Can Pedigree Copies be Faked?

[skybolt]

Since I'm fairly new to collecting Pedigrees and still don't own any Church copies, I wanted to educate myself a little by asking some questions. For instance, is it possible that there are books floating around out there with certain Pedigree notations, but come from different collections? I mean a lot of Pedigree books are identified with some pencil scribblings on the front cover that can be easily mimicked.

 

Now my question isn't geared towards books that cost in the thousands, and have plenty of track record for identification purposes. I'm talking about $300-$400 GA books with a couple of letters and numbers written on the cover. I realize that CGC won't give a Pedigree notation unless they can verify it by a certificate of some sort, and then by checking it for authenticity. However, let's say someone purchased an "Ohio" copy of a Fiction House book from a major dealer that has the Pedigree notation shown on the mylar label. What if that person owned another non-Pedigree copy of that same book, but in slightly better shape, and proceeded to copy the same scribblings on his book. Then prior to sending the book to CGC, they exchanged the outer mylars with the label designation. Would CGC be able to tell the difference if the scribblings are similar to other "Ohio" copies, while the outside mylar label gives additional proof that the book is a Pedigree?

 

I do realize that most Pedigree copies tend to sell at the same value as the non-Pedigree books anyway. However, with lesser known Church books (which usually sell at 3 times as much as non-Pedigree copies), is something like this even possible?! I certainly hope I'm wrong, and I'll be extremely relieved when someone explains the procedure to me, and how Pedigree copies can be verified. Like I mentioned above, my knowledge of Pedigree books is extremely limited.

[Harvey Dude]

It is possible,. Remember the Reilly (San Fran) designations on books sold after his death.

 

 

There was also the "4 Most" #2 that was given Edgar Church status when it was not a Church book.

 

Reilly book?

 

 

4 Most

[DKB]

 

Would CGC be able to tell the difference if the scribblings are similar to other "Ohio" copies, while the outside mylar label gives additional proof that the book is a Pedigree?

 

 

I can speak somewhat to the Ohio question specifically cause I asked CGC prior to buying some what I would need to verify pedigree. I don't really intend on getting the books slabbed, but I figured if it was good for CGC it was good for me.

 

I believe you have to be able to track the books back to one of the two original dealers somehow. I had certs made for the stuff I bought. However, I grabbed some Ohios from Metro and, as Metro is not one of the two original dealers, I didn't think to ask if the Metro label is sufficient. If it is, the problem you describe would be there.

 

Golden age Ohios (and many Silver and early Bronze too) have a very faint crease down the center of the book due to the method they were stored. It rarely breaks color. I believe the were folded slightly in half and kept in newspaper bags.

 

The scribblings on the books vary real widely. Grease pencil, pen, marker, regular pencil. The grease pencil was the method of choice for the Silver age and beyond books. One constant is that the same implement was used for the same batch of books. You'd expect books that came out the same month to have the exact same looking date. A Daredevil 2 sold on eBay recently (to Josh/Comiclink) and the date matched exactly the date written on the ASM 14.

 

I would imagine, of all the pedigrees, the Ohios would be one of the harder ones to fake. You have the mylar, the Ohio bend (which in some cases I think might be expected), the markings, and the provenance. Whereas anyone could take a Boston book from Metro and swap something else into the mylar.

[Red Hook]

I'll add what I know......you could attempt to fake a Green River.....but Shin Kao's compilation of a master list in 2003 was an invaluable tool to nailing down the parameters of the collection. There are other GRs out there, but there are details about the date stamped ones that would help someone verify them as authentic. And you better find the exact brand of date stamp.

 

Heck, you could fake anything, but I do think Mark Haspel has a real eagle eye. The best.

[skybolt]

Thanks DKB, that's exactly the type of information I was looking for.

 

I've sent a couple of Ohio copies that I purchased from Metro with the label, and received the Pedigree notation from CGC. I'm sure CGC did some verification work themselves to make sure.

[jediknight]

Anybudy wanna copy of a 1961 FF1 CGC 9.8 from the prestigious JediKnight Pedigree Collection?

[tth2]

Anybudy wanna copy of a 1962 FF1 CGC 9.8 from the prestigious JediKnight Pedigree Collection?

I'd rather have a 1961 copy!

[shrunkenhead]

I'd guess that the finer the pedigree, the tougher to fake.

 

How would a person fake a Church book? Or a Gaines file copy? I'd think it would be damned near impossible...you'd have to be sitting on books of comparably astounding quality, which would mean you were probably sitting on a previously unknown pedigree or something.

 

I've found CGC to be pretty handy at spotting the real deal. I submitted some Bethlehems that came back with the pedigree stamp on the label, and I had no identification or anything...but the Bethlehems have a telltale stamp on the back cover, generally.

[shrunkenhead]

Come to think of it, probably the best way to fake a pedigree would be to invent one. Isn't that what Danny Dumbkopf did with the "eastern color file copies?"

[Silver Surfer]

Just ask CGC they seem to do it all the time. Tell me I'm wrong.

[jediknight]

Rumor has it the new and improved Jedi Knight Collection is coming out to an eBay auction near you....