Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[1Cool]

Is there any other examples of this type of issue that we can fall back on?  I was thinking of a car mechanic certifying a car and you buy it and it turns out to be junk after being torn apart from another mechanic.  Would it matter if the lemon status was found after the engine was removed or would the original guy say "hey the car ran great before it got taken apart"?

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

good grief.

Agreed, though for probably the opposite reason.

4 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

ok let's look at this from the perspective of the buyer. Why did the buyer purchase an encapsulated copy of the book? Could it be it was purchased because the 3rd party grading service provided the peace of mind that the book was the expected grade? 

Of course! But third party grading isn't infallible. And no reasonable buyer expects them to be. Why are you expecting them to be? A third party graded book only improves the LIKELIHOOD that the item is what someone claims it is; it doesn't promise perfection.

7 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

As a seller I stand behind what I sell. In this circumstance what the seller sold no longer exists it was opened then sent to another grading company ( without even being inspected by the buyer themselves. ). 

Clearly, you do not stand behind books that are discovered to have had mistakes in page count or resto.

Again...I will continue to argue that the seller is NOT selling an inviolate "package"...the slab IS NOT an intrinsic part of the comic. The "package" ONLY has value because of the comic it contains inside. Remove the comic, and the "package" loses all...not "most"....ALL value.

9 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

RMA I look forward to your next sales thread. Expect returns of all those slabs you sold except they will have been opened....

Why would I expect returns, except by those doing so out of spite?

And if both I AND CGC missed something, and there's a missing page or coupon, then you better believe I'll take it back. I got more money for that item than I deserved; why should the buyer OR CGC take responsibility for MY property...? The likelihood of such a thing happening in good faith is probably 1 in 100,000, but that's NOT perfection, and if it happens...it's my book, my responsibility.

And YES, there are even ways to properly do this with SS, too.

[RockMyAmadeus]

11 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

So as a seller I should be responsible for PGX's mistake?

No.

You should be responsible for the actual value of the book as it actually exists, irrespective of PGX' mistake.

12 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

I have no recourse to get my money back from someone since I didn't crack it out to make sure PGX did their job?

Sure you do...go back to the seller you bought it from. If you're unwilling to do that, that's your choice, and it's sometimes the wisest course of action, if not necessarily the fairest.

13 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Basically you are stating that sellers shouldn't stand behind any third party grading company since I'm not there verifying that they are doing it properly.

Why would you blindly accept anyone's word for anything? They are third party for a reason. 

And you know why CGC has the reputation it does: because enough people DID and DO verify that they are doing it properly, and hold them to account when they do not.

That's how the system works.

16 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

If you want those grading dollars you better be prepared to stand behind your ability,  mistake or not.

Of course. That's THEIR obligation. But you can't hold them legally responsible for the difference in value if a book is discovered to have a missing page. They didn't RECEIVE that difference in value...the seller did!

I'd LOVE to see someone try and take CGC to court over the scenario I presented above.

[RockMyAmadeus]

16 minutes ago, Red84 said:

To me its like selling a sealed pack of basketball cards. the value is in the sealed pack. Once opened the extra value of the seal is gone. If the pack had 5 cards when it was supposed to have 6 you wouldn't hold the seller responsible. How could the seller know.

Sealed packs of cards are made by the manufacturer, not an aftermarket third party appraiser like CGC. The "seal" on a slab has no value. 

[blazingbob]

Ok,  I get it that if you owned it,  you submitted it and they missed it your responsibility.

But if I bought it already graded,  or somebody consigned it they will be sending me some money back.

Eventually whoever "owned" it gets it back.  

PGX graded it,  if they made they mistake they financially benefited.  They don't get a free ride just because they made a conscious or unconscious mistake.  Same goes for any of the grading companies.    

 

[Red84]

4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Sealed packs of cards are made by the manufacturer, not an aftermarket third party appraiser like CGC. The "seal" on a slab has no value. 

Not true. The seal has value in that it proves review of the product by a third party. If the seal had no value then people would not grade books and graded books would not command a premium.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Red84

[blazingbob]

10 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No.

You should be responsible for the actual value of the book as it actually exists, irrespective of PGX' mistake.

Sure you do...go back to the seller you bought it from. If you're unwilling to do that, that's your choice, and it's sometimes the wisest course of action, if not necessarily the fairest.

Why would you blindly accept anyone's word for anything? They are third party for a reason. 

And you know why CGC has the reputation it does: because enough people DID and DO verify that they are doing it properly, and hold them to account when they do not.

That's how the system works.

Of course. That's THEIR obligation. But you can't hold them legally responsible for the difference in value if a book is discovered to have a missing page. They didn't RECEIVE that difference in value...the seller did!

I'd LOVE to see someone try and take CGC to court over the scenario I presented above.

Am I responsible if a PGX books lets say graded a 6.0 comes back a 4.0 by CGC?

The buyer will/has lost value since it is possible a CGC 4.0 may sell for less then he paid for the PGX 6.0 purchase.

Could PGX have made a "mistake" in grading it?

Could CGC?

The seller benefited in this case,  should I take it back?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 minutes ago, Red84 said:

Not true. The seal has value in that it proves review of the product by a third party. If the seal had no value then people would not grade books and graded books would not command a premium.

Totally true. Know how? Because I can break "the seal", and get it REsealed...and that NEW seal will have the same "value" as the old one. Why? Because the value is entirely in the book...NOT the seal.

With your pack...once THAT seal on THAT pack is broken, it's broken forever, and can't be undone. Why? Because much of the value is in the seal, NOT just the cards.

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 hours ago, blazingbob said:

Am I responsible if a PGX books lets say graded a 6.0 comes back a 4.0 by CGC?

The buyer will/has lost value since it is possible a CGC 4.0 may sell for less then he paid for the PGX 6.0 purchase.

Could PGX have made a "mistake" in grading it?

Could CGC?

The seller benefited in this case,  should I take it back?

This has already been addressed in previous posts. Gotta read the whole thread. The short answer is no, of course not. Grading is subjective. Missing pages? Not so much.

Edited August 9, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[The Lions Den]

6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No.

You should be responsible for the actual value of the book as it actually exists, irrespective of PGX' mistake.

Sure you do...go back to the seller you bought it from. If you're unwilling to do that, that's your choice, and it's sometimes the wisest course of action, if not necessarily the fairest.

Why would you blindly accept anyone's word for anything? They are third party for a reason. 

And you know why CGC has the reputation it does: because enough people DID and DO verify that they are doing it properly, and hold them to account when they do not.

That's how the system works.

Of course. That's THEIR obligation. But you can't hold them legally responsible for the difference in value if a book is discovered to have a missing page. They didn't RECEIVE that difference in value...the seller did!

I'd LOVE to see someone try and take CGC to court over the scenario I presented above.

I like the fact that you're sticking up for the folks at CGC. It's very commendable. They do work hard and they are good at what they do. I suppose eventually word will get around to avoid companies like PGX. If they can't provide a dependable service for this hobby, then they probably shouldn't provide a service at all.  

[VintageComics]

4 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

4 hours ago, 1Cool said:

But how is the seller (or E-Bay for that matter) sure you didn't break out the book and then mix up the copies you have and now are calling foul.  And add in the fact that the previously slabbed book is now in a new slab and harder to determine which book is which I will go out on a limb and say E-Bay will side with the seller on this one.  Not sure how Paypal deals with it but I see the seller winning in this case (especially if it's been a few months since the sale).

I agree.

I have to agree with this.

You can't expect to take risks, score and then get a full refund if you lose.

If you can't afford to lose, don't take the risk in the first place.

If the book was sealed in a slab when you bought it, you got exactly what you paid for.

And I sympathize with you, as someone who has been burned over my 15+ years of buying over the internet but that is real life.

[kav]

Don't buy PGX, folks.

[NoMan]

All kidding aside (or is it) about being in mom's garage, curious what the history of PGX is. Not interested enough to go research it myself and separate fact from fiction, curious if someone's got the Cliff Notes.

[Red84]

53 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Totally true. Know how? Because I can break "the seal", and get it REsealed...and that NEW seal will have the same "value" as the old one. Why? Because the value is entirely in the book...NOT the seal.

With your pack...once THAT seal on THAT pack is broken, it's broken forever, and can't be undone. Why? Because much of the value is in the seal, NOT just the cards.

It's true that the manufacturer seal on the pack of cards has a different kind of value than the seal on the comic holder; but both seals do hold value.

[MetalPSI]

36 minutes ago, NoMan said:

All kidding aside (or is it) about being in mom's garage, curious what the history of PGX is. Not interested enough to go research it myself and separate fact from fiction, curious if someone's got the Cliff Notes.

Google does

[mycomicshop]

1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

I have to agree with this.

You can't expect to take risks, score and then get a full refund if you lose.

If you can't afford to lose, don't take the risk in the first place.

If the book was sealed in a slab when you bought it, you got exactly what you paid for.

And I sympathize with you, as someone who has been burned over my 15+ years of buying over the internet but that is real life.

Agreed. That's happened to us before--some buyers want access to the potential upside of cracking a slab open to do something with it, but if it doesn't turn out like they hoped, then they want to put it back on the seller even though the seller never graded the book or had access to the comic other than as an already slabbed item.

One of the main purposes of third party grading is to remove disagreement over grading from transactions--buyer and seller can both easily determine that the item received by the buyer matches what was described by the seller. Doesn't matter whether the company is PGX or CGC, or if you're talking about a big flaw or a small difference in grade upon resubmission. When you buy a slabbed book you are buying the label and the plastic--the comic inside is along for the ride. The seller offers a slab graded X by company Y, and that's what you receive, a slab graded X by company Y. With a slabbed comic the ability to assess and vouch for the condition of the comic is delegated from the seller of the comic to the company that slabbed the comic, and the degree to which the buyer trusts the grade is up to the buyer's confidence in the quality of the service provided by the grading company.

There's a transactional checkpoint when the buyer receives the book and confirms it matches what the seller offered (slab graded X by company Y), and the slab is legit and not tampered with. At that point the seller has met their obligation to deliver what they represented in the listing. The buyer is then welcome to treat their newly acquired property however they see fit. If the buyer wants to open up the slab and take issue with the comic inside, by all means do so, but it should be buyer beware from that point on to accept whatever risks or rewards come from doing so. They're voiding the grading opinion provided by the slab (as valuable or worthless as that might be depending on the grading company), and the item can no longer be returned to the seller in the same state in which it was offered and sold.

[Junkdrawer]

21 hours ago, jcruzcollection said:

Got a rude awakening this morning. 

Last month, I purchased a PGX graded copy of X-men #1 (the eBayer even said in his description to get it CGC'd). Well...I then submitted it to CGC at SDCC since I prefer their cases. I didn't expect the grading (originally a 4.5) to come back the same, given the subjectiveness of grading. 

HOWEVER, the absolutely worst thing happened. CGC found that two pages were missing from the book and gave it the green "qualified" label (see photo). The book is still on its way back to me and will arrive Monday of next week. I don't know what to do. This is so disappointing. I'm planning to try and get a refund from eBay since I paid a premium ($4,300) for a complete book, not something that was missing pages. 

I remember reading threads not long ago about how some stores intentionally work with PGX to hide some of these flaws. I really hope this isn't the case. 

I thought this was just a helpful story for collectors. 

I think this isn’t going to end well. The only good that will come from it, is that those who now read your story will steer clear of PGX. Sad news. 

[Westy Steve]

So did the seller advertise that the book was missing pages?  If not, it's an implied "not as described", or if there is such a thing, "defects not disclosed".  This seems open and shut to me.

If I buy a radio and it arrives missing pieces, I can return it on ebay....unless its advertised that way.  Even if the seller didn't know it was missing pieces.

[kav]

9 minutes ago, Westy Steve said:

So did the seller advertise that the book was missing pages?  If not, it's an implied "not as described", or if there is such a thing, "defects not disclosed".  This seems open and shut to me.

If I buy a radio and it arrives missing pieces, I can return it on ebay....unless its advertised that way.  Even if the seller didn't know it was missing pieces.

"I'm sorry you removed the radio from its container, thus we are not liable for its condition".

[mosconi]

17 hours ago, Iceman399 said:

The fact you guys think PayPal should pony up is hilarious. 

The fact you guys think the seller should pony up is hilarious. 

 

Good luck op but your fight is not with either of the two above. 

Could the buyer then not contact PGX for resolution in this case?  If PGX refuses to make the buyer whole, then sue PGX for negligence and misrepresentation?  PGX negligently failed to count the pages, which is part of their service and not subjective, and then misrepresented their label with an unrestored outcome due to this negligence.  Would like to see how this plays out in court and what the result would be.  At least pull Daniel out of his mom's garage for a few days!