Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[blazingbob]

Thank you for posting my return policy but this issue is a lot different then what is being described in this thread.

 

[MetalPSI]

Just now, Mystafo said:

The graded comic holder is in essence "Schrodinger's box" as until its opened and it's contents observed the actual state of the contents is governed by probability?

No it should be what's stated on the label, and if it's not then another inspection would be required. 

[Artboy99]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

Disagree, for the reasons stated above. Any judge is going to look at that and say "open the container, dummy", especially given the reality of situations like this. The container is irrelevant, and has no value by itself. The book is where all the value resides. 

My question for you is: why wouldn't you, as a seller, stand behind what you're selling....?

Yes, I agree I have sold you a 3rd party graded item in it's sealed case and you purchased the item as is also accepting that it is a 3rd party graded item.

The moment you open the slab it ceases to have the "integrity" of the 3rd party grade. In effect it is no longer what I sold you regardless of the contents.

If the buyer wants to go after the 3rd party then so be it, the seller cant be responsible for this. If this becomes legal precedence ( somehow )then no sellers will ever sell slabbed books again, they become treated like raw books and the slabbing process become irrelevant and fades away to nothingness. The slabbing/ 3rd party grading process is to create an item that is agreed upon by both the seller and the buyer to fascilitate online item sales. In this case we must assume the slab was not tampered with or altered, if it exhibited any tampering or altering then yes the seller is responsible.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Mystafo said:

The graded comic holder is in essence "Schrodinger's box" as until its opened and it's contents observed the actual state of the contents is governed by probability?

That's funny.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Great conversation!

Question:  Do you believe that an eBay seller, relying on a third-party certification, should be held to a higher standard than Heritage Auctions or ComicConnect?  

Here are HA and CC terms and conditions:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heritage Auctions

Additional Terms & Conditions
COMICS, COMIC ART, & ANIMATION ART AUCTIONS

COMICS, COMIC ART, & ANIMATION ART TERM D: Comic books sold referencing a third-party
grading service are sold “as is” without any express or implied warranty. No returns of CGC-certified
or CBCS-certified comics will be accepted. Certain warranties may be available from the grading
services and the Bidder is referred to them for further details: Certified Guaranty Company, LLC
(CGC), P.O. Box 4738, Sarasota, FL 34230; Comic Book Certification Service (CBCS), 4635 McEwen
Road, Dallas, TX 75244.

COMICS, COMIC ART, & ANIMATION ART TERM G: Since we cannot examine encapsulated comics,
they are sold “as is” without our grading opinion, and may not be returned for any reason. Auctioneer
shall not be liable for any patent or latent defect or controversy pertaining to or arising from any
encapsulated collectible. In any such instance, purchaser’s remedy, if any, shall be solely against the
service certifying the collectible.

COMICS, COMIC ART, & ANIMATION ART TERM I: Although consensus grading is employed by most
grading services, it should be noted as aforesaid that grading is not an exact science. In fact, it is
entirely possible that if a lot is broken out of a plastic holder and resubmitted to another grading
service or even to the same service, the lot could come back with a different grade assigned.

Non-Auction Buy Now Terms & Conditions

Items graded through the grading companies below and sold through the Make Offer to Owner program are not returnable.
Coins, Token & Medals: NGC & PCGS
Currency: PMG & PCGS
Comics: CGC & CBCS
Movie Posters: CGC
Sports: PSA, SGC, PSA/DNA, JSA

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ComicConnect

CGC & 3RD PARTY GRADER SALES: Please note that although we do accept returns on our regular listings, all sales of comic books noted as graded by the Comic Guarantee Corporation and sealed in the CGC protective plastic casing, or any other sales of comic books graded and sealed by a 3rd Party Grader, are final.

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Ditch Fahrenheit

[Number 6]

Edited August 8, 2018 by Number 6

[Number 6]

3 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Thank you for posting my return policy but this issue is a lot different then what is being described in this thread.

 

It’s the principle: a seller standing behind what he sells regardless if it’s 3rd part graded. 

I thought it reflected well on you, but I’ll gladly delete my posts if you like. 

[blazingbob]

10 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

This is how Bob handles CGC books that actually turns out to have restoration that CGC missed the first time around:

Again,  applies to CGC books since I have had no issue with CGC not honoring their mistakes.  This policy was implemented when the Jason Ewert issue came to the market and before CGC formerly came out with their policy on Jason Ewert books that might have gotten through.   

In the case of this issue the onus is on PGX to honor their mistake.  

I would expect the same of CBCS if they made a mistake.  

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by blazingbob

[Number 6]

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, Artboy99 said:

Yes, I agree I have sold you a 3rd party graded item in it's sealed case and you purchased the item as is also accepting that it is a 3rd party graded item.

The moment you open the slab it ceases to have the "integrity" of the 3rd party grade. In effect it is no longer what I sold you regardless of the contents.

If the buyer wants to go after the 3rd party then so be it, the seller cant be responsible for this. If this becomes legal precedence ( somehow )then no sellers will ever sell slabbed books again, they become treated like raw books and the slabbing process become irrelevant and fades away to nothingness. The slabbing/ 3rd party grading process is to create an item that is agreed upon by both the seller and the buyer to fascilitate online item sales. In this case we must assume the slab was not tampered with or altered, if it exhibited any tampering or altering then yes the seller is responsible.

Yes, I recognize that a custom has developed regarding the "inviolate" nature of the slab....but just because the case has been opened, doesn't mean the book immediately disintegrates into dust (though that'd be pretty cool to see!)

The third party didn't remove the page (probably.) The third party didn't introduce restoration (probably.) Those things existed before it was graded.  That book was in the condition it was in before it was graded.

I'll ask again: don't you, as a seller, stand behind your books...? Are you willing to say "welp, the 3rd party missed it, too bad, so sad, good luck next time!"..?

In your scenario, it is a mistake. It is a mistake that didn't carry an financial liability on the third party's part (stay with me, here), because that problem already existed before it was missed by the third party.

There's a reason why 99.9% of the books I sell are books that *I* submitted...and that's because I recognize that 1. everyone makes mistakes, and 2. my super anal obsessive eyes mean such mistakes are far, far less likely, on top of CGC's fairly anal obsessive eyes, and 3. I stand behind everything I sell, because *I*...not CGC, or the other, much less reputable grading "services"...am the one who owns the book, and am the one who has responsibility for it being what I claim it is.

And Number6 raises a very valid point: if you were to get it back in the same way you sent it out...except now you're FULLY aware that it is missing something...then what?

Sell it to some other unsuspecting buyer, and say "third party graded, not my problem!"...?

That would make you now guilty of fraud.

[Artboy99]

6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Yes, I recognize that a custom has developed regarding the "inviolate" nature of the slab....but just because the case has been opened, doesn't mean the book immediately disintegrates into dust (though that'd be pretty cool to see!)

The third party didn't remove the page (probably.) The third party didn't introduce restoration (probably.) Those things existed before it was graded.  That book was in the condition it was in before it was graded.

I'll ask again: don't you, as a seller, stand behind your books...? Are you willing to say "welp, the 3rd party missed it, too bad, so sad, good luck next time!"..?

In your scenario, it is a mistake. It is a mistake that didn't carry an financial liability on the third party's part (stay with me, here), because that problem already existed before it was missed by the third party.

There's a reason why 99.9% of the books I sell are books that *I* submitted...and that's because I recognize that 1. everyone makes mistakes, and 2. my super anal obsessive eyes mean such mistakes are far, far less likely, on top of CGC's fairly anal obsessive eyes, and 3. I stand behind everything I sell, because *I*...not CGC, or the other, much less reputable grading "services"...am the one who owns the book, and am the one who has responsibility for it being what I claim it is.

And Number6 raises a very valid point: if you were to get it back in the same way you sent it out...except now you're FULLY aware that it is missing something...then what?

Sell it to some other unsuspecting buyer, and say "third party graded, not my problem!"...?

That would make you now guilty of fraud.

like all other notable sellers you cant take a return on a slab that has been opened and especially one that has now been sent to another service and graded again.

[The Lions Den]

20 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

If this becomes legal precedence ( somehow )then no sellers will ever sell slabbed books again, they become treated like raw books and the slabbing process become irrelevant and fades away to nothingness.

This...

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 minutes ago, Ditch Fahrenheit said:

Great conversation!

Question:  Do you believe that an eBay seller, relying on a third-party certification, should be held to a higher standard than Heritage Auctions or ComicConnect?  

Here are HA and CC terms and conditions:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heritage Auctions

Additional Terms & Conditions
COMICS, COMIC ART, & ANIMATION ART AUCTIONS

COMICS, COMIC ART, & ANIMATION ART TERM D: Comic books sold referencing a third-party
grading service are sold “as is” without any express or implied warranty. No returns of CGC-certified
or CBCS-certified comics will be accepted. Certain warranties may be available from the grading
services and the Bidder is referred to them for further details: Certified Guaranty Company, LLC
(CGC), P.O. Box 4738, Sarasota, FL 34230; Comic Book Certification Service (CBCS), 4635 McEwen
Road, Dallas, TX 75244.

COMICS, COMIC ART, & ANIMATION ART TERM G: Since we cannot examine encapsulated comics,
they are sold “as is” without our grading opinion, and may not be returned for any reason. Auctioneer
shall not be liable for any patent or latent defect or controversy pertaining to or arising from any
encapsulated collectible. In any such instance, purchaser’s remedy, if any, shall be solely against the
service certifying the collectible.

COMICS, COMIC ART, & ANIMATION ART TERM I: Although consensus grading is employed by most
grading services, it should be noted as aforesaid that grading is not an exact science. In fact, it is
entirely possible that if a lot is broken out of a plastic holder and resubmitted to another grading
service or even to the same service, the lot could come back with a different grade assigned.

Non-Auction Buy Now Terms & Conditions

Items graded through the grading companies below and sold through the Make Offer to Owner program are not returnable.
Coins, Token & Medals: NGC & PCGS
Currency: PMG & PCGS
Comics: CGC & CBCS
Movie Posters: CGC
Sports: PSA, SGC, PSA/DNA, JSA

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ComicConnect

CGC & 3RD PARTY GRADER SALES: Please note that although we do accept returns on our regular listings, all sales of comic books noted as graded by the Comic Guarantee Corporation and sealed in the CGC protective plastic casing, or any other sales of comic books graded and sealed by a 3rd Party Grader, are final.

 

Those terms would NOT hold up in court, were it ever challenged, I imagine.

Let's see if I can argue it in legalese: It creates an undue expectation of perfection on the part of the third party grading service, who has no financial stake in the item, and removes responsibility from the title holder, thereby creating the potential for unjust enrichment due to human error.

Yes, set aside the fact that HA owns a chunk of the Certified Collectibles Group, for the sake of the argument.

In other words, Heritage sells a Detective #168 CGC 7.0 for $25,000. I crack it, and discover it's missing the centerfold. It's now only worth, say, $5,000.

Is CGC on the hook for the other $20,000?

No! Of course not! HERITAGE is! Heritage...or whomever they represented...got $25,000 for a book that was only worth $5,000. THEY were the ones "unjustly enriched", even if by good faith error. THEY are the ones on the hook...they don't get to "win the lottery" just because CGC missed something.

That's neither just, ethical, nor probably legal. And yet, that's precisely what CGC has done...taken responsibility, often at significant cost (though there are ways to mitigate that, of course.)

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

like all other notable sellers you cant take a return on a slab that has been opened and especially one that has now been sent to another service and graded again.

So, you don't stand behind the items you sell?

[RockMyAmadeus]

19 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Again,  applies to CGC books since I have had no issue with CGC not honoring their mistakes.

In the case of this issue the onus is on PGX to honor their mistake.  

I would expect the same of CBCS if they made a mistake.  

So, PGX...even though they don't own the book...would be on the hook for several thousand dollars that SOMEONE ELSE received to which they weren't entitled...?

Because PGX made a "mistake" in counting pages...?

Set aside the oafishness of PGX for a second. Someone got more for this book than they were morally, ethically, and legally entitled to. Whether it was caught of not, that book had pages missing. It was NEVER going to be worth that amount.

Shouldn't THAT PERSON be the one who gives back the money they weren't morally, ethically, or legally entitled to...?

 

[Artboy99]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So, you don't stand behind the items you sell?

good grief.

ok let's look at this from the perspective of the buyer. Why did the buyer purchase an encapsulated copy of the book? Could it be it was purchased because the 3rd party grading service provided the peace of mind that the book was the expected grade? 

As a seller I stand behind what I sell. In this circumstance what the seller sold no longer exists it was opened then sent to another grading company ( without even being inspected by the buyer themselves. ). 

RMA I look forward to your next sales thread. Expect returns of all those slabs you sold except they will have been opened....

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

28 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

If this becomes legal precedence ( somehow )then no sellers will ever sell slabbed books again, they become treated like raw books and the slabbing process become irrelevant and fades away to nothingness.

This...

That's not true at all, and that's easily demonstrated by history. There was a time when CGC didn't exist. There was then a time when CGC was brand new and untested. CGC managed, despite a considerable resistance to them, grown into the dominant powerhouse of high grade, high value comics.

They did that by earning it.

Without CGC, there would be no $1M+ AF #15s, no $500,000 TOS #39s, no $250,000 X-Men #1.

The times that CGC makes such spectacular mistakes is so rare, it becomes headline news throughout the industry. The JIM #83 resto/no resto/resto...? Everyone talked about that. The "creep engine"? Everyone talked about that. 

Missing pages or resto is so very rare that no one is going to "lose total confidence" in CGC were it discovered that they'd made a mistake like this...and, to date, I don't think they have. Their biggest problem is QC, and getting labels correct. 

AND...people shouldn't be treating blue labels as inviolate anyways. CGC's grading is an OPINION...one an educated populace should AGREE with....not blindly accept. It's OK to crack open slabs...really! 

PGX, on the other hand, has been openly fraudulent for 15 years. And despite being openly fraudulent for 15 years, they STILL manage to stay in business. 

[blazingbob]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So, PGX...even though they don't own the book...would be on the hook for several thousand dollars that SOMEONE ELSE received to which they weren't entitled...?

Because PGX made a "mistake" in counting pages...?

Set aside the oafishness of PGX for a second. Someone got more for this book than they were morally, ethically, and legally entitled to. Whether it was caught of not, that book had pages missing. It was NEVER going to be worth that amount.

Shouldn't THAT PERSON be the one who gives back the money they weren't morally, ethically, or legally entitled to...?

 

So as a seller I should be responsible for PGX's mistake?

I have no recourse to get my money back from someone since I didn't crack it out to make sure PGX did their job?

Basically you are stating that sellers shouldn't stand behind any third party grading company since I'm not there verifying that they are doing it properly.

If you want those grading dollars you better be prepared to stand behind your ability,  mistake or not.

 

[1Cool]

9 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

So, PGX...even though they don't own the book...would be on the hook for several thousand dollars that SOMEONE ELSE received to which they weren't entitled...?

Because PGX made a "mistake" in counting pages...?

Set aside the oafishness of PGX for a second. Someone got more for this book than they were morally, ethically, and legally entitled to. Whether it was caught of not, that book had pages missing. It was NEVER going to be worth that amount.

Shouldn't THAT PERSON be the one who gives back the money they weren't morally, ethically, or legally entitled to...?

 

In this case I'd probably say yes since the slab is brand new and we have a reasonable idea who profited from it but it does open a can of worms if the slab had traded hands several times since grading.  Slippery slope for sure.

[Red84]

36 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

Yes, I agree I have sold you a 3rd party graded item in it's sealed case and you purchased the item as is also accepting that it is a 3rd party graded item.

The moment you open the slab it ceases to have the "integrity" of the 3rd party grade. In effect it is no longer what I sold you regardless of the contents.

If the buyer wants to go after the 3rd party then so be it, the seller cant be responsible for this. If this becomes legal precedence ( somehow )then no sellers will ever sell slabbed books again, they become treated like raw books and the slabbing process become irrelevant and fades away to nothingness. The slabbing/ 3rd party grading process is to create an item that is agreed upon by both the seller and the buyer to fascilitate online item sales. In this case we must assume the slab was not tampered with or altered, if it exhibited any tampering or altering then yes the seller is responsible.

To me its like selling a sealed pack of basketball cards. the value is in the sealed pack. Once opened the extra value of the seal is gone. If the pack had 5 cards when it was supposed to have 6 you wouldn't hold the seller responsible. How could the seller know.

NOTE - this is not legal advice and should not be taken as such.