MCU's THE ETERNALS (11/6/20) 8 8

[Bosco685]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:37 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

It seemed to me that what would have been MoS 2 was replaced by BvS, effectively pushing MoS 2 into development hell. MoS 2 seemed like a Snyder passion project that died when he left the JL production.

All of this is irrelevant to The Eternals, though.

That I can believe. The more WB/DC lost faith in its own plans, the producers probably kept kicking it down the road as, "Let's see how this next film does!"

But with the Eternals director being a big fan of Man of Steel, that is some cool details (and makes this relevant). 

[chrisco37]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:07 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

disclaimer: When I say "high concept" above, I don't mean the industry term meaning movies that can be explained and pitched in one sentence like Jingle All the Way. I mean a more personal definition of the term that deals with higher themes and metaphors, like 2001 a Space Odyssey.

Jingle All the Way was full of high concept and universal themes:  Greed, Envy, the Commercialization of Christmas, Father/Son relationships, Fear of Failure, Sinbad.  

[Bosco685]

 

 

 

Quote

According to THR, Marvel Studios' Burbank headquarters features a room known as the "Black Widow" room. The room has no windows and very few people have access to it, with even the cleaning team barred from ever entering. The publication reports that screenwriters Ryan and Kaz Firpo spent months working on Eternals in the Black Widow room, where they collaborated with producer Nate Moore in complete secrecy.

 

It is unclear exactly why the area is known as the Black Widow room, though it is very possible that the name is a nod to the top-secret Red Room from Black Widow, in which female assassins (like Scarlett Johansson's Natasha Romanoff) are trained as part of a secret Soviet project. Since Marvel's Black Widow room seems to be intended as a secret and secure place where the creative minds behind the MCU can get together to collaborate, brainstorm ideas, and write, this would be a playful in-universe reference.

 

[drotto]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:20 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

When WB greenlit a new Superman movie ten years ago, they didn't say "oh if it doesn't make a billion like Avengers, Iron Man 3, or the last two Dark Knight movies just did, that's perfectly fine, we're just starting out with this thing and it's just Superman, we have lots of other characters."

No, WB wanted Man of Steel to be a massive hit. And I'm sorry, but to say that Man of Steel was a massive runaway hit or that WB wasn't the least bit disappointed with it is erroneous.

So Eternals making 71 million domestic and 160 world wide with projected final box office south of $400 million, will not be considered underperformence? They have pushed this movie heavily, so from a monetary standpoint, it is not dissapointing? This is likely going to be the lowest grossing MCU film other than Hulk, and if not it will be in the bottom five. Yet, unlike DC films, you will proclaim this movie financially successful?  This is independent from what you or anyone else feels about the film.

 

Marvel wants this movie to make money just as WB always wants their movies to make money. Even with Covid, do you think these box office numbers are low enough that Disney may decide to make some adjustments going forward?

Edited November 8, 2021 by drotto

[Jaydogrules]

On 11/8/2021 at 9:40 AM, drotto said:

So Eternals making 71 million domestic and 160 world wide with projected final box office south of $400 million, will not be considered underperformence? They have pushed this movie heavily, so from a monetary standpoint, it is not dissapointing? This is likely going to be the lowest grossing MCU film other than Hulk, and if not it will be in the bottom five. Yet, unlike DC films, you will proclaim this movie financially successful?  This is independent from what you or anyone else feels about the film.

 

Marvel wants this movie to make money just as WB always wants their movies to make money. Even with Covid, do you think these box office numbers are low enough that Disney may decide to make some adjustments going forward?

None of the MCU movies released this year have made any money theatrically with their massive production and P&A costs.  

Understanding that the paradigm shifted (temporarily?) since covid and they were already in the can. Ironically, the only one that might have actually "under-performed" somewhat was Black Widow.

Frankly I think the numbers we are seeing for shang-chi and eternals would have been close to these with or without covid.  Phase 4 was never going to be gangbusters.  

-J.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Jaydogrules

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:51 PM, Jaydogrules said:

Phase 4 was never going to be gangbusters.

Truth.

I don't think that Black Widow, Shang-Chi, or The Eternals were ever going to approach $1 billion regardless of circumstance. I think that No Way Home could get there, and would get there if we were 'back to normal'.

[Drummy]

Agreed on all of that -- these films feel smaller and more experimental, much like their current run of TV shows.  I admire the vast landscape of tones and stories Marvel is telling right now, but almost by definition they're not all going to land with viewers. 

Also, unlike in the early phases, we're not seeing the obvious, thrilling set-ups come into play -- the solo movies become the Avengers, which leads to Civil War and then Thanos as the 'big bad'.  Right now we're dealing with TV that's heading toward multiple villains (Kang, Mephisto or Shuma-Gorath, etc.) and films that don't seem to have much connective tissue at all (from Shang-Chi to Eternals to No Way Home, where's the overlap?).  Right now Marvel is playing in their sandbox and getting ready to throw the next huge wave at us, which I expect will be FF and the threat of Galactus along with 'Mutants' and the X-universe.

I hope they find ways to string all of this material together in a way that makes narrative sense, but they may not even try; in my opinion, to force the stories together will create more unhappiness in fans than leaving them somewhat separate.  It may end up being one universe but NOT one main story, as we've had thus far.  And if it's not one story culminating in event films like 'Endgame', I don't know if the MCU's vast popularity and profitability can or will be repeated down the road.

Dan

[drotto]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:54 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Truth.

I don't think that Black Widow, Shang-Chi, or The Eternals were ever going to approach $1 billion regardless of circumstance. I think that No Way Home could get there, and would get there if we were 'back to normal'.

So where does that leave the MCU?  How long can you make movies with $200 million production budgets that have total box office around $400 million?  Eventually, those numbers will require adjustments.  Either you lower the production costs and knowingly make smaller movies,  or you change course in story and vison to try and get those numbers up.

 

I think Spider-Man is kinda it's own thing and is reported to be more of a Sony film.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 11/8/2021 at 1:08 PM, drotto said:

So where does that leave the MCU?  How long can you make movies with $200 million production budgets that have total box office around $400 million?  Eventually, those numbers will require adjustments.  Either you lower the production costs and knowingly make smaller movies,  or you change course in story and vison to try and get those numbers up.

 

I think Spider-Man is kinda it's own thing and is reported to be more of a Sony film.

The industry has been overpaid for awhile now. I think that it's time actors took pay cuts to fit the 'new normal' budgets and box office receipts.

[jsilverjanet]

On 11/6/2021 at 10:23 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Before digging into my theories of possible issues some critics might have had with Eternals, I just wanna say that some critics are just dummies. I do think the low RT score does have a bit to do in part with groupthink, some critics just afraid to give the movie any positive thoughts in fear of looking dumb because they really don't know how to critique a comic book movie and everyone else is giving it bad reviews so there must be something there.

 

this is a valid point.

I think for some of us though, this is the exact thing I've been saying for years about how critics view most marvel movies (positive) vs most DC movies (negative)

[Gatsby77]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:37 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

It seemed to me that what would have been MoS 2 was replaced by BvS, effectively pushing MoS 2 into development hell. MoS 2 seemed like a Snyder passion project that died when he left the JL production.

All of this is irrelevant to The Eternals, though.

This - exactly.

Zach Snyder's on the record that this is what happened. MoS 2 (with Braniac as the primary villain) morphed into BvS - and the planned MoS 2 is (still) stuck in development hell. Warner Bros. realized - based largely on MoS's underperformance vs. Nolan's Batman trilogy, that they needed to shake things up - hence adding Batman and fast-tracking BvS.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 11/8/2021 at 1:27 PM, Gatsby77 said:

This - exactly.

Zach Snyder's on the record that this is what happened. MoS 2 (with Braniac as the primary villain) morphed into BvS - and the planned MoS 2 is (still) stuck in development hell. Warner Bros. realized - based largely on MoS's underperformance vs. Nolan's Batman trilogy, that they needed to shake things up - hence adding Batman and fast-tracking BvS.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that BvS was always intended to be the sequel, so sorry for the miscommunication.

There's simply too much ground that I would want to cover regarding genesis of the "DCEU", MoS, and WB. It's better off left elsewhere.

[Bosco685]

On 11/8/2021 at 1:32 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that BvS was always intended to be the sequel, so sorry for the miscommunication.

There's simply too much ground that I would want to cover regarding genesis of the "DCEU", MoS, and WB. It's better off left elsewhere.

I knew what you meant.

Charles Roven did too. 

[Bosco685]

On 11/8/2021 at 1:27 PM, Gatsby77 said:

This - exactly.

Zach Snyder's on the record that this is what happened. MoS 2 (with Braniac as the primary villain) morphed into BvS - and the planned MoS 2 is (still) stuck in development hell. Warner Bros. realized - based largely on MoS's underperformance vs. Nolan's Batman trilogy, that they needed to shake things up - hence adding Batman and fast-tracking BvS.

What was on record was Zack Snyder noting once Batman was brought up as a possibility is he then planned on BVS first ahead of MOS 2. Jay Oliva is his storyboard partner and friend that has been involved for some time with Zack Snyder on his WB/DC journey. Oliva was also the director of the celebrated Batman: The Dark Knight Returns animated movie starring Peter Weller.

Zack Snyder Always Planned to do BvS NOT Man of Steel 2

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It's generally believed that Warner Bros. changed direction on the DCEU, keen to create a cinematic universe that rivaled Marvel's. As such, so the common theory goes, they asked director Zack Snyder to change his planned Man of Steel 2 into a film that could lay the foundations for a shared universe. That swiftly became Batman V Superman, a film that brought the Last Son of Krypton and the Dark Knight into a head-on collision.

 

Jay Oliva, however, has decided now is the right time to challenge this view. He's taken to Twitter to set the record straight, insisting that Snyder always planned it this way.

 

Quote

According to Oliva, then, Snyder had always planned to introduce Batman in the movie. As early as April 2013, Oliva insists that Snyder had drawn up storyboards with a Batman inspired by Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns. This was three months before the theatrical release of Man of Steel, three months before Warner Bros. confirmed there would even be a sequel. It was also four months before Snyder publicly told audiences at SDCC that the film would feature Batman, and would be loosely inspired by The Dark Knight Returns.

What you may be happening across is the articles that like to mirror what Daniel Alter is noting above (alternate reality) without actually talking with the actual planners of the early films. And I recognize there are loads of articles noting how they had inside sources telling them what was going on. Unfortunately, some are inside their own heads.

[Chaos_in_Canada]

Ramin Djawadi - Across the Oceans of Time (From "Eternals"/Official Audio)

 

[@therealsilvermane]

Some audience comments about Eternals from the last half-hour on Marvel's YouTube page:

Eternals seems to be almost universally loved (or liked) by the fans. Take that, half of the critics! 

[paperheart]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:55 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Some audience comments about Eternals from the last half-hour on Marvel's YouTube page:

Eternals seems to be almost universally loved (or liked) by the fans. Take that, half of the critics! 

may as well download comments from Chloe Zhao's family

[fastballspecial]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:27 PM, jsilverjanet said:

On 11/6/2021 at 10:23 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Before digging into my theories of possible issues some critics might have had with Eternals, I just wanna say that some critics are just dummies. I do think the low RT score does have a bit to do in part with groupthink, some critics just afraid to give the movie any positive thoughts in fear of looking dumb because they really don't know how to critique a comic book movie and everyone else is giving it bad reviews so there must be something there.

 

this is a valid point.

I think for some of us though, this is the exact thing I've been saying for years about how critics view most marvel movies (positive) vs most DC movies (negative)

That is very true, but the last WW movie deserved it. 

 

[fastballspecial]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:38 AM, Straw-Man said:

i guess i'll see this eternals thing, but it is surely the first time i haven't seen an mcu release on the opening weekend.

Its just a different type of film. Much more broader in scope. I like the Celestials explanation much better then Kirby's 
version or at least it was more modern. There were a lot of metaphors in the film that many wont get unless they know
some Greek mythology. They have 5,000 years to play with so this could have been a 3 hour movie easily. Deviants 
were a different take then I expected and I am not sure it was the right one. You can see that Disney is appealing to
the masses with this film. If you read the Eternals its worth watching.

 

[jsilverjanet]

On 11/8/2021 at 3:06 PM, fastballspecial said:

That is very true, but the last WW movie deserved it. 

 

no doubt - it was bad