What percent of existing copies of Action 1, Detective 27, Superman 1, and Batman 1 are already CGC graded? 1 1

[G.A.tor]

Keep in mind too that a good percentage of raw copies are restored/have restoration. Thumbing them up, if that’s your thing, isn’t likely to have any effect on value. 

And I suspect the unrestored copies are not being thumbed up very often or at all, but rather admired in their fortress or double Mylar safe house. 

[woowoo]

I never every did like the fortress . I have looked at a lot of key books and thought why would you do that . .I will say I always loved smelling the Golden age books more than flipping the pages

[ComicConnoisseur]

39 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

What is it about AC 1 and Tec 27 that make them so rare compared to their contemporaries ?  Is it as simple as 1938 and 1939 and the start of the hero craze ??

Both the characters in them Superman and Batman had an uncanny knack to adapt to their times to keep them in demand.

These are the two alpha dog characters whose comics have continuously been published for about 80 years. No other comic book characters come close. 80 years consecutively without interuption. Not only in comics, but that beats any other 20th century pop culture character. 

Think about it. Are there any pop culture characters that debuted pre-1938/39 that are still relevant like Superman and Batman today? Maybe Sherlock Holmes, but the list is very short for characters created before 1938/39 that are still relevant with today's audience.

 

These characters have grown from pre-WW2 to now in internet age. Generation after generation since 1938/39 has known these two characters. 

Also these two GA characters from the beginning have dominated other media they went to winning them millions of new fans along the way.

Superman= radio,animation serials, tv and movies, while Batman= serials,tv, movies, animation and now video games.

 So the key was these two characters kept themselves modern and translated to every generation they encountered making them have the most interest for the demand/supply.

 

[Chicago Boy]

29 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Both the characters in them Superman and Batman had an uncanny knack to adapt to their times to keep them in demand.

These are the two alpha dog characters whose comics have continuously been published for about 80 years. No other comic book characters come close. 80 years consecutively without interuption. Not only in comics, but that beats any other 20th century pop culture character. 

Think about it. Are there any pop culture characters that debuted pre-1938/39 that are still relevant like Superman and Batman today? Maybe Sherlock Holmes, but the list is very short for characters created before 1938/39 that are still relevant with today's audience.

 

These characters have grown from pre-WW2 to now in internet age. Generation after generation since 1938/39 has known these two characters. 

Also these two GA characters from the beginning have dominated other media they went to winning them millions of new fans along the way.

Superman= radio,animation serials, tv and movies, while Batman= serials,tv, movies, animation and now video games.

 So the key was these two characters kept themselves modern and translated to every generation they encountered making them have the most interest for the demand/supply.

 

I appreciate and understand that. My question wasn’t so much the characters but more so why these 2 books in particular don’t appear to have as many copies still in existence as their contemporaries (ie all star 8 ).  Is it print runs ? Start if the craze ? 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Chicago Boy

[G.A.tor]

8 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

I appreciate and understand that. My question wasn’t so much the characters but more so why these 2 books in particular don’t appear to have as many copies still in existence as their contemporaries (ie all star 8 ).  Is it print runs ? Start if the craze ? 

Time frame

Most all 1930s released comics are rarer in existence today compared to later year issues (1940s). Probably more of a took a little time to take hold/interest and initials print runs (risk/reward) against an unestablished market. Once Comics gained traction after a few years (beginning of the 40’s) publishers had more confidence and printed more copies (greater potential for survival rates today)

[Wayne-Tec]

11 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

Time frame

Most all 1930s released comics are rarer in existence today compared to later year issues (1940s). Probably more of a took a little time to take hold/interest and initials print runs (risk/reward) against an unestablished market. Once Comics gained traction after a few years (beginning of the 40’s) publishers had more confidence and printed more copies (greater potential for survival rates today)

During 1938-1939, the print runs were smaller (someone more qualified than I can share specifics), the public had much less incentive to keep those fewer copies because the hobby/genre wasn't a thing yet and...in the case of Action Comics #1 and Detective Comics #27, only a small percentage of those books contain Superman and Batman content. Those books don't scream Superman and Batman the way Superman #1 and Batman #1 do. The characters are featured less prominently on the covers, Batman's 1st app. came in issue "No. 27" and not "No. 1."

The combination of all the above factors makes those 2 books much, much rarer than their Superman #1 and Batman #1 counterparts.

[Aman619]

don't forget the WWII paper drives that consumed many many comics and periodicals.

[Robot Man]

I suspect there are quite a few still un-slabbed. I know of two Action #1s and one Tec #27 raw copies sitting basically unknown in collections of off the radar old school collectors just locally. I’m sure there are many more we don’t know about.

[Crowzilla]

11 hours ago, Wayne-Tec said:

What it took to acquire an Action #1 30 years ago is not what it takes to acquire one now. I don’t think there were a lot of Action #1 buyers living off of Ramen noodles and peanut butter, but who knows.

I put that as a real-life example. Had a collector friend slightly older than me in the mid-late 80s who did a cash/trade deal for an Action #1. The trade was a huge pile of Miller Daredevils and Byrne X-men, the cash part was $6500 and it took him months to pay it off. He pretty much lived off ramen noodle packs he bought 10/$1 at the grocery store until he did.  He's now in his mid-50s, lives in a modest house, works a regular job and still makes car/house payments. Outside of something catastrophic happening to his family, selling the book is the last thing on his mind. And that is one of the two raw copies I know of here in Georgia.

 

[rjpb]

1 hour ago, Wayne-Tec said:

During 1938-1939, the print runs were smaller (someone more qualified than I can share specifics), the public had much less incentive to keep those fewer copies because the hobby/genre wasn't a thing yet and...in the case of Action Comics #1 and Detective Comics #27, only a small percentage of those books contain Superman and Batman content. Those books don't scream Superman and Batman the way Superman #1 and Batman #1 do. The characters are featured less prominently on the covers, Batman's 1st app. came in issue "No. 27" and not "No. 1."

The combination of all the above factors makes those 2 books much, much rarer than their Superman #1 and Batman #1 counterparts.

What I find a bit interesting is that there are about twice as many slabbed Superman #1s than Action #1s, 143 vs. 69.  From what I've read in the past, Action #1 sold around 150,000 copies, and Superman #1 900,000. Granted there is no set % for survival rate, and perhaps no meaningful difference between say, 1/1000 copies surviving and 1/3000, and perhaps the sheer volume of Superman #1 sales meant that a higher percentage of copies were purchased by or for the types of readers who would throw them out when done. 

It does bring up the question though, if the 2:1 submission rate vs. a 6:1 original sales rate is more influenced by which collectors submit, rather than how many copies are out there?  We can extrapolate that demand and value are two major drivers of what gets slabbed vs. what remains raw, but we don't know the relationship of the current cap on high submission keys vs. how many collectors are willing to slab at all. Are there really less than 4 copies of Batman #1 for every copy of Detective #27 still out there? It certainly doesn't seem like it based on what comes to market. It may be that there are only a few hundred out of several thousand collectors with various big keys they purchased raw, that have decided to sell, or to slab for other reasons.

Edited July 29, 2018 by rjpb

[sfcityduck]

11 minutes ago, Crowzilla said:

I put that as a real-life example. Had a collector friend slightly older than me in the mid-late 80s who did a cash/trade deal for an Action #1. The trade was a huge pile of Miller Daredevils and Byrne X-men, the cash part was $6500 and it took him months to pay it off. He pretty much lived off ramen noodle packs he bought 10/$1 at the grocery store until he did.  He's now in his mid-50s, lives in a modest house, works a regular job and still makes car/house payments. Outside of something catastrophic happening to his family, selling the book is the last thing on his mind. And that is one of the two raw copies I know of here in Georgia.

 

Yep.  I know a buy who bought his for $6,000 in 1980, money he borrowed from family members and paid back.  He lives a modest lifestyle, even though his total collection is worth millions.  

[sfcityduck]

12 minutes ago, rjpb said:

What I find a bit interesting is that there are about twice as many slabbed Superman #1s than Action #1s, 143 vs. 69.  From what I've read in the past, Action #1 sold around 150,000 copies, and Superman #1 900,000.

I know of several un-slabbed Superman 1s that have a coupon clipped.  I know of others that are un-slabbed probably because they were restored.  There might be many reasons why, viewed from the perspective of print runs, as a percentage fewer Superman 1s have been slabbed to date.

[G.A.tor]

31 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

I suspect there are quite a few still un-slabbed. I know of two Action #1s and one Tec #27 raw copies sitting basically unknown in collections of off the radar old school collectors just locally. I’m sure there are many more we don’t know about.

That’s my point. There are many many many older time collectors that have, or know of copies in collections etc that are not active or publicly plugged in. 

The existing slabbed number is a good representation across the type of conditions etc, but represent a relatively low number of existing copies “known” out there 

[Mr bla bla]

26 minutes ago, Crowzilla said:

I put that as a real-life example. Had a collector friend slightly older than me in the mid-late 80s who did a cash/trade deal for an Action #1. The trade was a huge pile of Miller Daredevils and Byrne X-men, the cash part was $6500 and it took him months to pay it off. He pretty much lived off ramen noodle packs he bought 10/$1 at the grocery store until he did.  He's now in his mid-50s, lives in a modest house, works a regular job and still makes car/house payments. Outside of something catastrophic happening to his family, selling the book is the last thing on his mind. And that is one of the two raw copies I know of here in Georgia.

 

I wouldnt live in a trailer park for 10 years on noodles without family to be able to purchase an Action 1. Just sayin ....

[Mr bla bla]

1 hour ago, Aman619 said:

don't forget the WWII paper drives that consumed many many comics and periodicals.

 Hmm ... sad.

[sfcityduck]

21 hours ago, Wayne-Tec said:

 

It would take an extreme level of discipline for a non-super wealthy collector to say no to that incentive and keep their Action #1 raw, in their own private collections. I’m sure it happens, just don’t know how many examples there are of that out there.

No, all it takes is a fanaticism about comic books.  As I said, I know a guy who started collecting in the 60s, owns complete runs of Action, Detective, Superman, Batman, and many more, including all Marvels, has a high grade Archie 1, has a pristine Reform School Girl and lots of high grade GGA, Barks, etc., and, is perfectly content to live a modest life.  He makes enough to support his middle class lifestyle, so he doesn't have any incentive to sell his Archie 1 for the $150K+ it would bring.  After all, he bought in the 1970s for $200 and he doesn't miss that money (even though it was one of biggest purchases comparatively).  He's in his mid-60s.

And there were a LOT of folks collecting comics from 1964 onward, many who bought what we now view as astronomically valuable books that should be encased in plastic for prices that don't engender that sort of thinking in them.

[Chicago Boy]

43 minutes ago, rjpb said:

What I find a bit interesting is that there are about twice as many slabbed Superman #1s than Action #1s, 143 vs. 69.  From what I've read in the past, Action #1 sold around 150,000 copies, and Superman #1 900,000. Granted there is no set % for survival rate, and perhaps no meaningful difference between say, 1/1000 copies surviving and 1/3000, and perhaps the sheer volume of Superman #1 sales meant that a higher percentage of copies were purchased by or for the types of readers who would throw them out when done. 

It does bring up the question though, if the 2:1 submission rate vs. a 6:1 original sales rate is more influenced by which collectors submit, rather than how many copies are out there?  We can extrapolate that demand and value are two major drivers of what gets slabbed vs. what remains raw, but we don't know the relationship of the current cap on high submission keys vs. how many collectors are willing to slab at all. Are there really less than 4 copies of Batman #1 for every copy of Detective #27 still out there? It certainly doesn't seem like it based on what comes to market. It may be that there are only a few hundred out of several thousand collectors with various big keys they purchased raw, that have decided to sell, or to slab for other reasons.

since you posted sales numbers maybe you could help me out with info pertaining to Tec 27 specificallyu.  Ive never been able to get an idea of print runs or sales on that book.  I know of the Action 1 print run of 207k and now what your saying is that they sold approx. 150k of that 207.  What about the Dark Knight ?  Do you know or have an idea ??

[Wayne-Tec]

30 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

That’s my point. There are many many many older time collectors that have, or know of copies in collections etc that are not active or publicly plugged in. 

The existing slabbed number is a good representation across the type of conditions etc, but represent a relatively low number of existing copies “known” out there 

CGC has slabbed 69 copies of Action #1. What was your estimate for total number of remaining copies?

[pemart1966]

8 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

since you posted sales numbers maybe you could help me out with info pertaining to Tec 27 specificallyu.  Ive never been able to get an idea of print runs or sales on that book.  I know of the Action 1 print run of 207k and now what your saying is that they sold approx. 150k of that 207.  What about the Dark Knight ?  Do you know or have an idea ??

Where does the 207K figure come from?  Sounds like a pretty (no pun intended) odd number...

[rjpb]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

since you posted sales numbers maybe you could help me out with info pertaining to Tec 27 specificallyu.  Ive never been able to get an idea of print runs or sales on that book.  I know of the Action 1 print run of 207k andThnow what your saying is that they sold approx. 150k of that 207.  What about the Dark Knight ?  Do you know or have an idea ??

My numbers were quoted from memory, and may be slightly off. I thought I'd read that the print run for Action #1 was 150K, and that it was largely a sell-out, meaning few remaindered or returned copies. I'll defer to your 207K number, which sounds pretty specific, though it could be the difference between print run and actual sold copies.

I don't recall reading numbers for Detective #27 anywhere, though I would imagine there wasn't a bump, or at least not much of one, over the print run of the previous issue. DC was willing to gamble with more costumed heroes due to the success of Superman, but that doesn't mean they would automatically expect the same response. 

As I recall, the first of 3 print runs for Superman #1 was 500,000 copies. This book was published around the same time, maybe a month after, Detective #27. Superman was already a success, and no doubt the initial run numbers were influenced by Action comics sales figures, which I imagine were better than those of Detective.  In addition the quarterly status potentially gave it a longer shelf life, anticipating more sales. I 'd have to guess that the print run for Tec #27 was substantially less than that.  FWIW, the census for slabbed copies of Tec #27 are very similar to those for Action #1.