Incredible Hulk #181 - is it *that* red-hot? 17 17

[drbanner]

1 hour ago, Kevin76 said:

It looks like a smash on the black blanket...the "printer rollers" don't touch the paper. The ink goes from an ink fountain onto a metal roller (ink ball), to another metal roller (Metering roller) to the ink transfer rollers made of rubber onto the printing plate and then onto a blanket cylinder (blanket is made of HQ rubber) so if the blanket has a tear in it or a hole, there will be no ink on that spot on the paper, black is almost always the first color printed on the paper which is why you see white there, cause the paper is white before it's printed on.  
 

So we can call this defect "HULK SMASH!"? 

It's a common printing defect on this book, affecting maybe a quarter of the copies (guessing)?

[Chaos_in_Canada]

33 minutes ago, Kevin76 said:

I'll take the 9.9 any day of the week 

+1

The CGC 9.9 is cut better than John Verzyl's IH181 9.8 (MH2+CVA) 

 

[Chaos_in_Canada]

3 hours ago, delekkerste said:

So, I acquired (either bought or submitted) almost all of my CGC books between 2000 and 2004 before I just quit cold turkey and moved full time to collecting original art.  As a result, however, my grading standards are pretty much frozen in time as to what prevailed back then, which, despite "soft grading time periods", was almost universally more strict than what I have seen has become of grading standards over the past 10 years (to the extent that I have looked).  

The one major exception regarding the older books being, by and large, more tightly graded (even during the "soft" periods) was in the very early days of CGC still figuring things out.  I don't know what qualifies as a 9.9 nowadays, but, back in my day , there's no way that 9.9 should have gotten a 9.9 back in the period when I was actively collecting, which I can only chalk up to CGC still finding their feet very early on.  Even on the small-ish scan posted above, you can see that the upper RH corner is a bit blunted, and very slight wear on the lower LH corner, along with that print roll artifact (I very vaguely recall noticing some other minor imperfections as well; we'd need a better scan to confirm, though). I am certain that there have been other Hulk #181s as good or better than this one that have passed through CGC and did not get a 9.9 because that 9.9 was a mistake to begin with. 

I think people forget that even a 9.8 used to be a very tough grade to get back in the first few years of CGC grading (I'd send in cherry-picked off the stands Moderns and many would come back 9.6s!)  If you were collecting slabs from the outset, surely you remember when that nothing book, The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe #15 CGC 9.8, hit eBay and sold for stupid money back in the day, just because a 9.8 was so rare.  Remember "danten311" who was scooping up all the PPSS #1s 9.8s for ridiculous money? We had some chats off-line where he said, sure, it's a common book, but, he felt safe with the 9.8s...  

All of which is to say that the Hulk #181 9.9 should not have been a 9.9 either then or now, just as the "Gretzky" T-206 Honus Wagner confirmed through court testimony to have been cut/trimmed from an uncut sheet shouldn't have been a PSA 8 either over in baseball card land.  And, yet, in either case, it hasn't really mattered - for better or worse, there's only one CGC 9.9 Hulk #181 and only one PSA 8 T-206 Honus Wagner card, and people want them.

But, in any case, the 9.9 copy is no longer at the top of the Hulk #181 heap now that the original cover art has been confirmed to exist (not widely known, but, the word has been out for the past 18 months among the OA cognoscenti).  The complete story also exists; contrary to erroneous reports, it was not destroyed in the Len Wein house fire, it was merely damaged and has been restored.  

The PSA8 T206 Wagner was sold for $2.8 million in a private sale to Arizona Diamondbacks owner Ken Kendrick in 2007.

The Wagner card was not cut from a sheet. The Wagner T206 was originally "football" shape & trimmed/cut to size (0:22 / 2:19).

There is an episode on CNBC's American Greed.   

 

[delekkerste]

47 minutes ago, Chaos_in_Canada said:

The PSA8 T206 Wagner was sold for $2.8 million in a private sale to Arizona Diamondbacks owner Ken Kendrick in 2007.

The Wagner card was not cut from a sheet. The Wagner T206 was originally "football" shape & trimmed/cut to size (0:22 / 2:19).

 

It was originally cut out from an uncut sheet purchased at a flea market in Florida in the early 1980s (as per the book "The Card").  That's the only way you would get a "football shaped" version of the card, as it would never have been cut out that way except manually from an uncut sheet.  

Mastro trimmed it down to size when he acquired it, to disguise the fact that it had originated from an uncut sheet and was never in circulation to face the ravages of time and human hands (much like the Mile High II Hulk #181s...  ).

In their book "The Card: Collectors, Con Men and the True Story of History's Most Desired Baseball Card," Daily News staffers Teri Thompson and Michael O'Keeffe wrote that the Wagner card had been cut from a printer's sheet before Mastro bought it in 1985 at a Long Island collectibles shop for $25,000.

The indictment says the card was further trimmed by Mastro to make it appear as if it has been carefully preserved for decades after it was removed from a pack of cigarettes in 1909, an act Mastro repeatedly denied for many years. The upgrade not only improved the appearance of the card, but it increased its value significantly and helped spark the trading card and sports memorabilia boom of the 1980s and 1990s.

As an aside, flipping through my copy of "The Card", I forgot that Rob Lifson was with Bill Mastro when he bought The Card back in 1985. Lifson (who now runs Robert Edward Auctions) once had one of the largest collections of Warren-era original cover art (from Vampirella, Eerie, Creepy, etc.); I bought a few pieces from him when I was collecting Vampirella covers back in the day.  Small world!

Edited January 29, 2019 by delekkerste

[october]

I always wondered what became of the rest of the cards from that. Disgusting enough that the only known uncut sheet (as far as I know) was ruined to produce "the" card, but it would be exponentially worse if they just disposed of the remainder. 

What scumbags. 

[Chaos_in_Canada]

23 hours ago, delekkerste said:

It was originally cut out from an uncut sheet purchased at a flea market in Florida in the early 1980s (as per the book "The Card").  That's the only way you would get a "football shaped" version of the card, as it would never have been cut out that way except manually from an uncut sheet.  

Mastro trimmed it down to size when he acquired it, to disguise the fact that it had originated from an uncut sheet and was never in circulation to face the ravages of time and human hands (much like the Mile High II Hulk #181s...  ).

In their book "The Card: Collectors, Con Men and the True Story of History's Most Desired Baseball Card," Daily News staffers Teri Thompson and Michael O'Keeffe wrote that the Wagner card had been cut from a printer's sheet before Mastro bought it in 1985 at a Long Island collectibles shop for $25,000.

The indictment says the card was further trimmed by Mastro to make it appear as if it has been carefully preserved for decades after it was removed from a pack of cigarettes in 1909, an act Mastro repeatedly denied for many years. The upgrade not only improved the appearance of the card, but it increased its value significantly and helped spark the trading card and sports memorabilia boom of the 1980s and 1990s.

As an aside, flipping through my copy of "The Card", I forgot that Rob Lifson was with Bill Mastro when he bought The Card back in 1985. Lifson (who now runs Robert Edward Auctions) once had one of the largest collections of Warren-era original cover art (from Vampirella, Eerie, Creepy, etc.); I bought a few pieces from him when I was collecting Vampirella covers back in the day.  Small world!

Edited January 30, 2019 by Chaos_in_Canada

[kimik]

1 hour ago, Chaos_in_Canada said:

Is that yours? If yes, how awesome and congrats! 

Edited January 30, 2019 by kimik

[delekkerste]

2 hours ago, Chaos_in_Canada said:

[ComicConnoisseur]

On 1/30/2019 at 2:02 PM, Chaos_in_Canada said:

Good stuff. 

The sports card market on fire!

Trading Cards Continue To Trounce The S&P 500 As Alternative Investments

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidseideman/2019/01/18/trading-cards-continue-to-trounce-the-sp-500-as-alternative-investments/#3dffefba2f6e

Dont know if true but according to this above FORBES article. 

 

"If a decade ago you had put your money in vintage and modern trading cards instead of the stock market, your payoff would be more than twice as big.

As of December 31, 2018, theTop 500 card Index yielded a 10-year return on investment (ROI) of 165% compared to 71% for the S&P 500 (adjusted for stock splits and other corporate actions) since December 31, 2007."

Edited February 1, 2019 by COMICCONNOISSEUR

[kimik]

6 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Good stuff. 

The sports card market on fire!

Trading Cards Continue To Trounce The S&P 500 As Alternative Investments

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidseideman/2019/01/18/trading-cards-continue-to-trounce-the-sp-500-as-alternative-investments/#3dffefba2f6e

Dont know if true but according to this above FORBES article. 

 

"If a decade ago you had put your money in vintage and modern trading cards instead of the stock market, your payoff would be more than twice as big.

As of December 31, 2018, theTop 500 card Index yielded a 10-year return on investment (ROI) of 165% compared to 71% for the S&P 500 (adjusted for stock splits and other corporate actions) since December 31, 2007."

Putting your money into Hulk 181s would have been a better play....... 

[tdotcbc84]

I don't think anyone needs to convince others on this forum, that comics can be a good investment  

 

[Darkowl]

Generally speaking, I can't notice a difference between a 9.8 and a 9.9. Then again, this is just with the naked eye. I also have owned 9.8's that should have been 9.6's.

Regardless, the grading system has never been and will never be perfect, hence the classic phrase, "Buy the book, not the grade.". That's sound advice, unless you plan on flipping the book for a profit. 

In regards to Hulk 181, I remember several years back when people were complaining about how expensive/overpriced it was, and that the bubble would burst, and blah, blah, blah. I'm so glad I didn't listen to those people, because I've made thousands off of H181 (i just stayed away from this book in the 9.8 grade).

So, if the bubble bursts, it's several years away from happening, and it's not going to be a burst, but rather a slow leak that leads to its value deppreciation. I don't even see this happening though.

The very fact that Disney is going to be making X-Men movies for the next 10 years is all the reason one needs to hop on the Hulk 181 investment train.

Putting that aside, Wolverine isn't a character that was made popular through movies. He's one of the most iconic superheros in comic book history, and that alone will prevent a Hulk 181 bubble from ever forming. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Darkowl

[delekkerste]

Even cards which hobbyist consider common, like a 1968 Topps Nolan Ryan, is actually extremely scarce when the supply is balanced against demand. There are only 10,000 Nolan Ryan rookies in professionally graded holders.

There are conservatively 10 million Americans who have a touch with professional sports, trading cards, and the brand of Nolan Ryan. Supply can never even hope to meet demand.

This is just   and belies even a basic knowledge of economics.  Looking at 10 million fans vs. 10,000 graded Nolan Ryan rookies is completely asinine because PRICE RATIONS DEMAND.  At current prices, anyone can buy a Nolan Ryan rookie because they are not scarce and supply/demand is relatively balanced.  People don't have to keep paying up over last sale because there are so few to go around.  Also, over time, I guarantee you that fewer people will be interested in Nolan Ryan (most younger fans never even saw him play) - demand will inevitably decline and the supply will remain more or less constant, if not grow in the census as more examples get slabbed.  I'd bet that, after a decade of outperformance, this sports card index (with heaps of self-selection bias here) will mean revert in a big way.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if this index, in 10 years, hasn't even kept pace with inflation from present levels.  

Hulk #181 I am less sure about, but, feel like there is already a lot baked into the cake at current prices, to the point where I don't know that more X-Men movies is any guarantee that it's a good time to hop on the IH181 investment train. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by delekkerste

[Spiderturtle]

15 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Also, over time, I guarantee you that fewer people will be interested in Nolan Ryan (most younger fans never even saw him play) - demand will inevitably decline and the supply will remain more or less constant, if not grow in the census as more examples get slabbed.  I'd bet that, after a decade of outperformance, this sports card index (with heaps of self-selection bias here) will mean revert in a big way.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if this index, in 10 years, hasn't even kept pace with inflation from present levels.  

Hulk #181 I am less sure about, but, feel like there is already a lot baked into the cake at current prices, to the point where I don't know that more X-Men movies is any guarantee that it's a good time to hop on the IH181 investment train. 

pretty much sums up sports cards vs comics

[Darkowl]

6 hours ago, delekkerste said:

Hulk #181 I am less sure about, but, feel like there is already a lot baked into the cake at current prices, to the point where I don't know that more X-Men movies is any guarantee that it's a good time to hop on the IH181 investment train. 

Nothing is a guarantee, and Disney could totally butcher the X-Men, though the more likely scenario is that Disney will make the X-Men even more popular and mainstream than what they currently are. Hard to imagine, but that's exactly what Disney does best. Look at what they did for GOTG. No one even cared about Rocket, Groot, Starlord, etc. Now everyone knows who they are. 

But again, Wolverine doesn't need the movies to maintain his iconic status. The movies are more of a bonus than anything.

I will add this though, I'm smart enough to know that I don't know as much as I think I do, and life has a funny way of flipping things upside down as soon as you think you've figured it out. In other words, I could be totally wrong about the future value of Hulk 181. 

PS. I'm actually more concerned about the value of GSX1. The value on that book was pretty stagnant, until there was word of Disney buying X-Men.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Darkowl

[ComicConnoisseur]

On 2/1/2019 at 12:29 PM, Spiderturtle said:

pretty much sums up sports cards vs comics

The Marvel and DC comic book characters have the edge over just about any other Sports/Hollywood celebrity because they don't get old and keep reinventing themselves.

Ask anybody in 1946 who would be more popular with mainstream in the future Frank Sinatra or Captain America?

Ask anybody in 1956 who would be more popular with mainstream in the future  Elvis or The Flash?

Ask anybody in 1966 who would be more popular with mainstream in the future  the Beatles or Spider-Man?

Ask anybody in 1976 who would be more popular with mainstream in the future Led Zeppelin or Wolverine?

Ask anybody in 1986 who would be more popular with mainstream in the future  Bruce Springsteen or the Watchmen?

Ask anybody in 1996 who would be more popular with mainstream in the future Nirvana or Deadpool?

Most would have picked the rock stars,but in the end the comic book super heroes won because they don't age which makes it much easier to re-invent themselves to new audiences.

This is why comic book keys in the end will be better long term investments than rock/hollywood/and sports memorabilia.

The comic book heroes keep getting new audiences do to the movies and videogames, while rock/hollywood/and sports memorabilia lose their audience as that audience gets older and dies out.

Brillant moves for Spider-Man in  2018  were 

 

 

and

Both of them introduced millions of new fans to Spider-Man.

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by ComicConnoisseur

[seanfingh]

18 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Ask anybody in 1976 who would be more popular with mainstream in the future Led Zeppelin or Wolverine?

 

How are you gauging "popularity?"  Led Zeppelin IV sold 24 million copies.  It is the 3rd or 4th best selling album of all time.  That is just one of their albums.  I'm pretty sure I and II are both diamond level in sales. If popularity means part of the Zeitgeist of the country, then I think LZ holds up pretty well.  Who in America doesn't know the lyrics to at least one LZ song?  Maybe more people than could pick Wolverine out of a lineup. I chose LZ because I think the Beatles and Elvis are even more problematic.  I have no idea what Elvis' estate makes on an annual basis, but I know it is a frickin lot.  There is more Elvis branded stuff than Flash branded stuff - I would bet a months wages on it.

Pop culture impact is nowhere near as cut and dried as you make it.

[ComicConnoisseur]

1 hour ago, seanfingh said:

How are you gauging "popularity?"  Led Zeppelin IV sold 24 million copies.  It is the 3rd or 4th best selling album of all time.  That is just one of their albums.  I'm pretty sure I and II are both diamond level in sales. If popularity means part of the Zeitgeist of the country, then I think LZ holds up pretty well.  Who in America doesn't know the lyrics to at least one LZ song?  Maybe more people than could pick Wolverine out of a lineup. I chose LZ because I think the Beatles and Elvis are even more problematic.  I have no idea what Elvis' estate makes on an annual basis, but I know it is a frickin lot.  There is more Elvis branded stuff than Flash branded stuff - I would bet a months wages on it.

Pop culture impact is nowhere near as cut and dried as you make it.

How many people though under 30 know Led Zep? 

Going forward who will keep making millions of new fans? Disney now owns Wolverine. That alone will make Wolverine`s popularity jump higher than Led Zep.

Also 24 million copies is good in the record industry,but so is the Wolverine movies that have grossed over 1 billion worldwide.

Wolverine has a much higher upside than old Led Zep from the 1970s.

All the Marvel movie heroes do. They are the new rockstars to this and upcoming generations.

btw I love Led Zep, Elvis and the Beatles,but there is no way they can keep up with the mighty Disney machine for hype. We even got the new Disney streaming channel on the way that will introduce even more Marvel heroes to new fans.

Best bet are the comic book keys in the collectibles field.

The prices we see now will look like bargains in 5 years.

Edited February 8, 2019 by ComicConnoisseur

[seanfingh]

Maybe. But guys like you and I are prejudiced - we grew up loving and collecting the comics in which all these characters began.  My nieces don't care about any superhero stuff, but they love Post Malone.  If superheroes end up being a cyclical movie fad, which is possible if people get burned out, you are overstating the impact.    

[mattn792]

46 minutes ago, seanfingh said:

Maybe. But guys like you and I are prejudiced - we grew up loving and collecting the comics in which all these characters began.  My nieces don't care about any superhero stuff, but they love Post Malone.  If superheroes end up being a cyclical movie fad, which is possible if people get burned out, you are overstating the impact.    

Over saturation is a great point, especially since Led Zeppelin was introduced into the conversation.  I know I've reached the point where I would drive off a bridge if I was subjected to any extended run of Zeppelin, AC/DC, Aerosmith, or a few other bands' songs.  Why is this?  Over saturation of course.  In Chicago, we have exactly one alleged classic rock station.  And you can pretty much set your watch to the completely vanilla song pattern of AC/DC, Zeppelin, Aerosmith, Stones, some other popular one off song, repeat.  Plus, if you can believe it, things were even worse when we had two alleged classic rock stations.  How?  On several occasions I'd flip back and forth between them, and they would literally be playing the EXACT SAME SONG. 

So yes, after you've heard "Thunderstruck" for the 347,628th time, it gets a little bit maddening.  Could the same occur if Disney were to start peppering the big screen with a dozen superhero movies per year?  Certainly seems plausible.