Batman 50 OA debacle? 2 2

[ESeffinga]

At the risk of veering a bit off topic... Who cares about increasing in value though, if the story is ultimately pointless  and without consequences?

Im sure for many that increase in value trumps creative integrity from time to time. To me, these things are often so hollow.

Who cares about whether they did or didn’t have a wedding? It’s goofy.

[Bird]

1 minute ago, ESeffinga said:

At the risk of veering a bit off topic... Who cares about increasing in value though, if the story is ultimately pointless  and without consequences?

Im sure for many that increase in value trumps creative integrity from time to time. To me, these things are often so hollow.

Who cares about whether they did or didn’t have a wedding? It’s goofy.

Some of us buy the image and some of us buy the story, although obviously oversimplifying things. If they bought the image, they likely have no complaints. 

[Mr. Machismo]

There is definitely some collectors who bought because it was the wedding issue. Significance and creative quality are two different things, with gimmicks like deaths, gender-swaps, marriages, etc. being what gets press coverage.

Look at the Janin cover. KNOWING THE OUTCOME, they took advantage of that and asked $18K...and it sold likely because of some pour soul’s nievity. 

I’d be ticked if I bought OA from this, expecting it to be from a cornerstone issue as far as culture significance goes. 

[Bird]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Machismo said:

There is definitely some collectors who bought because it was the wedding issue. Significance and creative quality are two different things, with gimmicks like deaths, gender-swaps, marriages, etc. being what gets press coverage.

Look at the Janin cover. KNOWING THE OUTCOME, they took advantage of that and asked $18K...and it sold likely because of some pour soul’s nievity. 

I’d be ticked if I bought OA from this, expecting it to be from a cornerstone issue as far as culture significance goes. 

"item not as described"

[Dokstarr]

1 hour ago, Mr. Machismo said:

There is definitely some collectors who bought because it was the wedding issue. Significance and creative quality are two different things, with gimmicks like deaths, gender-swaps, marriages, etc. being what gets press coverage.

Look at the Janin cover. KNOWING THE OUTCOME, they took advantage of that and asked $18K...and it sold likely because of some pour soul’s nievity. 

I’d be ticked if I bought OA from this, expecting it to be from a cornerstone issue as far as culture significance goes. 

I was actually going to post a topic very similar to this - obviously in response to the Batman wedding.

I was wondering how people feel who prebuy art. Obviously this cover is a big example, but another example of an event falling through was just Kitty's wedding in X-men about 2 months ago I would feel unhappy if I bought a wedding cover and then they never got married.

I agree with Mr. Machismo - I saw the post last month about the Batman 50 artwork and cover, and it just feels kind of crappy to hype it up like that knowing that it was going to be a big letdown and there would be no wedding in the "wedding issue". Obviously an artist deserves to get paid - but with an issue that everyone knows is going to be a letdown/controversial they should've held back until after release

I also would be let down if I bought something that I thought was going to be a significant event that never occurred. Hopefully storywise King saves it though, because right now it seems like every other Batman story where he loses his love. I feel like better versions of stories like this just happened at the end of New 52 where he breaks off his engagement and becomes Batman again, or from a few years before where he is going to get married (to Natalya) and retire Batman but she is killed (thrown out of a helicopter smashing into the Bat-signal).

[malvin]

Buying OA based on "key events" is always risky, especially if you do it before the event and essentially speculate on the significance of the event.

Even buying OA after the event is risky if the "event" is the sole reason for the premium.  I recall a few years ago Spiderman revealing his identity was a very big deal, and McNiven priced those pages high (as it is his right).  Someone did buy those pages (not sure if he paid the asking price) but that was event "undone" later and if the buyer paid the asking price, he would be lucky to recover 20% of what he paid if he was going to sell them.

Malvin

[delekkerste]

40 minutes ago, malvin said:

Buying OA based on "key events" is always risky, especially if you do it before the event and essentially speculate on the significance of the event.

It seems like 99% of "significant events" that happen to established characters ultimately get undone.  Deaths, maimings, identity changes, secret identity reveals, marriages, etc.  Anyone speculating on the lasting significance of any of these is  

First appearances on the other hand remain first appearances (though, whether a debuting character remains popular/significant or not is another issue...)  

The Batman #50 cover was/is nice, but, for the price...  

[comix4fun]

10 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

It seems like 99% of "significant events" that happen to established characters ultimately get undone.  Deaths, maimings, identity changes, secret identity reveals, marriages, etc.  Anyone speculating on the lasting significance of any of these is  

First appearances on the other hand remain first appearances (though, whether a debuting character remains popular/significant or not is another issue...)  

The Batman #50 cover was/is nice, but, for the price...  

Well, "significant events" may (shall) eventually get undone.....but AT LEAST THEY ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!! 

No one who's actually read comics for at least 12 months at a stretch believes that anything lasts.

However, pages from the "death" of superman still command a premium as an event that actually occurred (even if undone). The same goes for all those "event" comics. They may not be lasting in their changes to the characters, but they last in the minds of fans which, ultimately, creates nostalgic and monetary value. 

The only thing that really destroys the "event" is when the "event" doesn't happen. 

[SquareChaos]

10 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

It seems like 99% of "significant events" that happen to established characters ultimately get undone.  Deaths, maimings, identity changes, secret identity reveals, marriages, etc.  Anyone speculating on the lasting significance of any of these is  

First appearances on the other hand remain first appearances (though, whether a debuting character remains popular/significant or not is another issue...)  

The Batman #50 cover was/is nice, but, for the price...  

I was about to post much the same thing. I have to imagine anyone dropping $20k on OA with wet ink has some idea of the impermanence of the modern Big Two print universes - I can hardly imagine it was some waif wandering in from the cold, just looking for a good place to invest some sudden windfall (though stranger things have happened).

 

A continuity reboot is typically just a few years away at any given time, and also perhaps to the point... it seems more and more the norm for artists to hold on to their work on bigger titles with a bit of a 'wait and see' attitude. I often think they end up doing more poorly in those instances on average, but that is just a gut instinct - clearly the artist did not do poorly in this instance.

[SquareChaos]

2 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Well, "significant events" may (shall) eventually get undone.....but AT LEAST THEY ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!! 

No one who's actually read comics for at least 12 months at a stretch believes that anything lasts.

However, pages from the "death" of superman still command a premium as an event that actually occurred (even if undone). The same goes for all those "event" comics. They may not be lasting in their changes to the characters, but they last in the minds of fans which, ultimately, creates nostalgic and monetary value. 

The only thing that really destroys the "event" is when the "event" doesn't happen. 

So many events are completely forgettable. More than are memorable at any rate... I'd give you some example, but, well... you know.

[delekkerste]

33 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Well, "significant events" may (shall) eventually get undone.....but AT LEAST THEY ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!! 

No one who's actually read comics for at least 12 months at a stretch believes that anything lasts.

However, pages from the "death" of superman still command a premium as an event that actually occurred (even if undone). The same goes for all those "event" comics. They may not be lasting in their changes to the characters, but they last in the minds of fans which, ultimately, creates nostalgic and monetary value. 

The only thing that really destroys the "event" is when the "event" doesn't happen. 

The Death of Superman came out 25 years ago in another era.  Not only were comic books (as opposed to comic movies, TV shows & merchandising) more popular then, but, at that point, we hadn't had every death/maiming/marriage/etc. undone.  When the DoS came out, a lot of people thought Supes might really be buying the farm, which is why Supes #75 sold millions of copies.  

It's because the whole DoS was unwound (along with a gazillion other significant events) that no one believes these events are lasting or even very meaningful anymore.  And the circulations are so low that hardly anything coming out now is really going to have a ton of long-term staying power, IMO, unless it is translated to film/TV.  So, yes, DoS pages still command a premium, because that was "fool me once, shame on you".  Almost all the other major events that have come since...definitely not as much, as those have been "fool me twice, three times, four times, etc., shame on me."  

Edited July 6, 2018 by delekkerste

[comix4fun]

2 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

The Death of Superman came out 25 years ago in another era.  Not only were comic books (as opposed to comic movies, TV shows & merchandising) more popular then, but, at that point, we hadn't had every death/maiming/marriage/etc. undone.  When the DoS came out, a lot of people thought Supes might really be buying the farm, which is why Supes #75 sold millions of copies.  

It's because the whole DoS was unwound (along with a gazillion other significant events) that no one believes these events are lasting or even very meaningful anymore.  So, yes, DoS pages still command a premium, because that was "fool me once, shame on you".  All the major events that have come since...definitely not as much, as those have been "fool me twice, three times, four times, etc., shame on me."

And imagine if Doomsday pulled a Mr. Miyagi from the beginning of Karate Kid II and booped Superman on the nose like he was Sensei Kreese, instead of killing him. The event that gets undone becomes a blue-ball non-event. 

People aren't buying those pages at premiums now because people are thrilled they got fooled. It was a big event in comics. Regardless of outcome, it happened (and everyone knew he wouldn't stay dead), and it's memorable. 

And Since DOS...we've had a Broken Back Bats get Better...and his art commands huge premiums compared to everything around it. 

And every event since, once it hits the magical 25, some guy will be aching for that nostalgic kick, regardless of who got divorced, or undone by Mephisto, or had babies with Norman Osborn, etc etc. 

The point is, events come and go, but they at least carry it out.....they don't go all Battus Interruptus on the nuptials after hyping and reselling for months. 

 

[stinkininkin]

4 hours ago, comix4fun said:

 

That one works just fine all on it's own.. Wow!

 

 

4 hours ago, Mr. Machismo said:

Stayed away from this OA for the same reason I did the bajillion DKIII covers. 

But MAN, look at this Lee piece. 

 

Thanks!  Speaking of this one, I'll have some news regarding this image as well as the Batman 50 cover image in time for San Diego.  Just sayin'...

[delekkerste]

9 hours ago, comix4fun said:

And Since DOS...we've had a Broken Back Bats get Better...and his art commands huge premiums compared to everything around it. 

And every event since, once it hits the magical 25, some guy will be aching for that nostalgic kick, regardless of who got divorced, or undone by Mephisto, or had babies with Norman Osborn, etc etc. 

The point is, events come and go, but they at least carry it out.....they don't go all Battus Interruptus on the nuptials after hyping and reselling for months. 

 

Broken Back Bats is also from that 25-years ago era and remains popular/valuable for the same reasons as DoS.  These are not good examples unless you think it's just a function of the Rule of 25, which I have always believed to be not much better than random on a statistical basis.  But, regardless of my views on the Rule of 25, I think we are simply in another era of comics history.  Circulations are a fraction of what they used to be.  People are jaded by all the ret-cons and do-overs and rebooting.  The Big Two publishers know that they can't endanger their valuable film/TV franchises by going too off-piste in the books.  Add all of those factors together and I don't think these bogus "events" are going to have nearly the same impact/resonance 25 years from now as DoS or Knightfall do today.  

Another big reason why I don't think history will repeat itself with these gimmicky events is that I'm pretty sure the average age of the Big Two's audience is meaningfully higher than it was 25 years ago.  The "Rule of 25" was supposed to work as 37 year olds longed for the nostalgia of their 12 year old selves; I don't think it's going to work with near-senior citizens longing for the nostalgia of their adult selves.   

In any case, I'm NOT defending yanking the football away from the fans at the last moment, just that the difference between what they should have done and what they did is the difference between  and .  No comparison to the big deal events of the early '90s. Chalk and cheese.

Edited July 6, 2018 by delekkerste

[BCarter27]

4 hours ago, comix4fun said:

The bait and switch and not delivering on the gimmick at all? That seems different to me. 

Eggzackly.

[BCarter27]

Disregarding that the story was a non-starter and the marketing was misleading...

I honestly thought this was going to stick (at least for a few years of interesting stories a la Death of Superman) because of the Super family solidifying in continuity. I thought that was a signal that they were ready to say "Hey, if Supes can do it, let's take Bats in a new direction and see what happens." That may not even be what the Bat-fan in me "wants" to see for the character, but I was happy they were trying things.

Nobody who dropped the asking price on any of the cover variants (and there are some incredible ones that stand on their own) was doing so thinking it wasn't going to be a milestone. At least that was my thinking when inquiring. I was willing to stretch for them because of that fact (but was late to the party.)

Anyone who ponied up want to comment?

[delekkerste]

3 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

Nobody who dropped the asking price on any of the cover variants (and there are some incredible ones that stand on their own) was doing so thinking it wasn't going to be a milestone. At least that was my thinking when inquiring. I was willing to stretch for them because of that fact (but was late to the party.)

So, that's a reasonable assumption to have thought that it was something that would stick for a few years.  Let's say they didn't pull a bait and switch and issue #50 did see the marriage happen with the expectation that it would last for a while.  Would you have pulled the trigger at $18K or thought it reasonable that someone would?  What do you think it's worth without the "milestone premium"?   

[BCarter27]

35 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

The Big Two publishers know that they can't endanger their valuable film/TV franchises by going too off-piste in the books

And yet, when it comes to mining the comics for stories, the film/TV adaptations jump almost IMMEDIATELY to the big events -- Batman-Superman fight from DKR, Death of Superman, Flashpoint, Winter Soldier, Civil War, etc. This is because they can't just spin their wheels in story of the month. (Even in TV, that's less than you might think. They have to feed the season-long overplot beast.)

I would argue that comics NEED to be creating milestones in the monthly floppies to pave the way for their IP in other media. The milestone didn't work? Retcon it and try something else quickly.

Edited July 6, 2018 by BCarter27

[Mephisto]

5 hours ago, comix4fun said:

It's been hyped for months as the wedding of Bruce and Selina, with all the variant cover madness that goes along with it. No one is buying a cover to this book without knowing it's the "Batman Wedding Issue".

Haha this is literally the first I am hearing of this wedding business. I had some interest in one of the covers when I saw it pop up just because it had Joker and Catwoman but ultimately didn’t really pursue it as I don’t really buy much DC art.l and already have a Joker piece.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Mephisto

[mister_not_so_nice]

This happens ALL OF THE TIME, allthetime.

It used to happen more frequently a few years back. There were a few "collectors" (the Grail today, Sale tomorrow types) that would be quick to snap up the latest cover from whichever new Image book was picking up steam (Peter Panzerfist(or some such) comes to mind or those BLACK MASK comics). The price for what amounted to a single character commission with minimal background was insane. But they had the new hot cover from the new hot book. They got in early, riding the front edge of the hype. And then the story line fizzled out on the shore along with the 300% ROI.

I think this sort of thing really picked up with FABLES and switched to a new title every 6 months or so until it seems to have died down a bit. But every once in a while some new event comes along (DKIII, Batman 50) and people want to secure those pieces before anyone else. Anyone balking after the fact probably needs to re-evaluate their purchasing style. 

Buying early on hype and losing is one of the perils of the hobby. Like making a side deal before a page goes publicly for sale. You may overpay for the premium of securing the page instead of risking losing it on the open market.