CGC census is high, but there aren't enough keys 5 5

[RockMyAmadeus]

28 minutes ago, marmat said:

Exactly, but apparently that does not apply to you.  

I'm not complaining about people arguing. Never have, never will.

THAT is the real difference.

Your contention is your opinion. This meme, this trope, that I "rarely, if ever, accept I'm wrong" is easily disproven nonsense. First, it's never noticed that the opposing side doesn't, either, or there would self-evidently be no argument, and second, it happens all the time...you just don't pay attention, because there's no drama involved. It happened in this very thread, and I thanked the person for the correction. One more time: if you don't like what someone posts, or how they post, or why they post, that doesn't give you the right to bash them about it. There's an ignore function. You should use it.

When there's someone whose "style" I don't like, I don't sit there and bash them over the head publicly about it. I quietly put them on ignore, and move on with my day, never interacting with them again (unless they interact with me.) This isn't difficult. And yet...apparently it is.

When the discussion is personal, everyone has lost. Nobody cares about this interpersonal nonsense, except the people who feed on drama.

Edited August 21, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[Prince Namor]

6 hours ago, blazingbob said:

In 1973 I lived in Yonkers, NY

I was friends with Scott Frank who collected comics,  Jaan Rank also collected. There were three of us.  Scott and I used to go to the Phil Seuling shows in NY and buy and sell.  We sold books we bought at the Phil show to the kids in the neighborhoods.

I bought my newstand copies from Urich's stationary store on Palisades avenue.   The same truck that delivered my newspapers for my paper route was the same truck that dropped off the bundle of comics so I knew the exact day/time they arrived every week.

So for history's sake I can clearly state that there were 3 collectors in Yonkers, NY.  We all had collections.  We bought and sold.  I took out ads in the monthly publication and typed my quarter page ad on a royal typewriter.  Scott and I sent our SASE (Self address Stamped envelopes) to dealers in the monthly publication to get their catalogs.  I did setup at one 3 day show in NYC.  I probably setup at the Phil Seuling monthly show.  I am not sure which one it was.  Scott and I brought would bring our books in a suitcase.  We would put plastic over the rows of books at our table.   

Sorry but I don't have any polaroids of my early days.  We didn't have a boombox back then,  we had one of those little radio's that played all those songs on AM radio that still bring me back to those days.    

Jim Payette actually had a customer over his house who knew me from the 70's.  We spoke on the phone and I remembered who he was.  We used to trade with each other.  The only other person I remember from the 70's is Mike Carbonaro who I bought my first back issue from,  FF #2 in VF condition for $60 bucks.  Mike still has the glass display case from those shows.  He is the only dealer I remember from back then.   The only other vivid memory from the shows back then are the Particle board displays. 

That'd have been so cool.

Every once in a while I'll see some old picture from an early convention, and it's just so interesting to see how it was then. 

And I loved my transistor radio. To think, Iron Man built his original suits out of that technology.

[blazingbob]

When collector's today ask me about certain books I tell them to look at a modern booth with stacks of new issues.

FF #48's were stacked that high,  you could pick the best copy out from that stack for a certain price.  

Hulk 181 was a .25 cent book.  

AS #1 was on almost every wall,  most collector's I know hated X-Men #1.  TTA #27 was a 10 ten book.  Conan #1 was a big deal back then.  You could even sell Chamber of Darkness #4's.  

I was around for the mad rush of the Howard the Duck #1 "shortage".  We rode our bikes to every stationary store trying to buy up as many copies as we could. 

The 50 cent/$1 boxes were 10 cents/25 cents back then.

I've bought two original owner collections on Long Island in the last month.  Their collections were from 1948-1953 and I'm pretty sure neither of them are in a list.  They were both collectors so for me I personally can account for 5 so far.

[Prince Namor]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm not complaining about people arguing. Never have, never will.

THAT is the real difference.

Your contention is your opinion. This meme, this trope, that I "rarely, if ever, accept I'm wrong" is easily disproven nonsense. First, it's never noticed that the opposing side doesn't, either, or there would self-evidently be no argument, and second, it happens all the time...you just don't pay attention, because there's no drama involved. It happened in this very thread, and I thanked the person for the correction. One more time: if you don't like what someone posts, or how they post, or why they post, that doesn't give you the right to bash them about it. There's an ignore function. You should use it.

When there's someone whose "style" I don't like, I don't sit there and bash them over the head publicly about it. I quietly put them on ignore, and move on with my day, never interacting with them again (unless they interact with me.) This isn't difficult. And yet...apparently it is.

When the discussion is personal, everyone has lost. Nobody cares about this interpersonal nonsense, except the people who feed on drama.

There are three major faux pas that you break on these boards that are complete nonsense, but nevertheless highly violatile:

1) Challenging someone's nostalgia

Most people don't really research facts, when it comes to nostalgia they have - they rely upon their memory, which even in the sharpest of individuals can be subjective at best - and CLEARLY subjective when it comes to nostalgic events. Many people on these boards cling to their nostalgic beliefs (regardless of if factual evidence proves them wrong) with a white knuckle death grip as if their whole world will collapse if they suddenly realize... well, I could start an argument just by specifying an example.

2) Challenging conventional beliefs

Not quite the same as nostalgia but close. An example would be, say, questioning the long held belief that Conan #4 (it IS #4, right?) is a short printed book (you may have actually HAD this debate). Some people still lose their mind's over the idea that someone would even question this. Heck I still see people on here try and defend Chuck Rozanski. People don't like to have their conventional beliefs questioned. 

Personally, I love when it happens. That's how you PROVE if your beliefs are solid or not. If they can stand up to intense scrutiny from intense cross examination - then wht you believe is most likely correct.

Unfortunately, for many people in this hobby, 'what is correct' isn't what's important.

3) You have no concept of forum hierarchy

And you shouldn't. Everyone here is just a person, just like anyone else. Maybe I shouldn't even go into this...

 

Anyway. Rock on, dude. We're friends, and there are things we COMPLETELY disagree on, yet we never fail to have civil conversations about it like adults.

I enjoy different perspectives,

It's a hell of a lot better than reading people repeating the same old BS over and over again.

[Prince Namor]

7 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

When collector's today ask me about certain books I tell them to look at a modern booth with stacks of new issues.

FF #48's were stacked that high,  you could pick the best copy out from that stack for a certain price.  

Hulk 181 was a .25 cent book.  

AS #1 was on almost every wall,  most collector's I know hated X-Men #1.  TTA #27 was a 10 ten book.  Conan #1 was a big deal back then.  You could even sell Chamber of Darkness #4's.  

I was around for the mad rush of the Howard the Duck #1 "shortage".  We rode our bikes to every stationary store trying to buy up as many copies as we could. 

The 50 cent/$1 boxes were 10 cents/25 cents back then.

I've bought two original owner collections on Long Island in the last month.  Their collections were from 1948-1953 and I'm pretty sure neither of them are in a list.  They were both collectors so for me I personally can account for 5 so far.

1948-1953! 

[paul747]

13 hours ago, comicdonna said:

This thread is cruzin for a bruisin!  

Its annoying.

[Gatsby77]

2 hours ago, blazingbob said:

When collector's today ask me about certain books I tell them to look at a modern booth with stacks of new issues.

FF #48's were stacked that high,  you could pick the best copy out from that stack for a certain price.  

Hulk 181 was a .25 cent book.  

AS #1 was on almost every wall,  most collector's I know hated X-Men #1.  TTA #27 was a 10 ten book.  Conan #1 was a big deal back then.  You could even sell Chamber of Darkness #4's.  

I was around for the mad rush of the Howard the Duck #1 "shortage".  We rode our bikes to every stationary store trying to buy up as many copies as we could. 

The 50 cent/$1 boxes were 10 cents/25 cents back then.

I've bought two original owner collections on Long Island in the last month.  Their collections were from 1948-1953 and I'm pretty sure neither of them are in a list.  They were both collectors so for me I personally can account for 5 so far.

Thank you.

_This_ is what I've been waiting for in this thread. Anecdotal testimony from folks who were actually there in the mid-60s (or earlier).

Example 1:

My uncle was a childhood comic collector in the 1950s in Cleveland, Ohio -- I'm now holding his collection of 400+ books. Almost no superhero, but heavy representation of Mad Magazine (beginning with # 20), ducks, Dell western and war. He also had a subscription to the early Classics reprints -- has kept more than 100 of the 168 or so issue run to this day -- although only 15% are first editions.

He was most certainly a "collector' in 1955-1958. He was also a varsity high school athlete and student body president of his high school. And he most certainly did not appear in any fan literature at the time.

I'm sure there were hundreds of anonymous collectors (if not more) like him in nearly every state even in the late '50s, let alone the late '60s.

Example 2:

Given the ginormous print runs of books like FF # 48 and Iron Man # 1, there's no way I'll ever believe comic collecting wasn't in full force by the late '60s.

[Skeptic_Kepp]

3 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

There are three major faux pas that you break on these boards that are complete nonsense, but nevertheless highly violatile:

1) Challenging someone's nostalgia

Most people don't really research facts, when it comes to nostalgia they have - they rely upon their memory, which even in the sharpest of individuals can be subjective at best - and CLEARLY subjective when it comes to nostalgic events. Many people on these boards cling to their nostalgic beliefs (regardless of if factual evidence proves them wrong) with a white knuckle death grip as if their whole world will collapse if they suddenly realize... well, I could start an argument just by specifying an example.

2) Challenging conventional beliefs

Not quite the same as nostalgia but close. An example would be, say, questioning the long held belief that Conan #4 (it IS #4, right?) is a short printed book (you may have actually HAD this debate). Some people still lose their mind's over the idea that someone would even question this. Heck I still see people on here try and defend Chuck Rozanski. People don't like to have their conventional beliefs questioned. 

Personally, I love when it happens. That's how you PROVE if your beliefs are solid or not. If they can stand up to intense scrutiny from intense cross examination - then wht you believe is most likely correct.

Unfortunately, for many people in this hobby, 'what is correct' isn't what's important.

3) You have no concept of forum hierarchy

And you shouldn't. Everyone here is just a person, just like anyone else. Maybe I shouldn't even go into this...

 

Anyway. Rock on, dude. We're friends, and there are things we COMPLETELY disagree on, yet we never fail to have civil conversations about it like adults.

I enjoy different perspectives,

It's a hell of a lot better than reading people repeating the same old BS over and over again.

Great post.

I personally enjoy reading threads where RMA is arguing. Why? The more both sides argue, the more information I google. These debates are great for people like me just getting back into the hobby after being out for decades. And while some may find these arguments exhausting, you do have the choice to not argue, and others reading the thread have the option to not read RMA's walls of text.

RMA has quoted and disagreed with a post of mine in the past. I could have initiated an argument. However, I didn't. I saw how good of a debater he was, and I wasn't willing to put in the work to debate him, but the interesting thing is that RMA didn't continue to try and push me into one either. I spent about a decade arguing on Facebook trying to push back against the tide of dis/misinformation that is the Facebook cesspool, but I quit Facebook about 2 years ago because I don't like to debate anymore. So, I don't do it unless I'm super bored.

Will I ever tango with RMA? Maybe. But if I do, it will be my choice to, and I definitely won't take it personal. And I'll definitely do my best to read what he actually types.

Moral of the story: If you don't like playing with RMA, then don't. I don't understand why that is so difficult to grasp.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Skeptic_Kepp

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Thank you.

_This_ is what I've been waiting for in this thread. Anecdotal testimony from folks who were actually there in the mid-60s (or earlier).

Is that what Bob said..? Or did he say "in 1973 I lived in Yonkers, NY"...?

6 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

He was most certainly a "collector' in 1955-1958. He was also a varsity high school athlete and student body president of his high school. And he most certainly did not appear in any fan literature at the time.

There wasn't any fan literature at the time for him to appear in. "Appearing in fan literature" is a tiny, relatively unimportant part of the argument. 

Jerry Bails used to write to the pages of JLA under different names, to see how many Julius Schwartz would publish. Is there ANY letter in JLA #4 that is NOT from Bails under a pseudonym...?

8 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

I'm sure there were hundreds of anonymous collectors (if not more) like him in nearly every state even in the late '50s, let alone the late '60s.

I know pointing this out might be offensive, but that statement is speculation. 

As far as there being a thriving "anonymous" community of collectors in the late 50s, I'll post this picture:

and this one:

and this one:

...and also point out that there was a very real backlash against comics in the mid 50s, reaching all the way to the Congress of the United States, that nearly destroyed the entire industry, and certainly destroyed EC.

...but there were hundreds, maybe thousands, of anonymous collectors out there, just waiting for fandom to organize itself...?

I'll take "unchallengable statements for $1,000" Alex.

17 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Given the ginormous print runs of books like FF # 48 and Iron Man # 1, there's no way I'll ever believe comic collecting wasn't in full force by the late '60s.

As stated before, "ginormous" print runs doesn't mean "comic collecting was in full force (whatever "full force" means) by the late 60s." 

1. Readers formed the vast bulk of the purchases of comics in the 60s. Readers don't today, and didn't then, usually translate into collectors.

2. Speculators...seeing what the really "old" comics of the 30s and 40s were worth, AND that virtually new comics like FF #1 and AF #15 were selling for as much as $10 (!!!) by the mid 60s, wanted to cash in. Speculators don't today, and didn't then, usually translate into collectors.

Walt Disney's Comics & Stories had SALES...not print runs, SALES...in the MILLIONS in the 50s, if the reports published in Overstreet and elsewhere are to believed (and there's no reason to doubt them.) Do those "ginormous" print runs mean comic collecting was in full force by the early 50s?

Captain Marvel was such a huge seller in the 40s, National (DC) went to great lengths to put Fawcett out of business...which they eventually succeeded in doing. Do those "ginormous" print runs signal comic collecting being in full force during WWII...?

And why does a statement like "there were way more than 1,000 collectors attending conventions by 1966", when there's absolutely ZERO evidence of such a thing, get a complete and total pass...?

I look forward to continuing a good debate, without the personal commentary.

[NoMan]

Open question:

Why do you think in Ballmann's book on the '64 NYC Comicon he listed the confirmed number of attendees at 56 but followed with ""it is likely there were more." 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I've defined what I mean by "collector", and if other people have different definitions, they have different definitions. I don't define a kid (12 and under) who buys comics and gathers them by virtue of not throwing them out to be a "collector." That doesn't mean a kid couldn't be a collector...but most kids were not.

I didn't collect comics as a kid. I collected coins. I started when I was 10. My parents approved of my hobby, and encouraged it. My coins were never in danger of being spent by them because they were "just pocket change, cluttering up the house." I purchased Whitman folders and systematically cataloged and organized my collection, seeking out examples I didn't have, and finding and gathering with other collectors to talk about them.

If someone is going to understand the larger point I'm making, they have to understand...they don't have to agree with...but they at least have to understand where I am coming from.

Edgar Church was a collector. So was Lamont Larson. Pop Hollinger, on the other hand, was not. Neither was Stan Lee. Bill Gaines might have been a collector, or he might just have had a long view of history, when he set aside his EC file copies. I doubt he looked at them in the interim between filing them in 1950-1955, and showing them to Bob Overstreet and Russ Cochran, 40 years later. I don't classify someone who files something away and never looks at them again to be a "collector."

If your definition is different, whoever you are, I have no problem with that. But if you're going to understand where I'm going from, and not call me "insane", or "lunatic", or "crazy", as some have done, then you need to understand my definition...even if you don't agree.

[Prince Namor]

I think we’re fooled into believing that all of those people were ‘collectors’ who read comics back then because over the last 30 years we’ve practically made it mandatory to buy a bag and a board with every comic we purchase - as if it’s some magical lottery ticket. 

It just wasn’t seen like that by the majority of people that read comics back then. 

The notion that some of these comics would really, truly, be of value some day was just scoffed at - not even scoffed at - IGNORED by the majority of people - including readers. They read FF#48 because it was a good story with great art. Not because it would be worth something. I doubt not by a handful of people thought that way. 

Remember, when MM bought his Action #1 for $1000 in, what was it the late 70’s, early 80’s - the consensus was that he was foolish. Even amongst ‘collectors’ to pay that much. Sure there were some that waved their finger and said, “You’ll see!”, but in general it was seen as a lot writhing the small growing scene - and asinine by anyone outside of it. 

The other thing that throws people off is that when you DO find a real collector from that period - they are of course ULTRA anal about their collections and that’s why they LAST 50 years. THAT is a collector. And that’s not normal. It’s an anomaly. And I see no proof it was a big majority from that period.

Who cares? People can believe whatever they want. I have no stake in this argument. I just see no proof that there was a huge collectors market in 1960. 

 

[namisgr]

15 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Who cares? People can believe whatever they want. I have no stake in this argument. I just see no proof that there was a huge collectors market in 1960. 

 

There wasn't in 1960.  But by 1970 there were lots of serious collectors in every city and at least some in large towns across the country, dozens of well stocked dealers of back issues, and more than a few comic book stores selling comics new and old. 

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the role Stan Lee and Marvel played in promoting committed comic book collecting.  The Merry Marvel Marching Society fan club begun in '64 started quite a few young readers along a lifelong path of saving and collecting beyond just reading and discarding.

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by namisgr

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, NoMan said:

Open question:

Why do you think in Ballmann's book on the '64 NYC Comicon he listed the confirmed number of attendees at 56 but followed with ""it is likely there were more." 

Because it's likely there were more...?

I find it interesting, and worth noting, that even though Ballman's book goes into some depth about the planning of the con, even going so far as to reprinting the entire con program, there's still some question about exactly how many people attended. That tells me that 1. it wasn't really that important at the time, and 2. what constituted an "attendee" may not have been exactly precise.

[kimik]

On 8/17/2018 at 1:52 PM, valiantman said:

You didn't get jumped on by me.  My post says there are 10,000 slabs of Hulk 181 and that the number could be 20,000... but will it take 20 more years of slabbing?  What's the demand?  I don't think 20,000 will be enough.

There are a ton of collectors out there that do not care if the hot/big BA keys are slabbed or raw, they just want a copy (GA and SA seem to be different since restoration is a bigger issue, but raw copies will sell just as fast as graded ones provided you vouch for them/disclose any issues). IH 181 sells just as fast raw as it does slabbed, and I expect this continue in the 7.5 and under range. For the higher grades, since the price point may soon be $5,000 for an 8.0, I expect slabbing to be preferred since each 0.5 of a grade is a decent jump in value.

I also have regular SA key buyers that trust me and prefer buying raw books since they can touch and feel them. Personally, I only buy slabs for my PC since they are more liquid, but if you want a copy and know that the seller 1) fully discloses and 2) will provide a refund if the book comes back restored, then for some it is not an issue. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by kimik

[sfcityduck]

14 minutes ago, NoMan said:

Open question:

Why do you think in Ballmann's book on the '64 NYC Comicon he listed the confirmed number of attendees at 56 but followed with ""it is likely there were more." 

I believe it was because 56 was the number of registered attendees they had for that convention (and whose names made it a pamplet).  But, people attended who did not pre-register.  I have seen 100 bandied about as the actual number of attendees.

[Broke as a Joke]

To try to eliminate the 12 year old kid who buys comics every week from being a collector relevant to this discussion is ridiculous.  Those same kids also collected baseball cards and those were collected by alot of people, old and young.  The idea to preserve wasn't some foreign concept to kids, they had already been doing it for years with baseball cards.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

2 minutes ago, Broke as a Joke said:

To try to eliminate the 12 year old kid who buys comics every week from being a collector relevant to this discussion is ridiculous.  Those same kids also collected baseball cards and those were collected by alot of people, old and young.  The idea to preserve wasn't some foreign concept to kids, they had already been doing it for years with baseball cards.

i don't remember it that way.

[namisgr]

9 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

i don't remember it that way.

That's because you weren't a comic book collector.

A high school friend of mine who was instrumental in getting me back into reading comics in 1971 had in two closets in his house all of the comics he'd bought off the rack beginning in 1964 (when he was 10), including complete runs of all the major Marvel superhero books, and was an early MMMS fan club member.  In the early '70s when he and I began frequenting comic conventions and local stores, we met many other long time collectors.

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by namisgr

[sfcityduck]

13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I've defined what I mean by "collector", and if other people have different definitions, they have different definitions. I don't define a kid (12 and under) who buys comics and gathers them by virtue of not throwing them out to be a "collector." That doesn't mean a kid couldn't be a collector...but most kids were not.

 

By any definition of "collector" there were more than 1,000 in 1970 (the statement by you that you are futilely trying to evidence).

And the definition of "collector" I use is simple:  Someone who seeks out, buys, and holds on to comic books because they love comic books.  No need to seek out other collectors, author fanzines, or attend conventions to be a "collector" or comic "fan."  And, yes, there were many many many comic collectors 12 and under - including those who kept collecting and are on this board.  The division between kids and adults like Bails (31 in 1964) and Kaler (29 in 1964) was a point of friction in early fandom.