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MCU's THE ETERNALS (11/6/20)
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Started by Bosco685,

3,079 posts in this topic

Gatsby77

Gatsby77

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On 11/1/2021 at 1:38 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Dark Knight was never nominated for Best Picture. Black Panther is the first major comic book movie to be nominated for Best Picture.

What @Oddball said.

This is a perfect example of something that's technically true but missing a metric ton of context - therefore basically a worthless statement.

The Dark Knight was so good the Academy basically apologized to voters and doubled the number of films eligible to be nominated for Best Picture.

Again - The Dark Knight was so good the Academy changed the entire Best Picture category.

Then, the year Black Panther was nominated, it was one of 8 Best Picture nominees; whereas The Dark Knight barely missed the cut-off when the max was just 5.

You really trying to say Black Panther would have made the cut if only 5 nominees were allowed? Really??

 

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@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

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On 11/1/2021 at 4:42 PM, Gatsby77 said:

What @Oddball said.

This is a perfect example of something that's technically true but missing a metric ton of context - therefore basically a worthless statement.

The Dark Knight was so good the Academy basically apologized to voters and doubled the number of films eligible to be nominated for Best Picture.

Again - The Dark Knight was so good the Academy changed the entire Best Picture category.

Then, the year Black Panther was nominated, it was one of 8 Best Picture nominees; whereas The Dark Knight barely missed the cut-off when the max was just 5.

You really trying to say Black Panther would have made the cut if only 5 nominees were allowed? Really??

 

Unpopular opinion: without Heath Ledger's Joker, The Dark Knight isn't that great.

And Heath Ledger's Joker isn't as good as Jack Nicholson's.

Edited by @therealsilvermane
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Gatsby77

Gatsby77

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On 11/1/2021 at 5:14 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Unpopular opinion: without Heath Ledger's Joker, The Dark Knight isn't that great.

And Heath Ledger's Joker isn't as good as Jack Nicholson's.

What the ever-loving Chr-st-on-a-cracker is this?

Sure, and:

"Without Gal Gadot's Diana, Wonder Woman isn't that great."

"Without Daniel Craig's Bond, Casino Royale isn't that great."

"Without Christoph Waltz's Hans Landa, Inglourious Basterds isn't that great."

"Without Anthony Hopkins, Silence of the Lambs isn't that great."

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kimik

kimik

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On 11/1/2021 at 1:29 PM, sagekilz said:

I'm in the minority that believes it's not nearly as good as it's made out to be.

It isn't. Boseman as BP and Jordan as Killmonger mailed it in. Granted, the -script was not strong so it may have been tough to do anything with the parts they were given, but the female characters were much better. The story was maybe just average MCU quality, but definitely not good. 

 

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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On 11/1/2021 at 5:14 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Unpopular opinion: without Heath Ledger's Joker, The Dark Knight isn't that great.

And Heath Ledger's Joker isn't as good as Jack Nicholson's.

Half of what's great about TDK Joker comes from David S. Goyer.  Every Joker before the one he wrote was a caricature of a madman, whereas Goyer's is the first that's a semi-believable madman.  I can't picture any actual human being acting like or looking like Burton and Nicholson's Joker, but wow, the Goyer/Ledger version is just as believable as other great villains like Hannibal Lector or Anton Chigurh.  Exaggerated, yes, all great villains are.  Impossible?  For the first time in the history of Joker, no, not impossible.  That's also the strength of the Todd Phillips/Joaquain Phoenix Joker as well, not so over-the-top insane that you're taken out of the story and into constantly being reminded it's just a movie.  Nicholson brings it closer to reality than his predecessors, but there's only so much grounding he could do with the material he was given.  I watched Batman at least ten times, and every time was to let Nicholson's performance sink in because I love him and his presence in that film, but it's still too over the top due to the writing/directing.

Beyond Ledger's performance the TDK screenplay is still a masterpiece, and Nolan's directing craft in it is as well.  I rank The Dark Knight first among all superhero films, and third is Batman Begins.  Without Ledger TDK is still better than Begins, and that's a high bar since the first hour of Begins is a masterpiece.  Goyer and Nolan are simply the finest duo of creators in the superhero film genre, bar none.

Edited by fantastic_four
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@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

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On 11/1/2021 at 5:42 PM, Gatsby77 said:

What the ever-loving Chr-st-on-a-cracker is this?

Sure, and:

"Without Gal Gadot's Diana, Wonder Woman isn't that great."

"Without Daniel Craig's Bond, Casino Royale isn't that great."

"Without Christoph Waltz's Hans Landa, Inglourious Basterds isn't that great."

"Without Anthony Hopkins, Silence of the Lambs isn't that great."

Without Obadiah Stane, Iton Man still works. 
Without Red Skull, Captain America First Avenger still works. 
Without Ronan, GOTG is still funny as hell. 
Without Mads Mikkelson, Doctor Strange  maybe works better.

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Gatsby77

Gatsby77

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On 11/1/2021 at 6:27 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Without Obadiah Stane, Iton Man still works. 
Without Red Skull, Captain America First Avenger still works. 
Without Ronan, GOTG is still funny as hell. 
Without Mads Mikkelson, Doctor Strange  maybe works better.

And that, my friend, is exactly why you miss the point entirely.

The MCU has a villain problem.

Specifically, that most of them suck donkey toes.

Most are just analogues of the hero - with roughly the same powers, but like, evil.

Every single one of the films you list above would have been far stronger with a better (or more developed) villain.

Credit to Black Panther - Killmonger was not only a developed character, but he had a point - there were points in the film where you could easily root for him, or at least understand why he was doing what he was doing.

Ditto the Joker in The Dark Knight.

And yes - Loki is basically "evil Thor" but he's been written well enough, with nuance and character growth - over the years that he's evolved into a far more interesting character than he was in the Silver Age books.

But even the Red Skull - who was a fairly flat fascist character in every comic I've read with him in it - almost to the point of parody - could have been stronger given better writing. The best thing they've done with him? His appearance in Endgame.

In fact, the villain is one of the reasons I still defend Iron Man 3. Because it's really hard to write a solid solo Iron Man story that doesn't end in him battling another dude in an Iron Man suit. At least here, Killian was different and had different motivations - and all the sweeter because he was a villain of Tony Stark's own creation - when he was ignored that night on the roof.

Also, p.s. Batman's *always* been defined by his rogue's gallery.

It's another reason I'm excited for The Batman - The Riddler's easily his most terrifying villain - and that's been shown in such classic comics stories as Dark Knight, Dark City (Batman 452-454) and Hush (Batman 608-619).

Yet he's never been given a solid movie or TV treatment that really shows his depravity and psychosis. 

I'm cautiously optimistic that The Batman changes that.

Edited by Gatsby77
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@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

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On 11/1/2021 at 6:53 PM, Gatsby77 said:

And that, my friend, is exactly why you miss the point entirely.

The MCU has a villain problem.

Specifically, that most of them suck donkey toes.

Most are just analogues of the hero - with roughly the same powers, but like, evil.

Every single one of the films you list above would have been far stronger with a better (or more developed) villain.

Credit to Black Panther - Killmonger was not only a developed character, but he had a point - there were points in the film where you could easily root for him, or at least understand why he was doing what he was doing.

Ditto the Joker in The Dark Knight.

And yes - Loki is basically "evil Thor" but he's been written well enough, with nuance and character growth - over the years that he's evolved into a far more interesting character than he was in the Silver Age books.

But even the Red Skull - who was a fairly flat fascist character in every comic I've read with him in it - almost to the point of parody - could have been stronger given better writing. The best thing they've done with him? His appearance in Endgame.

In fact, the villain is one of the reasons I still defend Iron Man 3. Because it's really hard to write a solid solo Iron Man story that doesn't end in him battling another dude in an Iron Man suit. At least here, Killian was different and had different motivations - and all the sweeter because he was a villain of Tony Stark's own creation - when he was ignored that night on the roof.

Also, p.s. Batman's *always* been defined by his rogue's gallery.

It's another reason I'm excited for The Batman - The Riddler's easily his most terrifying villain - and that's been shown in such classic comics stories as Dark Knight, Dark City (Batman 452-454) and Hush (Batman 608-619).

Yet he's never been given a solid movie or TV treatment that really shows his depravity and psychosis. 

I'm cautiously optimistic that The Batman changes that.

Ok. But what’s more important, a spicy villain or a spicy hero? Apparently it’s a spicy hero because that’s been Marvel’s formula and that’s a big reason why they rule pop culture.

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Bosco685

Bosco685

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On 11/1/2021 at 6:49 PM, TupennyConan said:

Would Disney pay plants to guerilla market to backwaters like the Boards by calling folks racist? That's an abyss too deep, isn't it?

Now a more serious response.

Social Media and Gorilla Marketing (peppering the airwaves with messaging how consumers must be part of something) is a reality (Guerrilla Marketing Concept With Social Media).

If you need an example, I had posted recently about the #BeatAvatar campaign that took place where a group of Youtube influencers made this their mission to drive that message. To the point people were going multiple times with the understanding Marvel Studios must beat James Cameron, who was someone that hated Marvel films (even though he had stated publicly he actually enjoyed seeing them). And even afterwards Cameron noted wanting to see the MCU continue on.

‘Avatar’ Director James Cameron Hopes Marvel Keeps Making Billions of Dollars

But to establish a rallying cry, someone had to be targeted villain to drive action: enter James Cameron.

With his own statement which was intended to imply EVERYONE should get a chance to tell their stories without studios fixating on just billion dollar franchises, HERE IS OUR VILLAIN.

 

And Disney took it a step further by involving its own cast members to push the theme. Including a new and fresh Avengers: Endgame with a deleted scene. SEE IT NOW!

Here's an interesting article that consolidated a few of the more influential 'influencers' that helped push the message (Meet the Marvel Fans That Helped ‘Endgame’ #BeatAvatar).

It proved once again to Disney how massive an influence its MCU franchise had on people to the point they will spend anything - do anything!

So if you have a comic book franchise heavily supported by comic book fans and fanatics (there is a difference) where do you continue to push your message - the Magic Tricks Forum? You go to the sites that are most influential to the hobby. And you apply all the power of gorilla marketing to engage, message and influence.

That's how it could be done. If there was a franchise made up of multi-billion dollars with heavily invested fans hungry for a theme to rally around to once again celebrate their beloved comic book characters and stories.

Edited by Bosco685
article covering #BeatAvatar influencers
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@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

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On 11/1/2021 at 6:04 PM, Straw-Man said:

not too crazy about black panther.   dark knight as good as it gets.

Take away the cool parking garage opening scene and Joker’s scenes, and The Dark Knight is Batman doing some redundant CSI detective work that goes nowhere, a bunch of chatter about politics and corporate takeovers, a 40 minute goose chase charade game to which the end result would have been the same if Batman had just gone back up to the penthouse party, a lot of Bruce Wayne simping over a girl who isn’t worth the heartache until she (spoiler alert) dies, and an unsympathetic Two-Face.

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drotto

drotto

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On 11/1/2021 at 8:02 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Take away the cool parking garage opening scene and Joker’s scenes, and The Dark Knight is Batman doing some redundant CSI detective work that goes nowhere, a bunch of chatter about politics and corporate takeovers, a 40 minute goose chase charade game to which the end result would have been the same if Batman had just gone back up to the penthouse party, a lot of Bruce Wayne simping over a girl who isn’t worth the heartache until she (spoiler alert) dies, and an unsympathetic Two-Face.

You can't even give the Dark Knight any credit?  You are so blindly devoted to the MCU, you can not give it credit? Most critics and comic movies fans agree this is one of the best if not the best comic movie of all time.  There are multiple lists and articles that reiterate this viewpoint. Even if it is not one on your personal favorites, if you have any integrity, you have to admit it is a highly respected movie.  

 

Also, you are attempting to say a film is flawed if it relies to heavily on one actor or one aspect.  Name me one movie where if you pull out a major piece it truly holds together, or at minimum would not be a different thing all together.  Is Jaws the same without Quint? Star Wars minus Vader? Iron Man without RDJ? The Shinning without Jack? The point is they would be very different movies, and all may have failed. Luckily, all the parts came together, giving us classic films. Movies are a sum off all of their parts, but often one aspect can truly elevate them. 

 

Well, I can think of one possible exception.  If you removed Captian Marvel from her own movie, it would have been better.

Edited by drotto
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