CGC census is high, but there aren't enough keys 5 5

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

3 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

And I'm absolutely POSTIVE that there were 1000's of kids like me across the country.

Which country?

[VintageComics]

17 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Which is why I reject RMA's statement above.  It's reflective of one comic collecting goal, one I view as akin to viewing comic books as coins - the focus is on condition and variants.  Entombing started with coins, and basically converts a comic meant to be read into an object with just a front and back like a coin.  So I get its a common and legitimate collecting goal and attitude, it's just not the only common and legitimate collecting goal and attitude.

And I reject it as well. The only reason I can think of why someone would place such stringent qualifiers on what a collector is, is to fit their discussion point.

Collecting is broad, just as you explained it to be. It can be many things or a combination of many things.

And there were EASILY more than 1000 of them in 1970 based on what I've read here. I'm positive there were 10,000 of them out there in 1970 and there may have been 100,000 of them.

[VintageComics]

1 minute ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

5 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

And I'm absolutely POSTIVE that there were 1000's of kids like me across the country.

Which country?

Continent. Or in the world. It doesn't matter.

We're talking about collectors of comics.

I just read another article. By the early 70's Stan Lee was licensing comic books in foreign languages around the world.

Edited August 24, 2018 by VintageComics

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

6 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I didn't realize there was a 'confirmation age' where collectors were officially accepted as such like in the Catholic church

And such as like virtually major religion in the world, but I digress. 

I recall you stating that in your experience, most comic book collectors are atheists. So, the analogy is a bit tongue in cheek (which is of course what you intended, but (there is always a "but") the rest of your post misses the position and intent of what RMA has stated.

The rest of what you stated, while an opinion, is not really the crux of the 2 positions being discussed. it is your personal story.

I don't get the .

[jimjum12]

5 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Continent. Or in the world. It doesn't matter.

We're talking about collectors of comics.

I just read another article. By the early 70's Stan Lee was licensing comic books in foreign languages around the world.

There are roughly 2500 copies of Avengers 4 on the census …… I wouldn't think it preposterous to presume that there were at least that many..... someone saved them... GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

7 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

licensing comic books in foreign languages around the world.

That was happening long, long before. Very long before, by other means/individuals/entities. Mr. Lee did not special, in that regard. 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

9 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

We're talking about collectors of comics.

Actually, the descriptions and discussions to this point are any collecting interest/venue. Comic collectors are not any more special in the pursuit/habit/love of collecting interests than any other category of collecting.

[RockMyAmadeus]

When people "reject" arguments that no one made, when people argue obvious exceptions as if they "disprove the rule", those arguments aren't rational, no matter how impassioned they may be, nor are they particularly honest. Discussing in good faith means giving the benefit of the doubt, listening to what the other party is saying, and making a sincere effort to understand where they are coming from, regardless of agreement. Inventing positions that no one took and then arguing against those, arguing exceptions...that's not a good faith effort. 

It's grandstanding to prove to everyone (and, perhaps most importantly, yourself) how "right" you are.

If people clearly have no interest in operating in good faith, there is no common ground, utterly regardless of the issues involved, and such discussions become meaningless. Further discussion with those individuals yields nothing, and at that point, you walk away and disengage.

 You will never find common ground with such people.

Edited August 24, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

Actually, the descriptions and discussions to this point are any collecting interest/venue. Comic collectors are not any more special in the pursuit/habit/love of collecting interests than any other category of collecting.

Precisely.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

13 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

And I reject it as well. The only reason I can think of why someone would place such stringent qualifiers on what a collector is, is to fit their discussion point.

Collecting is broad, just as you explained it to be. It can be many things or a combination of many things.

And there were EASILY more than 1000 of them in 1970 based on what I've read here. I'm positive there were 10,000 of them out there in 1970 and there may have been 100,000 of them.

...and there were easily millions of coin and stamp collectors worldwide in my youth. How does either position negate the RMA position?

[VintageComics]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

15 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I didn't realize there was a 'confirmation age' where collectors were officially accepted as such like in the Catholic church

And such as like virtually major religion in the world, but I digress. 

I only used the Catholic Church as an example. Each religion has it's age of entry.

But more importantly, trying to draw lines around something that is fluid and dynamic is a difficult thing to do because collecting (as explained earlier) is not just one 'thing'. It's many.

5 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

I recall you stating that in your experience, most comic book collectors are atheists.

I don't ever remember saying that (nor does it sound like something I would say) so I'm curious about when / where I said that.

6 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

The rest of what you stated, while an opinion, is not really the crux of the 2 positions being discussed. it is your personal story.

It's relevant because RMA has twice said that if someone allows their parents to throw out their comics they are not a collector.

From my upbrlnging, it's usually the parents that call the shots, Not the kids.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, jimjum12 said:

There are roughly 2500 copies of Avengers 4 on the census …… I wouldn't think it preposterous to presume that there were at least that many..... someone saved them... GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

I'll point to Lazyboy's example above, and counter with "not every copy was saved by collectors." I have things that I have saved for 30 years...not because I'm "collecting" them, but because they're not in anyone's way.

[jimjum12]

1 minute ago, VintageComics said:

From my upbrlnging, it's usually the parents that call the shots, Not the kids.

…. mine certainly tried...……. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

It's relevant because RMA has twice said that if someone allows their parents to throw out their comics they are not a collector.

This is inaccurate.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1 minute ago, VintageComics said:

It's relevant because RMA has twice said that if someone allows their parents to throw out their comics they are not a collector.

From my upbrlnging, it's usually the parents that call the shots, Not the kids.

You have not correctly interpreted his position, and you are using this particular section of his"statement" as the foundation of your righteousness of rejection, and do so by using the "statement" out of context..

[VintageComics]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

14 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

licensing comic books in foreign languages around the world.

That was happening long, long before. Very long before, by other means/individuals/entities. Mr. Lee did not special, in that regard. 

The point is not whether Stan Lee was special or not. It was the comic books were being read worldwide.

By extension, there MUST have been more than just a few 100 or a few 1000 collectors. What percentage of readers became collectors is really what should be discussed, and I think it's MUCH higher than RMA contends it to be.

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

4 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

Actually, the descriptions and discussions to this point are any collecting interest/venue. Comic collectors are not any more special in the pursuit/habit/love of collecting interests than any other category of collecting.

Precisely.

Correct. But I am just focusing on comics because it's a comics forum so as to stay on course.

Are we now broadening the topic to stamps and coins?

 

[VintageComics]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

10 minutes ago, jimjum12 said:

There are roughly 2500 copies of Avengers 4 on the census …… I wouldn't think it preposterous to presume that there were at least that many..... someone saved them... GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

I'll point to Lazyboy's example above, and counter with "not every copy was saved by collectors." I have things that I have saved for 30 years...not because I'm "collecting" them, but because they're not in anyone's way.

And for every slabbed copy that are probably 1000's of others not slabbed. Sitting in collections.

[jimjum12]

5 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'll point to Lazyboy's example above, and counter with "not every copy was saved by collectors." I have things that I have saved for 30 years...not because I'm "collecting" them, but because they're not in anyone's way.

….this discussion needs a consensus definition of the term "collector". GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited August 24, 2018 by jimjum12

[VintageComics]

There were EASILY more than 1000 comic book collectors in 1970. I think there were 1000's and possibly 10,000's.

This was the main point that started this entire tangent in the thread.

Everything else is just noise, conflict of personality, needing to win an argument or people talking past each other.

And head shaking.

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

3 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

The point is not whether Stan Lee was special or not. It was the comic books were being read worldwide.

By extension, there MUST have been more than just a few 100 or a few 1000 collectors. What percentage of readers became collectors is really what should be discussed, and I think it's MUCH higher than RMA contends it to be.

Correct. But I am just focusing on comics because it's a comics forum so as to stay on course.

Are we now broadening the topic to stamps and coins?

 

Now you are just being a bit silly. Pretty much anything you can think of was being "collected" worldwide, by kids. The number of kids that became "focused" and pursued their interests into adulthood were (and are) a minority. Comics focusing is not the limit of the discussion and is not needed to 'stay on course", IMHO