Incredible Hulk #181 - is it *that* red-hot? 17 17

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

23 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Well, it was probably won by the same person who won the single highest graded CGC 9.9 copy and paid something like $150K for back over a decade ago.  

Only problem is that it ended up with a severe cases of SCS damage and would be lucky to hit back into the 9's if it was ever regraded again. 

That’s a terrible story.  But, and I’m sorry for my ignorance, what is SCS damage?

[scooter99]

8 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

That’s a terrible story.  But, and I’m sorry for my ignorance, what is SCS damage?

Shaken Comic Syndrome

[lou_fine]

39 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Only problem is that it ended up with a severe cases of SCS damage and would be lucky to hit back into the 9's if it was ever regraded again. 

That’s a terrible story.  But, and I’m sorry for my ignorance, what is SCS damage?

 

31 minutes ago, scooter99 said:

Shaken Comic Syndrome

Not sure if it's completely fixable by a good pressing job or not.  

But I strongly suspect it would never be able to get back into the high side of the 9's again from a grading point of view, no matter how hard they work at it.  

[drbanner]

6 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Well, it was probably won by the same person who won the single highest graded CGC 9.9 copy and paid something like $150K for back over a decade ago.  

Only problem is that it ended up with a severe cases of SCS damage and would be lucky to hit back into the 9's if it was ever regraded again. 

Wow, got a pic?

[delekkerste]

11 hours ago, Mjolnir! said:

I guess you're right.  I could easily buy the book but even if I did, I can't see over paying like this.

Yep.  Just because one can afford to overpay and look  doesn't mean one should open one's wallet and remove all doubt, just as you don't pay $1800 for an $18 pizza just because you're Jeff Bezos. 

7 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Well, it was probably won by the same person who won the single highest graded CGC 9.9 copy and paid something like $150K for back over a decade ago.  

Only problem is that it ended up with a severe cases of SCS damage and would be lucky to hit back into the 9's if it was ever regraded again. 

I held the 9.9 in my hands at an SDCC sometime in the early 2000s (2001-03 timeframe).  Back then I was known as a big Bronze/Copper comic guy and the then-owner saw my name on my badge and invited me over to check it out (I forget what price he had on it at the time, but, it was way out of my league back then).  It didn't look like a 9.9 to me even before the SCS.  It's been too long to remember specific details, but, I remember my impression of it:  gift grade from early days of CGC grading. Not that it matters to the label-chasers out there. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by delekkerste

[kimik]

I passed on two copies of IH 181 that would have been easy 9.8s with a press, with a shot at 9.9, from the same seller. He was asking $800 for the pair raw, and the only issues were pressure indents from handling/storing that made me pass at those astronomical prices . Both had the deepest reds I have ever seen on IH 181s since, and were perfectly centered. They were the two best copies the OO had in his stack of them (he bought a bunch when they were released as a spec play - his BA spec books were all in amazing shape). He sent the books in without pressing and received 9.6 on both, if I recall correctly. I had a chance to buy them again for $2500 CDN apiece after grading in 2003 and passed again. 

[I am not Glenda]

 $ 343.00 Why? or ..........................who would want this for more then $20 at best?:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-Vol-1-Almost-Coverless-Low-Grade-1st-App-Wolverine-No-MVS-/202433472495?hash=item2f21f9a7ef%3Ag%3A4OMAAOSwV45blzki&nma

[kimik]

I guess that means sell your trash copies now while the market is irrational...........

[Dark Knight]

Wasn't there a rumor or possibly could be true that the MIle High II collection is a warehouse find with multiple copies of IH 181 as well as other books?  I seem to remember reading something along those lines.

[lou_fine]

4 hours ago, Dark Knight said:

Wasn't there a rumor or possibly could be true that the MIle High II collection is a warehouse find with multiple copies of IH 181 as well as other books?  I seem to remember reading something along those lines.

Brian;

This was already alluded to on Page 4 of the following thread:

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/445718-2019-comiclink-comic-connect-heritage-etcetera-wins/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-10540615

Since this was a rather sizable warehouse find, I imagine there would be a significantly large number of copies of each book in there, including the Hulk 181's.  

[lou_fine]

On 1/25/2019 at 6:16 AM, delekkerste said:

I held the 9.9 in my hands at an SDCC sometime in the early 2000s (2001-03 timeframe).  Back then I was known as a big Bronze/Copper comic guy and the then-owner saw my name on my badge and invited me over to check it out (I forget what price he had on it at the time, but, it was way out of my league back then).  It didn't look like a 9.9 to me even before the SCS.  It's been too long to remember specific details, but, I remember my impression of it:  gift grade from early days of CGC grading. Not that it matters to the label-chasers out there. 

Gene;

So, I guess you are saying that this particular CGC 9.9 graded copy was probably over graded during possibly one of their soft grading time periods.  Either that or it caught the graders, and most especially the finalizer, in a happy and generous mood that day.  

I guess that's why our wallet says that we should really be following the mantra of: "Buy the book and not the label".  Clearly, if what you are saying is true, then the purchaser followed the other manta which is to:  "Buy the label and not the book".  

All I can say is more power to him then if he was willing to spend something like $140K more just to get that extra 0.1 increment in the CGC label.  

[Dark Knight]

This Mile High II copy might even look better than the 9.9 one even..

[Chaos_in_Canada]

On 1/25/2019 at 9:16 AM, delekkerste said:

Yep.  Just because one can afford to overpay and look  doesn't mean one should open one's wallet and remove all doubt, just as you don't pay $1800 for an $18 pizza just because you're Jeff Bezos. 

I held the 9.9 in my hands at an SDCC sometime in the early 2000s (2001-03 timeframe).  Back then I was known as a big Bronze/Copper comic guy and the then-owner saw my name on my badge and invited me over to check it out (I forget what price he had on it at the time, but, it was way out of my league back then).  It didn't look like a 9.9 to me even before the SCS.  It's been too long to remember specific details, but, I remember my impression of it:  gift grade from early days of CGC grading. Not that it matters to the label-chasers out there. 

Poor scan, but OLD Label>not pressed 

[drbanner]

On 1/27/2019 at 11:53 AM, Chaos_in_Canada said:

Poor scan, but OLD Label>not pressed 

Thanks for sharing, book looks beautifully centered but I see this copy suffers from the printer roll/smear through "Canadian Super-Hero". 

[delekkerste]

On 1/27/2019 at 2:59 AM, lou_fine said:

Gene;

So, I guess you are saying that this particular CGC 9.9 graded copy was probably over graded during possibly one of their soft grading time periods.  Either that or it caught the graders, and most especially the finalizer, in a happy and generous mood that day.  

I guess that's why our wallet says that we should really be following the mantra of: "Buy the book and not the label".  Clearly, if what you are saying is true, then the purchaser followed the other manta which is to:  "Buy the label and not the book".  

All I can say is more power to him then if he was willing to spend something like $140K more just to get that extra 0.1 increment in the CGC label.  

So, I acquired (either bought or submitted) almost all of my CGC books between 2000 and 2004 before I just quit cold turkey and moved full time to collecting original art.  As a result, however, my grading standards are pretty much frozen in time as to what prevailed back then, which, despite "soft grading time periods", was almost universally more strict than what I have seen has become of grading standards over the past 10 years (to the extent that I have looked).  

The one major exception regarding the older books being, by and large, more tightly graded (even during the "soft" periods) was in the very early days of CGC still figuring things out.  I don't know what qualifies as a 9.9 nowadays, but, back in my day , there's no way that 9.9 should have gotten a 9.9 back in the period when I was actively collecting, which I can only chalk up to CGC still finding their feet very early on.  Even on the small-ish scan posted above, you can see that the upper RH corner is a bit blunted, and very slight wear on the lower LH corner, along with that print roll artifact (I very vaguely recall noticing some other minor imperfections as well; we'd need a better scan to confirm, though). I am certain that there have been other Hulk #181s as good or better than this one that have passed through CGC and did not get a 9.9 because that 9.9 was a mistake to begin with. 

I think people forget that even a 9.8 used to be a very tough grade to get back in the first few years of CGC grading (I'd send in cherry-picked off the stands Moderns and many would come back 9.6s!)  If you were collecting slabs from the outset, surely you remember when that nothing book, The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe #15 CGC 9.8, hit eBay and sold for stupid money back in the day, just because a 9.8 was so rare.  Remember "danten311" who was scooping up all the PPSS #1s 9.8s for ridiculous money? We had some chats off-line where he said, sure, it's a common book, but, he felt safe with the 9.8s...  

All of which is to say that the Hulk #181 9.9 should not have been a 9.9 either then or now, just as the "Gretzky" T-206 Honus Wagner confirmed through court testimony to have been cut/trimmed from an uncut sheet shouldn't have been a PSA 8 either over in baseball card land.  And, yet, in either case, it hasn't really mattered - for better or worse, there's only one CGC 9.9 Hulk #181 and only one PSA 8 T-206 Honus Wagner card, and people want them.

But, in any case, the 9.9 copy is no longer at the top of the Hulk #181 heap now that the original cover art has been confirmed to exist (not widely known, but, the word has been out for the past 18 months among the OA cognoscenti).  The complete story also exists; contrary to erroneous reports, it was not destroyed in the Len Wein house fire, it was merely damaged and has been restored.  

Edited January 29, 2019 by delekkerste

[valiantman]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

But, in any case, the 9.9 copy is no longer at the top of the Hulk #181 heap now that the original cover art has been confirmed to exist (not widely known, but, the word has been out for the past 18 months among the OA cognoscenti).  The complete story also exists; contrary to erroneous reports, it was not destroyed in the Len Wein house fire, it was merely damaged and has been restored.  

Sorry, all restored comic-related items are automatically 10% of their original value. 

[Kevin76]

22 hours ago, drbanner said:

Thanks for sharing, book looks beautifully centered but I see this copy suffers from the printer roll/smear through "Canadian Super-Hero". 

It looks like a smash on the black blanket...the "printer rollers" don't touch the paper. The ink goes from an ink fountain onto a metal roller (ink ball), to another metal roller (Metering roller) to the ink transfer rollers made of rubber onto the printing plate and then onto a blanket cylinder (blanket is made of HQ rubber) so if the blanket has a tear in it or a hole, there will be no ink on that spot on the paper, black is almost always the first color printed on the paper which is why you see white there, cause the paper is white before it's printed on.  
 

[tdotcbc84]

3 hours ago, delekkerste said:

So, I acquired (either bought or submitted) almost all of my CGC books between 2000 and 2004 before I just quit cold turkey and moved full time to collecting original art.  As a result, however, my grading standards are pretty much frozen in time as to what prevailed back then, which, despite "soft grading time periods", was almost universally more strict than what I have seen has become of grading standards over the past 10 years (to the extent that I have looked).  

The one major exception regarding the older books being, by and large, more tightly graded (even during the "soft" periods) was in the very early days of CGC still figuring things out.  I don't know what qualifies as a 9.9 nowadays, but, back in my day , there's no way that 9.9 should have gotten a 9.9 back in the period when I was actively collecting, which I can only chalk up to CGC still finding their feet very early on.  Even on the small-ish scan posted above, you can see that the upper RH corner is a bit blunted, and very slight wear on the lower LH corner, along with that print roll artifact (I very vaguely recall noticing some other minor imperfections as well; we'd need a better scan to confirm, though). I am certain that there have been other Hulk #181s as good or better than this one that have passed through CGC and did not get a 9.9 because that 9.9 was a mistake to begin with. 

I think people forget that even a 9.8 used to be a very tough grade to get back in the first few years of CGC grading (I'd send in cherry-picked off the stands Moderns and many would come back 9.6s!)  If you were collecting slabs from the outset, surely you remember when that nothing book, The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe #15 CGC 9.8, hit eBay and sold for stupid money back in the day, just because a 9.8 was so rare.  Remember "danten311" who was scooping up all the PPSS #1s 9.8s for ridiculous money? We had some chats off-line where he said, sure, it's a common book, but, he felt safe with the 9.8s...  

All of which is to say that the Hulk #181 9.9 should not have been a 9.9 either then or now, just as the "Gretzky" T-206 Honus Wagner confirmed through court testimony to have been cut/trimmed from an uncut sheet shouldn't have been a PSA 8 either over in baseball card land.  And, yet, in either case, it hasn't really mattered - for better or worse, there's only one CGC 9.9 Hulk #181 and only one PSA 8 T-206 Honus Wagner card, and people want them.

But, in any case, the 9.9 copy is no longer at the top of the Hulk #181 heap now that the original cover art has been confirmed to exist (not widely known, but, the word has been out for the past 18 months among the OA cognoscenti).  The complete story also exists; contrary to erroneous reports, it was not destroyed in the Len Wein house fire, it was merely damaged and has been restored.  

Very interesting insight, and for the most part, I agree with all your points.  I have read numerous accounts of this 9.9 not really being a 9.9.  But let me ask this question - Would you rather have that "perfect" 9.8, or this 9.9?  I'm seriously curious what people would say..... 

[Kevin76]

8 minutes ago, tdotcbc84 said:

Very interesting insight, and for the most part, I agree with all your points.  I have read numerous accounts of this 9.9 not really being a 9.9.  But let me ask this question - Would you rather have that "perfect" 9.8, or this 9.9?  I'm seriously curious what people would say..... 

I'll take the 9.9 any day of the week 

[delekkerste]

19 minutes ago, tdotcbc84 said:

But let me ask this question - Would you rather have that "perfect" 9.8, or this 9.9?  I'm seriously curious what people would say..... 

The 9.9...the illusion has become reality.  The label says 9.9 and, so, a 9.9 it is.  

Plus, I'd be selling it anyway, so, I'd want the one that would fetch more money, which would be the 9.9 because the label trumps the book.