also, a MacGuffin, like a Mary Sue, was never meant to be a term applied to all movies or taught in film school. Hitchcock merely used it as an example to say that he doesn't really care about certain elements of a story. 

With that, the Infinity Stones or Vibranium is not a MacGuffin. Is the One Ring in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy a MacGuffin? No. While it drives the plot of the Fellowship's mission, the Ring is also an important element within the plot. Frodo uses it at times. It tempts Boromir and other characters. Not saying the Avengers is as well written as Tolkein's classic, but the Tesseract is not a MacGuffin, either. It is an important element within the movie itself, besides also motivating the Avengers to act. The Tesseract in Avengers opens a portal through which Loki and the Chitauri enter to invade Earth. The Mind Stone in Loki's scepter influences the Avengers to argue with each other and helps bring out the Hulk on the Hellicarrier. In Infinity War and Endgame, Thanos uses the Stones throughout the movie as weapons and even turns back time with the Time Stone to revive Vision. In Black Panther, Vibranium does not drive the plot. What drives the plot is T'Challa needing to get the throne back from Killmonger.

That concludes this segment of Hitchcock 101.

I am fully aware of what a McGuffin is I was just trying to find some other term, half in jest, for what Shuri is.

[@therealsilvermane]

17 minutes ago, kav said:

Powers and abilities

After the trials, like the Black Panthers before her, Shuri consumed the heart-shaped herb; this granted her enhanced speed, agility, strength, endurance and senses. ... Shuri's training in the Djalia also imbued her with super-speed and the ability to temporarily reanimate Wakandan corpses.

Nothing about super intellect has ever been claimed as a super power for Shuri.  Merely claiming 'super power' is an attempt to excuse a Mary Sue.  "Oh yes she's smarter than Banner and Stark and everyone and she's only 17 but see that's her super power so it's not mary sue or nothin.

So is Tony Stark's genius not anything special, either, then? Is his only contribution to the Avengers his Iron Man suit? No. Stark's super power is his genius. That's what created the Iron Man suit and the arc reactor. That's what saved the day in Endgame.

Shuri's special ability is also her super genius intellect. The Russos have confirmed that she is one the smartest persons on Earth in the MCU. And we're talking the MCU Shuri, not the old comic book version.

[kav]

5 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

So is Tony Stark's genius not anything special, either, then? Is his only contribution to the Avengers his Iron Man suit? No. Stark's super power is his genius. That's what created the Iron Man suit and the arc reactor. That's what saved the day in Endgame.

Shuri's special ability is also her super genius intellect. The Russos have confirmed that she is one the smartest persons on Earth in the MCU. And we're talking the MCU Shuri, not the old comic book version.

if she was that outlandishly smart Thanos should have presented no problem whatsoever.  She could have just told Dr Strange to make a portal, stuff thanos hand with infinity gauntlet thru it then shut the portal.  That's just one idea I came up with as not even a super genius.  I'm sure she could think of thousands of other ways to defeat him.  

[kav]

The problem here is she is just claimed to be a super genius because there's stuff she built.  None of her actions or words show any particular smarts.  Just here I'm a super genius cause look and this gadget I made.  

[@therealsilvermane]

6 minutes ago, kav said:

if she was that outlandishly smart Thanos should have presented no problem whatsoever.  She could have just told Dr Strange to make a portal, stuff thanos hand with infinity gauntlet thru it then shut the portal.  That's just one idea I came up with as not even a super genius.  I'm sure she could think of thousands of other ways to defeat him.  

In Infinity War, the Avengers or the Guardians could have defeated Thanos or kept him from getting a Stone several hundred times. It's not my fault the Russo Brothers' MCU movies are chock full of plot holes going back to Winter Soldier.

Also, from the movies, Shuri's super intellect doesn't apply to battle strategy, it applies to tech.

Edited September 4, 2019 by @therealsilvermane

[@therealsilvermane]

3 minutes ago, kav said:

The problem here is she is just claimed to be a super genius because there's stuff she built.  None of her actions or words show any particular smarts.  Just here I'm a super genius cause look and this gadget I made.  

Yet she goes toe to toe with Bruce Banner in the technical lingo talk and makes Vision give her double take with her brilliant reassessment of his programming?

[kav]

3 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Yet she goes toe to toe with Bruce Banner in the technical lingo talk and makes Vision give her double take with her brilliant reassessment of his programming?

lemme know who you think IS a Mary Sue for comparison.

[kav]

ps techno gibberish doesnt really demonstrate objective smarts to an audience. 
"Yes I reverse polarized the neutron flux and co oscillated quark synthesis to metaphose the internal didactic screening"
anyone can come up with techno gibb

[@therealsilvermane]

25 minutes ago, kav said:

lemme know who you think IS a Mary Sue for comparison.

That's the thing. In my opinion, Mary Sue, in the modern sense, exists only in the minds of people who just don't like a particular female superhero or space fantasy character. In Hollywood, a movie will not be greenllighted and given millions of dollars unless the main character has at least some kind of story with obstacles that character must overcome. I don't think a movie exists where the main character is just a poor doppelgänger for the inept screenplay writer and "Mary Sues" her way to the end. 

And supporting characters are just that. Support. They aren't necessarily there to fail or succeed. They are there to be characters subsidiary to the main character's journey. Now there are cases where a supporting character outshines the main character and that actor wins Best Supporting Actor but I guess that's not the same.

23 minutes ago, kav said:

ps techno gibberish doesnt really demonstrate objective smarts to an audience. 
"Yes I reverse polarized the neutron flux and co oscillated quark synthesis to metaphose the internal didactic screening"
anyone can come up with techno gibb

Yes, Tony Stark and Hank Pym say the same fictional mumbo jumbo yet we accept them as super geniuses within the MCU, right? All the Pyms and Bill Foster do in Ant-Man and the Wasp is put Quantum in front of everything and it stands in for genius talk.

Edited September 4, 2019 by @therealsilvermane

[kav]

6 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

That's the thing. In my opinion, Mary Sue, in the modern sense, exists only in the minds of people who just don't like a particular female superhero or space fantasy character. In Hollywood, a movie will not be greenllighted and given millions of dollars unless the main character has at least some kind of story with obstacles that character must overcome. I don't think a movie exists where the main character is just a poor doppelgänger for the inept screenplay writer and "Mary Sues" her way to the end. 

And supporting characters are just that. Support. They aren't necessarily there to fail or succeed. They are there to be characters subsidiary to the main character's journey. Now there are cases where a supporting character outshines the main character and that actor wins Best Supporting Actor but I guess that's not the same.

Yes, Tony Stark and Hank Pym say the same fictional mumbo jumbo yet we accept them as super geniuses within the MCU, right? All the Pyms and Bill Foster do in Ant-Man and the Wasp is put Quantum in front of everything and it stands in for genius talk.

I see Mary Sue as a screen writing term and thus very useful.  Just like passive protagonist, it's something to be avoided by a good screenwriter.  A Mary Sue is an undeveloped character-and thats not good.  If she's good at everything, that's a 2 dimensional character and to be avoided.  It's a very useful concept for a screenwriter.  Since you dont like the term personally you can think of it as an 'unrealistically poorly fleshed out character who is just good at stuff they have no business being good at, just to move the plot forward'.  If you want a teen genius like Shuri, you have to spend at least some time delving into how she got there.  And you have to show her failing at stuff and learning.  This is just good scriptwriting. I guess we're gonna disagree on this one but I saw Rey as exactly a 'poor doppelgänger for the inept screenplay writer and "Mary Sues" her way to the end'.  

[@therealsilvermane]

14 minutes ago, kav said:

If you want a teen genius like Shuri, you have to spend at least some time delving into how she got there.  And you have to show her failing at stuff and learning.  This is just good scriptwriting.

Okay, if Ryan Coogler did that, then it would have been Shuri's journey and thus her movie. But it wasn't her movie. It was T'Challa's. The back story of Vibranium was told in the movie's opening. Now, how Shuri got to be so good at manipulating that vibranium is not told, but again, this wasn't her movie. In that sense, Shuri as a supporting character served to move T'Challa's story along by powering up his Panther costume. But through Coogler's humorous writing and the relationship he establishes between Shuri and her older brother, the most important part of the Marvel Universe is established, her character. And that's really what's important with the Marvel movies and the Marvel Universe that was created by Stan Lee. Character.

[kav]

4 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Okay, if Ryan Coogler did that, then it would have been Shuri's journey and thus her movie. But it wasn't her movie. It was T'Challa's. The back story of Vibranium was told in the movie's opening. Now, how Shuri got to be so good at manipulating that vibranium is not told, but again, this wasn't her movie. In that sense, Shuri as a supporting character served to move T'Challa's story along by powering up his Panther costume. But through Coogler's humorous writing and the relationship he establishes between Shuri and her older brother, the most important part of the Marvel Universe is established, her character. And that's really what's important with the Marvel movies and the Marvel Universe that was created by Stan Lee. Character.

I'm only talking about 5 or so minutes of backstory to make a teen genius and the sole techno person in Wakanda believable.  Otherwise it just hangs there like a wtf.  And that's bad screenwriting.

[kav]

As far as Rey defeating a Jedi the first time she picks up a lightsabre and becoming instantly masterful at using the force and flying the Millennium Falcon etc-that is the sloppiest form of screenwriting of all.  

[@therealsilvermane]

13 minutes ago, kav said:

I'm only talking about 5 or so minutes of backstory to make a teen genius and the sole techno person in Wakanda believable.  Otherwise it just hangs there like a wtf.  And that's bad screenwriting.

Mm, not really. From the movie's opening and throughout, it's reiterated time and again how powerful Vibranium is. And why is it so powerful? Because it's not of this Earth.

Similarly, why do we accept that Kal El and Diana are so powerful over in DC? Because neither are of this Earth. He's an alien, she's a goddess. 

Vibranium is a crazy alien element that can do anything. Shuri was born a super-genius. It's easy enough for me to believe. A lot of other folks also found it easy enough to believe and that's why Shuri is now a fan favorite in the MCU.

Maybe this book can help?

Edited September 5, 2019 by @therealsilvermane