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[RareHighGrade]

The Pinnacle Hill collection of MLJs was graded at the same time as the Promise collection.  The Pinnacle Hill books were graded much more tightly and consistently. 

It may be that the colors and gloss on the Promise books offset grade reductions that otherwise would have been applied for obvious defects.

[lou_fine]

On 10/6/2021 at 9:13 AM, RareHighGrade said:

The Pinnacle Hill collection of MLJs was graded at the same time as the Promise collection.  The Pinnacle Hill books were graded much more tightly and consistently. 

Any idea if Heritage was also the submittor of the Pinnacle Hill books or were they submitted by the actual consignor themself?    

 

On 10/6/2021 at 9:13 AM, RareHighGrade said:

It may be that the colors and gloss on the Promise books offset grade reductions that otherwise would have been applied for obvious defects.

As far as I know, that's not how grading is supposed to work as they are supposed to be graded much more according to the so-called technical factors, whatever they are.  If they give bonus points for colors and gloss, wouldn't we then be seeing some grades for perfectly technical books grading higher than 10.0?  When it comes to colors and gloss, this is much more what the CVA and QES stickers were designed for in terms of books that presented nicer than their assigned CGC grades.    

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:01 PM, lou_fine said:

Any idea if Heritage was also the submittor of the Pinnacle Hill books or were they submitted by the actual consignor themself?    

 

As far as I know, that's not how grading is supposed to work as they are supposed to be graded much more according to the so-called technical factors, whatever they are.  If they give bonus points for colors and gloss, wouldn't we then be seeing some grades for perfectly technical books grading higher than 10.0?  When it comes to colors and gloss, this is much more what the CVA and QES stickers were designed for in terms of books that presented nicer than their assigned CGC grades.    

@Cat-Man_America

[Cat-Man_America]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:46 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

@Cat-Man_America

That's part of the Spinal Tapestry of the Promise Collection.  

[buttock]

On 10/6/2021 at 11:01 AM, lou_fine said:

Any idea if Heritage was also the submittor of the Pinnacle Hill books or were they submitted by the actual consignor themself?    

 

As far as I know, that's not how grading is supposed to work as they are supposed to be graded much more according to the so-called technical factors, whatever they are.  If they give bonus points for colors and gloss, wouldn't we then be seeing some grades for perfectly technical books grading higher than 10.0?  When it comes to colors and gloss, this is much more what the CVA and QES stickers were designed for in terms of books that presented nicer than their assigned CGC grades.    

This isn't really true.  A grade is simply a way to give a ballpark description of a book, while also giving it a rank relative to other books in terms of condition.  Not everyone has the same preference of attributes or defects, so you try and take everything as a whole and put a grade on it.  If I'm on the phone with you and tell you a book is NM or VF, you should be able to have a pretty good idea of what it looks like.  And that's the whole point of a grade, not to assign different values to each technical flaw.  

[Cat-Man_America]

On 10/7/2021 at 12:49 PM, buttock said:

This isn't really true.  A grade is simply a way to give a ballpark description of a book, while also giving it a rank relative to other books in terms of condition.  Not everyone has the same preference of attributes or defects, so you try and take everything as a whole and put a grade on it.  If I'm on the phone with you and tell you a book is NM or VF, you should be able to have a pretty good idea of what it looks like.  And that's the whole point of a grade, not to assign different values to each technical flaw.  

The question then becomes whether the grader's ballpark is sandlot or major league.  

[Terry JSA]

I wonder what this’ll fetch! 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Terry JSA

[path4play]

Anyone have a rough number for the multiple the Promise Pedigree books are garnering over over-street or non-ped fmv?

 

 

 

[Pickie]

"Only 5 times FMV!! And they will grow in value!!"

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 10/9/2021 at 10:05 AM, path4play said:

Anyone have a rough number for the multiple the Promise Pedigree books are garnering over over-street or non-ped fmv?

 

 

 

3 x OPG to 10 x OPG, depending on how close OPG is to true market value. The stud WW II cover Timelys are around 3 times guide since OPG is closer to reality there. OPG is pretty far from reality on many LB Coles, Matt Bakers, romance and precode horror, so those go for up to 10 x OPG.

now if you’re asking does a Promise pedigree book beat a non-ped book of like condition, from what I’ve seen, the answer is I don’t know. So far, the Promise books have brought to market books the like of which I don’t see often enough to compare.

I am looking forward to how the first real Promise keys (though of lesser condition) perform. I refer to the Bat 1 and Cap 1. 

[lou_fine]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:49 AM, buttock said:

On 10/6/2021 at 10:01 AM, lou_fine said:

As far as I know, that's not how grading is supposed to work as they are supposed to be graded much more according to the so-called technical factors, whatever they are.  If they give bonus points for colors and gloss, wouldn't we then be seeing some grades for perfectly technical books grading higher than 10.0?  When it comes to colors and gloss, this is much more what the CVA and QES stickers were designed for in terms of books that presented nicer than their assigned CGC grades.    

This isn't really true.  A grade is simply a way to give a ballpark description of a book, while also giving it a rank relative to other books in terms of condition.  Not everyone has the same preference of attributes or defects, so you try and take everything as a whole and put a grade on it.  If I'm on the phone with you and tell you a book is NM or VF, you should be able to have a pretty good idea of what it looks like.  And that's the whole point of a grade, not to assign different values to each technical flaw.  

Looks like you are clearly dating yourself here as I believe your definition of grading here is much more in line with what it was prior to CGC.  

Not that I disagree with it since I am also an old long time collector from the days of yore prior to CGC coming into place.  I actually prefer it much more so than having a grading company decide that near invisible tiny NCB ticks and bends that can only be seen by holding the book up at a certain angle to the light should be moved to the top of their grading defect hit chart, while clearly visible pressing defects such as impacted or indented staples and the likes are now pretty much treated like production defects and to be discounted or minimized for grading purposes.  Of course, we all know the reason for this and it only makes business sense not to have your undisclosed grading standards impede the insatiable hunger of your mother Corp.  

I remember sending in about a dozen GA books to be graded back when CGC first opened their doors as a sample test of their grading system and also just in time for the big Greg Manning Auction.  The books looked nice and clearly they were graded much more in line with the traditional grading standards that were already in place prior to CGC as they all came in between CGC 9.2 and CGC 9.6.  My bet is that if those exact same books were sent in today without any "maximizatioin of potential" being perfomed on them, and with Heritage arriving on the scene in 2002 and CGC's ever increasing focus on additional revenue generating defects, they would probably come back anywhere from grades ranging from CGC 8.0 through to CGC 9.2, if I am lucky.  Especially since the "pancaked look", even those with the CCS generated visible defects, appears to be new visual repsentation of what a HG book should look like in today's grading environment.     

[RareHighGrade]

On 10/9/2021 at 9:22 AM, szav said:

Generally speaking it looks very similar to the Mile High premium.  For non highest graded books that would normally be worth $500 or more, the equivalently graded promise copy seems to go for roughly double.  For drek that would normally be less than $150 the basement seems to be about 400-500$ just to get a Promise copy of anything at all (see the recent 8.5 range late Run Whiz comics as an example).  

For highest graded copies its harder to tell because you never know what those might go for to begin with, I suspect for most of these books the promise premium is not as high because people are mostly paying for it being the highest graded copy.

Agree.

[jimbo_7071]

On 10/9/2021 at 2:06 PM, RareHighGrade said:

Agree.

I've only put purchased 2 Promise books, but from what I've seen, they are not as fresh as Mile Highs or White Mountains. I would say that they're fresher than Crowleys and Northfords—and pretty comparable to Bethlehems, Pennsylvanias, and Ohios.

The Promise books got some grade bumps beyond what most pedigree books get, so a 9.2 Promise is not as nice as a 9.2 Ohio, etc.—but the freshness is comparable.

Edited October 9, 2021 by jimbo_7071

[tth2]

On 10/9/2021 at 11:05 PM, path4play said:

Anyone have a rough number for the multiple the Promise Pedigree books are garnering over over-street or non-ped fmv?

 

My only personal experience is that a Promise book traded at a discount to its Vancouver counterpart.

Promise copy, CGC 9.4, realized $660 on Heritage in August. 

Vancouver copy, same grade, slightly better PQ but worse cut, realized $900 at Heritage in June.

[tth2]

Unfortunately we have no idea how prices for the Promise superhero Timelys compare to the Church superhero Timelys.

[Professor K]

On 10/10/2021 at 3:54 AM, tth2 said:

Unfortunately we have no idea how prices for the Promise superhero Timelys compare to the Church superhero Timelys.

Don't you think anything Church would be more desirable to almost everyone? Put any two of the same books in the same grade from each (or any pedigree) and the Church would almost always go for more. Not that I'm telling you something you don't already know. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 10/10/2021 at 6:02 AM, Professor K said:

Don't you think anything Church would be more desirable to almost everyone? Put any two of the same books in the same grade from each (or any pedigree) and the Church would almost always go for more. Not that I'm telling you something you don't already know. 

That will probably be true long term, but there's such a feeding frenzy around these Promise books right now that it may not be true at the moment.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 10/10/2021 at 6:43 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

That will probably be true long term, but there's such a feeding frenzy around these Promise books right now that it may not be true at the moment.

I don’t know why I didn’t think to post this earlier, but here are 2 similar books that heritage recently sold: the Crowley copy sold in a weekly auction, and the Promise sold in the big heritage auction, which ended a week later. Since I basically had my choice, I scrutinized them both closely and actually posted my dilemma elsewhere here on the boards. It was my conclusion that I preferred the Crowley 7.5 to the Promise 8.0, a sentiment shared by those boardies who saw my post and weighed in on it.  So which one went for the higher price?

[path4play]

On 10/9/2021 at 11:05 AM, path4play said:

Anyone have a rough number for the multiple the Promise Pedigree books are garnering over over-street or non-ped fmv?

 

Thanks for all the useful responses.  I've made a stab at two so far, missed both by $300 each.   I'm going to go in in earnest on some recent listings, trying to get a feel for what it might take.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]