STAR WARS : Episode IX December 20, 2019 6 6

[Comics4All]

7 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

I actually enjoyed how Luke was a broken hero.  He was a man who had lost his faith.  It happens.  No matter his past accomplishments I did not want to see Luke just emerge from exile and save the day and was pleasantly surprised to see the 'hero' lose faith and have to learn what it is all about again that makes him who he is.  Luke became a broken man.  When I raised that point to a friend he said that Obi Wan never lost his way.  That was a good point.  To counter, I suggested that when comparing fictional characters:

• Obi Wan never faced the burden that Luke did. 
• Obi Wan received proper training that Luke never did.

 

I disagree. Luke was a hotheaded young man who rushed off & did things without heeding the advice of OW & Y & it turned out very bad for him.

As for "broken" he had his hand chopped off, potentially lost his best friend, found out his father was a mass murderer despot & he was still able to find enough courage & hope to redeem his father save his friends etc....

Luke would have never left his family & the galaxy to such a fate to chill with space nuns & drink green milk from his Yeti bottle! 

Obi Wan was not an optimist like Luke was, he didn't believe Vader could be turned.

RJ has turned Luke into a coward & a pessimist which is 100% out of character!

Your friend is right about Obi not losing his way. 

That's why Mark Hamill said "my Luke wouldn't do these things so I had to say I was playing Jake Skywalker "until the Mouse House put the smack down on him! You have seen those interviews, right?

Ultimately it comes down to the writers: The story they crafted for all these characters, (Old and New)  puts them in the worst light possible! 

Look at Endgame: would Cap give up being Cap in the comics? Probably not, but did I feel so happy seeing him dance with Peggy & have a full life? YES!  because that's how you treat a beloved character, with a good ending! 

 

[Mr Sneeze]

Just now, theCapraAegagrus said:

Don't you think that Poe had legitimate motivation for mutiny, though? Poe is kinda the embodiment of rebellion, I think. He doesn't follow orders blindly like most storm troopers. Poe is also a high-rank officer, isn't he (not entirely sure about that)? His entire 'development' is predicated on awful storytelling. I personally think his overall character fits within the rebellion.

Mutiny is in and of itself a big deal. It requires development to get there, you can't just disagree with something and do your own thing. It's a bad narrative which results in Poe being a insufficiently_thoughtful_person imho. It's hard for the rebellion to have any credibility if something like mutiny can happen so brazenly. The narrative is on Johnson though.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, Mr Sneeze said:

Mutiny is in and of itself a big deal. It requires development to get there, you can't just disagree with something and do your own thing. It's a bad narrative which results in Poe being a insufficiently_thoughtful_person imho. It's hard for the rebellion to have any credibility if something like mutiny can happen so brazenly. The narrative is on Johnson though.

IIRC, Poe pushed Purple Hair Lady multiple times to give him hope that she had a plan. She refused. He thought she was leading a suicide mission. He was acting like Captain America, going against orders to save his military. A little transparency, rather than put-him-in-his-place dialogue, would've made for a lack of drama. The storytelling is just flat-out bad. I think we agree on that.

[Comics4All]

Just now, theCapraAegagrus said:

IIRC, Poe pushed Purple Hair Lady multiple times to give him hope that she had a plan. She refused. He thought she was leading a suicide mission. He was acting like Captain America, going against orders to save his military. A little transparency, rather than put-him-in-his-place dialogue, would've made for a lack of drama. The storytelling is just flat-out bad. I think we agree on that.

The storytelling is just flat-out bad. I think we agree on that.

This. The entire sequence with the ships running out of gas was just dumb so the whole mutiny thing just bad writing on top of bad writing! 

[fantastic_four]

This thread should be re-named to "The Irvin Kershner Richard Marquand George Lucas J.J. Abrams Rian Johnson ruined my childhood thread".

[theCapraAegagrus]

New poll. Who tried to ruin my childhood more?

• My dad.
• Rian Johnson.

[Comics4All]

1 minute ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

New poll. Who tried to ruin my childhood more?

• My dad.
• Rian Johnson.

Answer: Rian Johnson! 

[Mr Sneeze]

3 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

This thread should be re-named to "The Irvin Kershner Richard Marquand George Lucas J.J. Abrams Rian Johnson ruined my childhood thread".

It's all in good fun I would hope! As much as I pretend to dismiss them as simple movies, I find I still get caught up in the excitement! Hopefully we can all step back and have a good laugh at ourselves as well!

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, comics4all said:

Answer: Rian Johnson! 

Trick question. I think my dad tried harder. Rian Johnson succeeded more, though.

[Comics4All]

13 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

This thread should be re-named to "The Irvin Kershner Richard Marquand George Lucas J.J. Abrams Rian Johnson ruined my childhood thread".

RJ didn't ruin my childhood.

What he ruined was a potentially good movie for a big name brand! 

[Comics4All]

1 minute ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Trick question. I think my dad tried harder. Rian Johnson succeeded more, though.

Please don't get so EMOtionial about your dad like EMO Ren please!

 

[Comics4All]

2 minutes ago, Mr Sneeze said:

It's all in good fun I would hope! As much as I pretend to dismiss them as simple movies, I find I still get caught up in the excitement! Hopefully we can all step back and have a good laugh at ourselves as well!

 

Agreed. The problem is that when you see the potential & it just falls miserably  flat it is just sad.

At the end of the day, it is just a movie & all movies have flaws, but TLJ is just one big flaw!!!! 

[Buzzetta]

22 minutes ago, comics4all said:

I disagree. Luke was a hotheaded young man who rushed off & did things without heeding the advice of OW & Y & it turned out very bad for him.

As for "broken" he had his hand chopped off, potentially lost his best friend, found out his father was a mass murderer despot & he was still able to find enough courage & hope to redeem his father save his friends etc....

Luke would have never left his family & the galaxy to such a fate to chill with space nuns & drink green milk from his Yeti bottle! 

Obi Wan was not an optimist like Luke was, he didn't believe Vader could be turned.

RJ has turned Luke into a coward & a pessimist which is 100% out of character!

Your friend is right about Obi not losing his way. 

That's why Mark Hamill said "my Luke wouldn't do these things so I had to say I was playing Jake Skywalker "until the Mouse House put the smack down on him! You have seen those interviews, right?

Ultimately it comes down to the writers: The story they crafted for all these characters, (Old and New)  puts them in the worst light possible! 

Look at Endgame: would Cap give up being Cap in the comics? Probably not, but did I feel so happy seeing him dance with Peggy & have a full life? YES!  because that's how you treat a beloved character, with a good ending! 

 

I can understand that.  However in my experiences, what breaks someone can be perceived as minimal to others in comparison to what that person has already overcome.   I had no problem with Luke losing his way.  I agree with you that after losing his parents, Aunt and Uncle, his hand, discovering his lineage and bearing responsibility for his father death, he still persevered and maintained hope. However he did that because he believed that what he did was for the greater good.  Then when that greater good seemingly crumbled he realized the greater good was not what he thought it was.  When Ben turns, it was all for nothing... This is what breaks Luke.  That made sense to me.   Heroes are fallible and they should be.  Otherwise it does not create a compelling story. 

In the last few years I reconnected with a childhood friend over facebook that made a certain career path.  They sacrificed and lost a lot because of this career path.  Then, something happened within the career that made them say that the career was not what they believed it to be.  He lost his faith.  He was clergy. 

I know of PD and FDNY that have sacrificed their marriages, love of their children, watching their children grow up all the while believing in the calling that they have undertaken.  Then they see something that sours the job for them.  They have become broken.  For one friend who was a 9/11 1st  responder it was discovering that he had brain cancer and him telling us that he did not know how long he really had left and that he wasted so much time with a job that at  the end of the day was not worth the sacrifice. 

People no matter how strong they are... can become broken.  Even our greatest heroes can break.  It's allowed.  They are human. 

Luke broke.  This was interesting to me.  

[Buzzetta]

32 minutes ago, Mr Sneeze said:

Mutiny is in and of itself a big deal. It requires development to get there, you can't just disagree with something and do your own thing. It's a bad narrative which results in Poe being a insufficiently_thoughtful_person imho. It's hard for the rebellion to have any credibility if something like mutiny can happen so brazenly. The narrative is on Johnson though.

He trusted his instinct... Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.   There are many instances in Star Wars where people went on instinct and broke from the plan.  Why, one time this scrappy kid from this desert planet, got behind the controls of a starfighter and shut off his targeting computer when attacking this space station. 

 

[Comics4All]

1 minute ago, Buzzetta said:

I can understand that.  However in my experiences, what breaks someone can be perceived as minimal to others in comparison to what that person has already overcome.   I had no problem with Luke losing his way.  I agree with you that after losing his parents, Aunt and Uncle, his hand, discovering his lineage and bearing responsibility for his father death, he still persevered and maintained hope. However he did that because he believed that what he did was for the greater good.  Then when that greater good seemingly crumbled he realized the greater good was not what he thought it was.  When Ben turns, it was all for nothing... This is what breaks Luke.  That made sense to me.   Heroes are fallible and they should be.  Otherwise it does not create a compelling story. 

In the last few years I reconnected with a childhood friend over facebook that made a certain career path.  They sacrificed and lost a lot because of this career path.  Then, something happened within the career that made them say that the career was not what they believed it to be.  He lost his faith.  He was clergy. 

I know of PD and FDNY that have sacrificed their marriages, love of their children, watching their children grow up all the while believing in the calling that they have undertaken.  Then they see something that sours the job for them.  They have become broken.  For one friend who was a 9/11 1st  responder it was discovering that he had brain cancer and him telling us that he did not know how long he really had left and that he wasted so much time with a job that at  the end of the day was not worth the sacrifice. 

People no matter how strong they are... can become broken.  Even our greatest heroes can break.  It's allowed.  They are human. 

Luke broke.  This was interesting to me.  

I agree that fallible heroes are compelling.

What I contend is that the writing & storyline was a poor choice for Luke. They could have had him fallible but not turn his back on his only nephew(murder him in cold blood , a child, no less) , & the whole galaxy for 20 years & do nothing.

I know that you liked that they tried new thing & I am for that: but not trying new ideas that are horrible!

They should have never gone with another empire, death star, rebellion.... come up with new threats!!!! new stories!!! 

[Mr Sneeze]

Just now, Buzzetta said:

31 minutes ago, comics4all said:

I disagree. Luke was a hotheaded young man who rushed off & did things without heeding the advice of OW & Y & it turned out very bad for him.

As for "broken" he had his hand chopped off, potentially lost his best friend, found out his father was a mass murderer despot & he was still able to find enough courage & hope to redeem his father save his friends etc....

Luke would have never left his family & the galaxy to such a fate to chill with space nuns & drink green milk from his Yeti bottle! 

Obi Wan was not an optimist like Luke was, he didn't believe Vader could be turned.

RJ has turned Luke into a coward & a pessimist which is 100% out of character!

Your friend is right about Obi not losing his way. 

That's why Mark Hamill said "my Luke wouldn't do these things so I had to say I was playing Jake Skywalker "until the Mouse House put the smack down on him! You have seen those interviews, right?

Ultimately it comes down to the writers: The story they crafted for all these characters, (Old and New)  puts them in the worst light possible! 

Look at Endgame: would Cap give up being Cap in the comics? Probably not, but did I feel so happy seeing him dance with Peggy & have a full life? YES!  because that's how you treat a beloved character, with a good ending! 

 

I can understand that.  However in my experiences, what breaks someone can be perceived as minimal to others in comparison to what that person has already overcome.   I had no problem with Luke losing his way.  I agree with you that after losing his parents, Aunt and Uncle, his hand, discovering his lineage and bearing responsibility for his father death, he still persevered and maintained hope. However he did that because he believed that what he did was for the greater good.  Then when that greater good seemingly crumbled he realized the greater good was not what he thought it was.  When Ben turns, it was all for nothing... This is what breaks Luke.  That made sense to me.   Heroes are fallible and they should be.  Otherwise it does not create a compelling story. 

In the last few years I reconnected with a childhood friend over facebook that made a certain career path.  They sacrificed and lost a lot because of this career path.  Then, something happened within the career that made them say that the career was not what they believed it to be.  He lost his faith.  He was clergy. 

I know of PD and FDNY that have sacrificed their marriages, love of their children, watching their children grow up all the while believing in the calling that they have undertaken.  Then they see something that sours the job for them.  They have become broken.  For one friend who was a 9/11 1st  responder it was discovering that he had brain cancer and him telling us that he did not know how long he really had left and that he wasted so much time with a job that at  the end of the day was not worth the sacrifice. 

People no matter how strong they are... can become broken.  Even our greatest heroes can break.  It's allowed.  They are human. 

Luke broke.  This was interesting to me.  

Two good posts here...

I have to admit, I wanted better then for Luke to be a lost soul.

[theCapraAegagrus]

12 minutes ago, comics4all said:

Please don't get so EMOtionial about your dad like EMO Ren please!

Emotional depth in villains is hard to come by.

Vader was a cold and calculating menace. Kylo Ren differentiating from that trope was good, fresh, direction. I hope it plays into his demise.

[Comics4All]

1 minute ago, Mr Sneeze said:

Two good posts here...

I have to admit, I wanted better then for Luke to be a lost soul.

I feel they regressed all of the OT characters back to Ep IV status:

 

[Comics4All]

Just now, theCapraAegagrus said:

Emotional depth in villains is hard to come by.

Vader was a cold and calculating menace. Kylo Ren differentiating from that trope was good, fresh, direction. I hope it plays into his demise.

Wow! you said something good about Kylo Ren?  I am shocked, Sir!

 

 

[Mr Sneeze]

Just now, Buzzetta said:

34 minutes ago, Mr Sneeze said:

Mutiny is in and of itself a big deal. It requires development to get there, you can't just disagree with something and do your own thing. It's a bad narrative which results in Poe being a insufficiently_thoughtful_person imho. It's hard for the rebellion to have any credibility if something like mutiny can happen so brazenly. The narrative is on Johnson though.

He trusted his instinct... Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.   There are many instances in Star Wars where people went on instinct and broke from the plan.  Why, one time this scrappy kid from this desert planet, got behind the controls of a starfighter and shut off his targeting computer when attacking this space station. 

But they didn't commit mutiny. It's a personal beef, I'll give you that but playing the mutiny card should not be done lightly.