Heritage's Next Event Auction has started posting books ! 31 31

[tth2]

On 9/20/2021 at 9:51 PM, szav said:

On 9/20/2021 at 4:16 PM, MasterChief said:

All items apparently unsold due to buyers reneging.

 

On 9/20/2021 at 9:06 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Wow. That many. Including a Frazetta! A voided sale on a Saddle Justice 6 is nothing by comparison to a half million dollar Frazetta. I’d love to know why, but I guess we never will. Half a million actually seems low to me for an original Frazetta. Heritage may be glad to get a do over on that one.

I thought that Frazetta and the Stevens simply had reserves that weren't met.  The comics in question were all no reserve items that had actual winning bids.

Correct, the Frazetta and Stevens never met reserve.  There was no reneging bidder for them.

That might be the case for the Wrightson too. 

[MasterChief]

On 9/20/2021 at 5:55 AM, tth2 said:

Correct, the Frazetta and Stevens never met reserve.  There was no reneging bidder for them.

That might be the case for the Wrightson too. 

Thanks for the point of clarification.

Here's an interesting article that discusses the topic. Steve Ivy of Heritage, among others, is quoted in the piece with regard to non-payment by winners. What's not discussed is if you get left holding the bag because of, well, that ghost of an employee with the catchy moniker shilling/submitting punishment bids.

My Cat Made Me Do It,’ and Other Ways People Try to Back Out of Auction Bids
By Daniel Grant • 03/02/18

Every auction is filled with at least a little anxiety. Will the sale be a flop? Will you be outbid for the piece you have your heart set on? Or, worst of all, will you accidentally bid on something you don’t want…maybe when inadvertently scratching your ear…as TV and movies lead us to believe happens all the time?

In reality, this never happens at live events—an auctioneer always makes sure to receive affirmation of a bid before moving the proceedings on. But other accidents do happen. Often getting swept up in the pursuit of the sale, it’s not uncommon for a buyer to want to back out after an item has been won.

If you realize quickly the error of your ways, the auction house is likely to let you out of it and go to the next highest bidder. But not necessarily. At a live auction, a bid represents a legal obligation. There’s no going back. But clearly not all buyers are on the same page; nonpayment is an issue all houses have to reckon with. And in the online auction world, the issue of when you have to pay up, and how you can back out, is a whole lot murkier.

So what happens if you don’t want something you won in an auction? It depends on the situation, but you could very likely get sued.

(Link to entire article: https://observer.com/2018/03/christies-sothebys-lawsuits-show-what-happens-when-buyers-back-out/)

[tth2]

On 9/21/2021 at 1:14 AM, MasterChief said:

So what happens if you don’t want something you won in an auction? It depends on the situation, but you could very likely get sued.

(Link to entire article: https://observer.com/2018/03/christies-sothebys-lawsuits-show-what-happens-when-buyers-back-out/)

The part of the article that cracked me up was:

"An example of this took place in 2014, when Sotheby’s brought a lawsuit against London-based Willstone Management art advisor Olyvia Kwok for failing to pay for two paintings—Jean-Michel Basquiat’s 1984 Water-Worshipper and Cy Twombly’s 1976 Idilli—on which she had bid £2,490,500 and £386,500, respectively, at a London auction. Kwok claimed that she was purchasing these artworks for a European client based in Hong Kong, Andrew Crawford Norman Fleming, who turned out to be unable to pay for them."

Willstone and Kwok clearly did no due diligence on their client, seeing as he had been declared bankrupt in Scotland in 2010 and convicted in Scotland in 2008 of breaching a disqualification from acting as a company director. 

If you google his name, you'll find a webpage of the Jersey Financial Services Commission from 22 December 2015 that says:

Mr Andrew Crawford Norman Fleming (also known as Andrew Fleming, Andy Fleming, Andy Flemming, Crawford Fleming) ("Mr Fleming"), born: 30 October 1967

C/O HM Prison, La Moye, La Rue Baal, St. Brelade, Jersey JE3 8HQ

 

[comicnoir]

I always wonder why these ppl need a proxy. Can't they do it themselves? Of course not, they are crooks.

[Professor K]

On 9/20/2021 at 9:06 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Wow. That many. Including a Frazetta! A voided sale on a Saddle Justice 6 is nothing by comparison to a half million dollar Frazetta. I’d love to know why, but I guess we never will. Half a million actually seems low to me for an original Frazetta. Heritage may be glad to get a do over on that one.

And that is a really nice piece. Like Master Chief said it looks like its gone from the site now. So unless it shows back up for auction soon I suppose we'll probably never know what happened to it. A few days ago I was looking at it up close, such colors and detail. I should have saved the picture.

Spoke too soon. I couldn't find it when searching on the HA website but when I searched it on a search engine site I found it

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/paintings/frank-frazetta-the-people-that-time-forgot-captive-princess-cover-painting-original-art-a/a/7246-91006.s

I didn't know it was the first time it was ever sold in auction. I would think it would sell for at least a half million.

[eschnit]

On 9/20/2021 at 10:07 PM, Professor K said:

And that is a really nice piece. Like Master Chief said it looks like its gone from the site now. So unless it shows back up for auction soon I suppose we'll probably never know what happened to it. A few days ago I was looking at it up close, such colors and detail. I should have saved the picture.

Spoke too soon. I couldn't find it when searching on the HA website but when I searched it on a search engine site I found it

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/paintings/frank-frazetta-the-people-that-time-forgot-captive-princess-cover-painting-original-art-a/a/7246-91006.s

I didn't know it was the first time it was ever sold in auction. I would think it would sell for at least a half million.

I could be wrong, but I’m almost certain it simply had a reserve that was not met.  They opened the live bidding at the minimum reserve, when no bids came, they said it would be available on the site.

[Silver_Couch_Surfer]

My only promise win. Highest graded and Gerber 7 book.

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/20/2021 at 12:14 PM, MasterChief said:

Thanks for the point of clarification.

Here's an interesting article that discusses the topic. Steve Ivy of Heritage, among others, is quoted in the piece with regard to non-payment by winners. What's not discussed is if you get left holding the bag because of, well, that ghost of an employee with the catchy moniker shilling/submitting punishment bids.

My Cat Made Me Do It,’ and Other Ways People Try to Back Out of Auction Bids
By Daniel Grant • 03/02/18

Every auction is filled with at least a little anxiety. Will the sale be a flop? Will you be outbid for the piece you have your heart set on? Or, worst of all, will you accidentally bid on something you don’t want…maybe when inadvertently scratching your ear…as TV and movies lead us to believe happens all the time?

In reality, this never happens at live events—an auctioneer always makes sure to receive affirmation of a bid before moving the proceedings on. But other accidents do happen. Often getting swept up in the pursuit of the sale, it’s not uncommon for a buyer to want to back out after an item has been won.

If you realize quickly the error of your ways, the auction house is likely to let you out of it and go to the next highest bidder. But not necessarily. At a live auction, a bid represents a legal obligation. There’s no going back. But clearly not all buyers are on the same page; nonpayment is an issue all houses have to reckon with. And in the online auction world, the issue of when you have to pay up, and how you can back out, is a whole lot murkier.

So what happens if you don’t want something you won in an auction? It depends on the situation, but you could very likely get sued.

(Link to entire article: https://observer.com/2018/03/christies-sothebys-lawsuits-show-what-happens-when-buyers-back-out/)

I had nothing to do with any of this.  

[Robot Man]

On 9/20/2021 at 1:16 AM, MasterChief said:

Thanks for the lead.

Along with the Saddle Justice #6, the HT#31 is currently listed as a "Post-Auction Buy" with the same wording:

"We are accepting offers until 8:00 AM CT Monday, September 20, 2021 on this item that didn't sell in the recent 2021 September 8 - 12 Comics & Comic Art Signature Auction." 

If I understand what's going on, there are six items that did not sell in the September auction. All items apparently unsold due to buyers reneging.

One of the items (a Frazetta OA piece) is listed as a post-auction buy for $540K. 

All post-auction buy items are on a countdown clock. Seems as though once the clock runs out, the item, if not sold either through 'make an offer' or 'by it now', are removed completely from the website and auction records with no way of knowing what happened to the lot. For example, the printable auction results, which I understand is one item of record required by law among several others, does not reflect the Frazetta lot number of 91006. The number is skipped and lists 91005 then 91007. But no 91006. (link to printable auction results)

Here's a screen grab of the items currently listed as post-auction buys. They will be gone in the morning.

Am I understanding and reading this right? Saddle Justice #6 for 21K? Is that the “opening bid” or the “buy it now” price?  This is crazy...

[Mmehdy]

On 9/23/2021 at 7:52 AM, Robot Man said:

Am I understanding and reading this right? Saddle Justice #6 for 21K? Is that the “opening bid” or the “buy it now” price?  This is crazy...

apparently two bidders put a very high price ceiling on this book, after the sale, the buyer backed out, look for it to come back on and get say 7K ish

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 9/23/2021 at 12:28 PM, Mmehdy said:

apparently two bidders put a very high price ceiling on this book, after the sale, the buyer backed out, look for it to come back on and get say 7K ish

Not necessarily. I think @Robot Manis in a “Buy it Now” frame of mind 

Edited September 23, 2021 by GreatCaesarsGhost

[Robot Man]

I’m actually in a “both feet planted on terra firma” frame of mind. Saddle Justice #6 is an OK book. Probably even a little low on most EC collectors want lists. Now, it is a 9.6, and one of the holy Promise Collection books that all the cool kids want. But anyone bidding $21K for it is either laundering money, on crack, or simply crazy. 

Even the 7K that Mitch mentioned seems a little aggressive. But given the times we are in, maybe doable. 

There just seem to be so many better ways to spend that kind of money on than to buy an over hyped, second-third string comic book..,

[MasterChief]

On 9/23/2021 at 10:37 AM, Robot Man said:

Saddle Justice #6 is an OK book. Probably even a little low on most EC collectors want lists. Now, it is a 9.6, and one of the holy Promise Collection books that all the cool kids want. But anyone bidding $21K for it is either laundering money, on crack, or simply crazy. 

[MasterChief]

Just a quick follow-up on the post-auction buys (PAB) listed after close of the September Comics & Comic Art Auction #7246.

As mentioned earlier, all 6 items listed as PAB have been removed from the site.

It appears all OA that went unsold during the auction (4 pieces), and then subsequently listed as a PAB with the "buy now" or "make an offer" feature, failed to meet reserve during the auction.

As suspected, the two Promise books initially sold but the buyers backed out.

That said, there were a total of 11 lots that failed to sale in the auction. Not just the 6 offered as PAB.

The other 5 items also appear to be cases of buyers reneging (or perhaps no one bid on them?). These items do not show reserves.

Here are links to the OA pieces that failed to sale during the auction. Each lot lists a reserve. It's interesting to note that only the Frazetta piece "Captive Princess" was listed at the reserve price during PAB. All other pieces were listed over their respective reserves.

Also provided is a link to all items not sold during auction #7246.

Frank Frazetta The People That Time Forgot "Captive Princess" Cover Painting Original Art (Ace, 1973)
Not Sold
Reserve: $ 450,000
https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/frank-frazetta-the-people-that-time-forgot-captive-princess-cover-painting-original-art-ace-1973-/a/7246-91006.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Dave Stevens Elvira's House of Mystery #11 Cover Original Art (DC, 1987)
Not Sold
Reserve: $80,000
https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/dave-stevens-elvira-s-house-of-mystery-11-cover-original-art-dc-1987-/a/7246-91026.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Frank Frazetta Women of the Ages Portfolio Title Illustration Original Art (1977)
Not Sold
Reserve: $25,000
https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/frank-frazetta-women-of-the-ages-portfolio-title-illustration-original-art-1977-/a/7246-95036.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Bernie Wrightson - Victor Frankenstein Illustration Original Art (circa late 1960s)
Not Sold
Reserve: $10,000
https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/bernie-wrightson-victor-frankenstein-illustration-original-art-circa-late-1960s-/a/7246-97489.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Lot Items Not Sold During Auction ##7246
https://comics.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=52+790+4294940004+232&ic4=RemoveFilter-071515

[tth2]

On 9/24/2021 at 5:06 AM, MasterChief said:

Frank Frazetta Women of the Ages Portfolio Title Illustration Original Art (1977)
Not Sold
Reserve: $25,000
https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/frank-frazetta-women-of-the-ages-portfolio-title-illustration-original-art-1977-/a/7246-95036.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

When this reserve was publicly posted, there was discussion here on the Boards (probably in the OA forum) that the reserve was ridiculous and would not be triggered.  Which is exactly how it turned out.

[lou_fine]

On 9/23/2021 at 10:28 AM, Mmehdy said:

On 9/23/2021 at 7:52 AM, Robot Man said:

Am I understanding and reading this right? Saddle Justice #6 for 21K? Is that the “opening bid” or the “buy it now” price?  This is crazy...

apparently two bidders put a very high price ceiling on this book, after the sale, the buyer backed out, look for it to come back on and get say 7K ish

Not sure what the two of you are thinking as I would tend to lean more on the side of our long time resident analyst and good friend here, Mitch M., and say what we saw here was actually a bargain and the price on this second go round should be higher than $21K:  

On 9/12/2021 at 12:26 PM, Mmehdy said:

I noticed some promise books broke some records, like the Crimes by Women at 26K and comments by the board members on the record prices, this is nothing compared to the complaining about the MIle HIgh and SF pricing 50 years ago. Let me say this on the record, the prices paid today for Promise  OO pedigreed books will look like bargains after the last OO Promise book is sold and there are no more. When these books hit resale and all the waiters who have sat by the sidelines, saying this is costs  too much, wait till that last auction of OO Promise books and wait till you see the resale prices when the final action is done. Do not wait, this collection will go down as one of the top 5 greatest OO pedigree collections of all time and over time, for what this collection really is, it will gain in stature just as the SF/MH collections have grown over the next 5-10 years.

 We are seeing world record prices for world record once in a lifetime  quality material. you pay for what you get, but if you pay a bit more for quality, in the long run it pays off. Especially this amazing number of 9.6/ 9.8 GA books....these are not replaceable some for any price.

 

Alright, on a more serious note, I would tend to agree with RM in his post here, even though I believe it could easily hit 5-figures again given the current market craziness and how overhyped the Promise Collection books are, and I guess we'll just have to wait and see:   

On 9/23/2021 at 1:37 PM, Robot Man said:

But anyone bidding $21K for it is either laundering money, on crack, or simply crazy. 

Even the 7K that Mitch mentioned seems a little aggressive. But given the times we are in, maybe doable. 

There just seem to be so many better ways to spend that kind of money on than to buy an over hyped, second-third string comic book..,

 

[Aman619]

Not to mention Netflix just green lit the Saddle Justice movie!  Saddle up cowboys!

[Point Five]

On 9/24/2021 at 2:16 AM, Aman619 said:

Not to mention Netflix just green lit the Saddle Justice movie!  Saddle up cowboys!

[withdraws life savings] PUT IT ALL ON SADDLE JUSTICE #6 9.6! YES, I'M SURE!

 

[Robot Man]

On 9/23/2021 at 10:24 PM, lou_fine said:

Not sure what the two of you are thinking as I would tend to lean more on the side of our long time resident analyst and good friend here, Mitch M., and say what we saw here was actually a bargain and the price on this second go round should be higher than $21K:  

 

Alright, on a more serious note, I would tend to agree with RM in his post here, even though I believe it could easily hit 5-figures again given the current market craziness and how overhyped the Promise Collection books are, and I guess we'll just have to wait and see:   

 

OK, let’s take out the two highest bidders on the Saddle Justice #6. Where does it sit then? And how many serious individual bidders bid? 

At the end of the day it is a barely readable early EC with a halfway decent Ingals cover. Not a whole lot of serious collectors seeking this one out.  And obviously two maybe EC completists wanting a super high grade copy. And then you have Heritage’s “Promise” of being from the most amazing collection to ever be discovered. 

I ain’t drinking the Kool Aid...

 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/24/2021 at 10:39 AM, Robot Man said:

OK, let’s take out the two highest bidders on the Saddle Justice #6. Where does it sit then? And how many serious individual bidders bid? 

At the end of the day it is a barely readable early EC with a halfway decent Ingals cover. Not a whole lot of serious collectors seeking this one out.  And obviously two maybe EC completists wanting a super high grade copy. And then you have Heritage’s “Promise” of being from the most amazing collection to ever be discovered. 

I ain’t drinking the Kool Aid...

 

I boldfaced the most relevant points, but will digress from Saddle Justice as I don't want to stirrup trouble.  

The two highest bidders is probably less meaningful in the marketplace than where the third bidder dropped out.  In my estimation that figure would be a more trustworthy indicator of a book's real world value.  

It's one of the reasons establishing values in Price Guides and through data analysis sites is so exceedingly difficult. Price Guides are too conservative and irregularly published to provide accurate baseline values.  Also, Guide values tend to go out of date quickly. Data Analysis sites are much better for keeping current on market activity (sales) if their coverage is thorough enough, but that's the catch.  Analytical sites are often compromised by providing incomplete data, exclusivity deals that showcase their preference for specific grading services and auctions and proprietary practices that cover only part of the existing sales information.   This is also complicated by a system that prioritizes grading as "trustworthy" while penalizing competition (...go with the competitor and you're leaving money on the table) and the leading grading service engaging in business activities that create an appearance of coziness with one of the leading auction houses.  

To add to this confusion "trends" are an iffy proposition usually reliant on media speculation, which is real enough, but always a dice roll.  Collector fueled frenzy is a poor investment strategy.

The obvious irony is the Promise Collection being regarded by some as the most amazing collection ever discovered.  Granted, it's a remarkable collection, but everything else surrounding it appears to be pure hyperbole.  It wouldn't surprise me if this narrative comes back to haunt some of those Kool Aid drinking collectors/investors you alluded to and even the CGC if their management isn't careful.  

If I were a betting man, my chips would be on major players in these businesses cashing in and bailing before things go south.  To analogize where the collecting world stands, if the collecting marketplace were compared to a great white whale of legend (Moby something-or-other), those who profit from the chase won't be the folks volunteering to ride it to the end.  Keep your eye on the key players involved in the CGC and Heritage.  Look at their movements like a "weather vane." If everything goes south in the markets or pedigree interest, the spinning will stop, but they'll still land on their feet.

Note (beluga caveat): The Promise Collection is an excellent pedigree with a great story behind it, but the embellishment of it's importance in concert with the hyperbolic public promotion without deference to other well respected pedigreed books of equal or superior distinction is jaw dropping in it's mendacity.

Too much caffeine today!