Are Newton Rings 'normal and acceptable'? 6 6

[Get Marwood & I]

6 hours ago, Jking3437 said:

Sorry took the pics last night after work , after finding out about this thread, are these books severe enough even to contact Cgc

I think so, yes.

6 hours ago, Jking3437 said:

Sorry took the pics last night after work , after finding out about this thread, are these books severe enough even to contact Cgc

Still yes. If you're unhappy, the extent of severity is irrelevant isn't it? Ring CGC and state your dissatisfaction firmly. Do tell us how it goes if you do 

6 hours ago, I like pie said:

I recall others saying this doesn't work with the latest holders.

Yes, I thought they were sealed. 

6 hours ago, I like pie said:

Yes. All previous version had them to a much smaller degree.

How lucky was I then, to have 200+ gen 1 and 2 cases with no rings?

3 hours ago, The Milkman said:

I had newton rings on the old holders - it bothered me then.  And when they announced "the brand new crystal clear holders with no inner wells!" 3 years ago, I though my Newton Ring days were finally over. We all know how that went...

Badly. You wouldn't deliver sour milk would you Milkman? 

2 hours ago, namisgr said:

Yep, the problem is a long-standing one, just the number of cases with it and the severity of the problem have gotten worse.

As above,  how lucky was I ????

2 hours ago, The Milkman said:

Absolutely, yes.  Take an old slab and push down on the front cover.  I bet you can get some rings to appear.  

I can't get them to appear on my remaining gen 2's.  And it looks to me like the inner well is in full contact with the outer well anyway. 

Meanwhile,  we're up to 170 participants. Tres cool

Can we get to 200 I wonder?  

[Get Marwood & I]

2 hours ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

2 hours ago, namisgr said:

First, ask constructive questions to expect constructive answers.  You're way behind the curve in understanding the history and nature of the problem with the rings, much of which is written about at length already in different threads.

Thank you. I can appreciate your position of what a constructive question is. I will take your suggestion under advisement

 

Instead of taking pot shots at each other, why not aim them at CGC. I don't profess to know the full history. The point of this particular thread is to compel CGC to finally, and satisfactorily,  acknowledge the problem, provide a decent interim solution, and agree to engineer it out of existence. I want them to stop telling us NRs are normal and / or acceptable. As the clear majority of the voters here have made clear - They. Are. Not.

If I'm wrong about that, so are 150+ of us. 

To my knowledge, this thread is the first time I have seen CGC (not the admin team) themselves respond directly to the board members about a service issue. So we're making progress because scores of people complaining together as one is more powerful than scattered individual complaints.

Success equals ridding the product of NRs once and for all and, in the meantime, providing an adequate refund / reholdering service to those who aren't satisfied. We should all keep pressing for that (no pressing jokes please). Nothing changes if we accept an inferior product and allow it to be normalised.  We absolutely should not allow CGC to determine the reholder severity criteria. I don't buy a brand new car and accept delivery of it with a few scratches because they're only a few. No scratches. No newton rings. 

Nuff said?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

7 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Yes, I thought they were sealed. 

Why would Mr. Namisgr suggest the method he did? I asked him if he had tried it, but he declined. Maybe he did not realize the holders were the new version, and/or misunderstood my question due to my admitted ignorance.

It was mentioned prior that the method can't be used with the new Holders, so I thought, maybe Namisgr knew a method to do it. so I asked.

I am still confused...can it or can it not be done? Another member kindly answered it can not be done. I assumed Namisgr knows this stuff a lot better than me.....obviously.....and had found a method that worked on the new Holders.

Another member mentioned that he was able to make the rings go away, and was nice enough to clarify that yes, he can make the rings reappear on the old Holders,by pressing together. i have not seen a comment that the same is true for the new Holders. So, either the new Holders with rings can not be "improved" without creative invasion of some type and, I assume a re-seal, which to me would be tampering and will not really solve the problem anyway, because it is possible that the rings would reappear with pressure, because....apparently to many...is that the phenomenon is due to the material in contact with each other (I am not in that camp, the reasons being as I discussed earlier in the thread.

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

Why would Mr. Namisgr suggest the method he did? I asked him if he had tried it, but he declined. Maybe he did not realize the holders were the new version, and/or misunderstood my question due to my admitted ignorance.

It was mentioned prior that the method can't be used with the new Holders, so I thought, maybe Namisgr knew a method to do it. so I asked.

I am still confused...can it or can it not be done? Another member kindly answered it can not be done. I assumed Namisgr knows this stuff a lot better than me.....obviously.....and had found a method that worked on the new Holders.

Another member mentioned that he was able to make the rings go away, and was nice enough to clarify that yes, he can make the rings reappear on the old Holders,by pressing together. i have not seen a comment that the same is true for the new Holders. So, either the new Holders with rings can not be "improved" without creative invasion of some type and, I assume a re-seal, which to me would be tampering and will not really solve the problem anyway, because it is possible that the rings would reappear with pressure, because....apparently to many...is that the phenomenon is due to the material in contact with each other (I am not in that camp, the reasons being as I discussed earlier in the thread.

 

Yes, you can't slip paper in the new cases to reduce rings, the person who hinted it was possible never came back to clarify. I've tried myself to no avail.

Edited September 7, 2018 by ADAMANTIUM

[Get Marwood & I]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

Why would Mr. Namisgr suggest the method he did? I asked him if he had tried it, but he declined. Maybe he did not realize the holders were the new version, and/or misunderstood my question due to my admitted ignorance.

It was mentioned prior that the method can't be used with the new Holders, so I thought, maybe Namisgr knew a method to do it. so I asked.

I am still confused...can it or can it not be done? Another member kindly answered it can not be done. I assumed Namisgr knows this stuff a lot better than me.....obviously.....and had found a method that worked on the new Holders.

Another member mentioned that he was able to make the rings go away, and was nice enough to clarify that yes, he can make the rings reappear on the old Holders,by pressing together. i have not seen a comment that the same is true for the new Holders. So, either the new Holders with rings can not be "improved" without creative invasion of some type and, I assume a re-seal, which to me would be tampering and will not really solve the problem anyway, because it is possible that the rings would reappear with pressure, because....apparently to many...is that the phenomenon is due to the material in contact with each other (I am not in that camp, the reasons being as I discussed earlier in the thread.

 

We're up to 22 pages and the thread hasn't been locked or poofed. That's because we're all staying civil. Lets keep it that way is all I'm saying. Don't give them a reason to lock it 

[Get Marwood & I]

2 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Yes, you can't slip paper in the new cases to reduce rings, the person who hinted it was possible never came back to clarify. I've tried myself to no avail.

What! Who was it!? I'll release the hounds! 

Joking.

Let's keep all the pressure on CGC. They're reading this. The cause is reasonable. We want a ring free case. It's a visual medium. Rings kill the visuals.  It can't stand. The ball is in their court to respond reasonably. They haven't done so yet. 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

23 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Instead of taking pot shots at each other,

That was not my motivation. 

 

23 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

why not aim them at CGC. I

I did. We discussed that earlier in the Thread.

 

23 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Nuff said?

Not yet, and I will explain why. There is an understanding by our Host that there is a problem. the Host has stated it is a normal phenomenon and light refraction issue. The Host acknowledges there are "degrees" of the phenomenon, and some 'degrees" reach the threshold of what the Host deems is worthy of a do over. Granting for a moment that the Host has every business Right to set whatever conditions it wants in the matter, regardless of consequences, it is not progress.

Yes, I have been questioning the theory presented as the prevalent reason...a phenomenon of light refraction. I explained why I questioned this singular theory. The Host has certainly had  more than enough time....3 years?....to research the issue. I explained about polymers, co-polymers. Barex 210, heat extuded product, contamination, etc. Has the Host mentioned that there has been engineering research in this regard, and research into the product.... previously and presently......used for the Holders?

PMG and the Host (and NGC) are part of the same entity. At one time, there was a slight visual aberration with PMG slabs, that had a blue/green tint, it was not exactly unsightly and was certainly not a Newton problem by any stretch of the imagination. It was a bit of a clarity  problem on certain Notes, depending on the color of the Note.

Around March of 2016  or so, PMG came out with new Holders. It was (and is) an inert material. It is extremely high quality, and I would state the best available ...and matched only by the Mylar D that Denly's of Boston offered at the time. but as far as TPGs there was no better and in my opinion still isn't.

The Holders.... in their Construct...are sealed, and the surfaces in direct contact with each other. I should mention these holders were the 3rd Design, as I recall.

So, the newtons? Why not in this product?

Edited September 7, 2018 by Mr.Mcknowitall
because I hit the wrong key, and the post posted at Mylar D before I was finished. Sorry....

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

21 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Yes, you can't slip paper in the new cases to reduce rings, the person who hinted it was possible never came back to clarify. I've tried myself to no avail.

That is exactly the info I wanted to know. Then there is not a method that can be used on the new Holders, like the old Holders. Thank you. That helps me and my position of the why a lot.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

21 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

We're up to 22 pages and the thread hasn't been locked or poofed. That's because we're all staying civil. Lets keep it that way is all I'm saying. Don't give them a reason to lock it 

I am certainly not doing so. I am being VERY serious, and if there is an impression otherwise, I can not control that.

[Get Marwood & I]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

That was not my motivation. 

 

I did. We discussed that earlier in the Thread.

 

Not yet, and I will explain why. There is an understanding by our Host that there is a problem. the Host has stated it is a normal phenomenon and light refraction issue. The Host acknowledges there are "degrees" of the phenomenon, and some 'degrees" reach the threshold of what the Host deems is worthy of a do over. Granting for a moment that the Host has every business Right to set whatever conditions it wants in the matter, regardless of consequences, it is not progress.

Yes, I have been questioning the theory presented as the prevalent reason...a phenomenon of light refraction. I explained why I questioned this singular theory. The Host has certainly had  more than enough time....3 years?....to research the issue. I explained about polymers, co-polymers. Barex 210, heat extuded product, contamination, etc. Has the Host mentioned that there has been engineering research in this regard, and research into the product.... previously and presently......used for the Holders?

PMG and the Host (and NGC) are part of the same entity. At one time, there was a slight visual aberration with PMG slabs, that had a blue/green tint, it was not exactly unsightly and was certainly not a Newton problem by any stretch of the imagination. It was a bit of a clarity  problem on certain Notes, depending on the color of the Note.

Around March of 2016  or so, PMG came out with new Holders. It was (and is) an inert material. It is extremely high quality, and I would state the best available ...and matched only by the Mylar D that D

I remember you saying you'd tried to discuss this with them, yes. I suspect you know more about it than they do. I would like to know what causes it Mr McD, for sure, out of interest. But the 'why' is a side issue to the main thrust of this poll. Getting back to my new car analogy, I don't care what caused them scratches. I just want them gone. And I want the garage owner to stop telling me that a small number of them are to be expected and acceptable. They're not.

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

Just now, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

I am certainly not doing so. I am being VERY serious, and if there is an impression otherwise, I can not control that.

Ok, no worries 

[I like pie]

4 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Ok, no worries 

But but....it's FRIDAY!

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

3 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I remember you saying you'd tried to discuss this with them, yes. I suspect you know more about it than they do. I would like to know what causes it Mr McD, for sure, out of interest. But the 'why' is a side issue to the main thrust of this poll. Getting back to my new car analogy, I don't care what caused them scratches. I just want them gone. And I want the garage owner to stop telling me that a small number of them are to be expected and acceptable. They're not.

 

 

The why is known, by the Host, IMHO. the Host can certainly enlighten the members, and explain why the PMG inert Holders do not have Rings, when the surfaces are in direct contact with each other, which seems to be in contradiction to the light refraction phenomenon. The side issue, unfortunately, is the issue.

[ADAMANTIUM]

13 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

36 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Yes, you can't slip paper in the new cases to reduce rings, the person who hinted it was possible never came back to clarify. I've tried myself to no avail.

That is exactly the info I wanted to know. Then there is not a method that can be used on the new Holders, like the old Holders. Thank you. That helps me and my position of the why a lot.

I don't know about light refraction, but I will say that Newton rings are caused by two plastics touching  Whether light causes this contact to show up, I do not know....

On my Moon Knight sketch it was basically a blank white cover with an ink sketch on top. The Newton Rings on it did not show as rainbow colors.... they looked more like air bubbles that were grey to a certain extent. I don't know if this was because there was no "color" to the book in the slab or not....but the rings muddied up the clarity to the point that it was really splotchy.

Give me a second and I'll get on my phone and upload pics as an example to this post...  all done @Mr.Mcknowitall

Edited September 7, 2018 by ADAMANTIUM

[Get Marwood & I]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

The why is known, by the Host, IMHO. the Host can certainly enlighten the members, and explain why the PMG inert Holders do not have Rings, when the surfaces are in direct contact with each other, which seems to be in contradiction to the light refraction phenomenon. The side issue, unfortunately, is the issue.

I think that issue - the possibility of porky pie telling - is slightly left of the side issue which itself is an issue.

Well, it is Friday  

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1 minute ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I don't know about light refraction, but I will say that Newton rings are caused by to plastics touching  Whether light causes this contact to show up, I do not know....

On my Moon Knight sketch it was basically a blank white cover with an ink sketch on top. The Newton Rings on it did not show as rainbow colors.... they looked more like air bubbles that were grey to a certain extent. I don't know if this was because there was no "color" to the book in the slab or not....but the rings muddied up the clarity to the point that it was really splotchy.

Give me a second and I'll get on my phone and upload pics as an example to this post...  

IF you have a chance to read my earlier posts, I touch on the subject....contamination, type of material and manufacturing control, heat extrusion, etc. Plastic aint' plastic...until it is plastic. The light refraction is not the cause....it is a consequence. (Of course IMHO).

[Get Marwood & I]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

IF you have a chance to read my earlier posts, I touch on the subject....contamination, type of material and manufacturing control, heat extrusion, etc. Plastic aint' plastic...until it is plastic. The light refraction is not the cause....it is a consequence. (Of course IMHO).

Changing the subject for a second, how does IMHO differ to IMO? Is not your opinion alone honest? Where noted, should I read IMO as 'I'm lying'?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

11 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I don't know about light refraction, but I will say that Newton rings are caused by two plastics touching  Whether light causes this contact to show up, I do not know....

On my Moon Knight sketch it was basically a blank white cover with an ink sketch on top. The Newton Rings on it did not show as rainbow colors.... they looked more like air bubbles that were grey to a certain extent. I don't know if this was because there was no "color" to the book in the slab or not....but the rings muddied up the clarity to the point that it was really splotchy.

Give me a second and I'll get on my phone and upload pics as an example to this post...  all done @Mr.Mcknowitall

This reinforces my opinion. Thank you for the picture.

[evilskip]

 I don't send books off to CGC,  I buy them on the "secondary" market. But the Newton Rings may be the catalyst where I bail out of this area of collecting. If there is a CGC book listed on ebay, I'm going to start asking them if there are Newton Rings. Either that or just avoid buying books slabbed since 2016.

And we can sit here and debate the cause of Newton Rings until doomsday. The real point is, they are as ugly as your sister's prom date and detract from the look of the book.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

4 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Changing the subject for a second, how does IMHO differ to IMO? Is not your opinion alone honest? Where noted, should I read IMO as 'I'm lying'?

H for humble...I am a humble kind of fellow.