Heritage's Next Event Auction has started posting books ! 31 31

[Ryan.]

On 4/10/2022 at 8:45 PM, lou_fine said:

I don''t believe the final grade is based upon an average of the 3 grades like before in the prior grading regimes, as I have heard from some other boardies here that the final grade is now determined by the Finalizer and it's up to him whether he takes the grade input from the other graders into account or not.    

If this is actually the case which I find rather hard to believe and I certainly hope not true , then it really raises all sorts of potential issues from my own personal point of view.  Then again, maybe that's just me once again and nobody else here is concerned with this. 

If that's true, and I have no idea if it is one way or the other, then it renders the first two graders useless. 

[ThothAmon]

On 4/11/2022 at 8:50 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Heritage is striking another blow to the competition now. I first saw this with the Promise Collection, but it appears as though that may have only been the beginning 

 

Advertisement aimed at our heirs. Lol. Savvy. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by ThothAmon
Poor English skills.

[zzutak]

On 4/10/2022 at 5:45 PM, lou_fine said:

I don''t believe the final grade is based upon an average of the 3 grades like before in the prior grading regimes, as I have heard from some other boardies here that the final grade is now determined by the Finalizer and it's up to him whether he takes the grade input from the other graders into account or not.

What you've "heard" may or may not be correct.  I cannot say.  But here's the evolution of the CGC guarantee (as stated by CGC):

Jun 2000: "CGC guarantees one pre-grader and two senior graders will review every comic book submitted for grading."
Jan 2022: "[CGC guarantees] the collectible has been inspected by at least two (2) professionals."

Is there a difference between a "grader" and a "professional"?  Is there a difference between "review" and "inspect"?  Are today's two "professionals" each assigning a numerical grade to the comic?  Or is one of them only counting pages (checking for completeness), performing a restoration check, or responsible for some other task (like Quality Control) that does not involve assigning a numerical grade to the comic?  Inquiring minds want to know. 

I still remember the early days, when you could learn the the three grades that had been assigned to a book via a quick phone inquiry.    Considering the many examples of tragically lax/soft grading I've seen during the past two years, I certainly hope CGC's as-slabbed grades are now the opinion of a single individual as opposed to the consensus of two or three. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by zzutak
Typo Fixed

[mwotka]

I agree the standards need some tightening, but I suspect they are adjusting to the new reality of being ten or twenty or however many times larger than 20 years ago.  I just saw a modern key book at a local show yesterday, which should supposedly have a tighter standard than GA, and it had spine ticks breaking color down the spine 2-3 times worse than the Batman 89 and got an 8.5 (new label too).  I was honestly shocked looking at it.  The Gangsters Can't Win also is pretty rough with those color-breaking surface scratches.  However that top corner damage could be a production defect, a common occurrence back then, and I've heard of/seen those top and bottom binding tears being somewhat overlooked.  But I think this is good feedback for CGC to hear.  And the flip side is I was talking to a dealer a few weeks ago that sent some books into CBCS to get a quicker turnaround and all the labels didn't even reflect the correct issues, and it was for like an X-Men 4  so he was kinda on hold with dollars stuck in unsellable merchandise until they corrected them.  It think it was 4 books in one grade lot, he was pretty annoyed.  They of course copped to it and fixed it for him, but still that is pretty basic QC.  I would imagine it is hard to find competent graders everywhere, just like most all industries are struggling to find competent employees of all types.   More good reason to buy the book and not the number.  

Also did you all notice some of the crazy numbers realized on some of the Four Color cartoon and photo covers yesterday? Several thousand each, but it seemed to me that the ones that said single highest grade got the biggest bump.  I like Davey Crockett alright, but $3K for one??  I really feel like a lot of this mania is label chasers.   I know a local guy who has some deep pockets and his biggest thrill is showing off that 9.8 highest graded copy.  They legit think they have the best one that exists and the idea there might be others out there that haven't been graded yet doesn't seem to occur to them.  

[TheLexLuthorCollection]

On 4/10/2022 at 7:48 PM, tth2 said:

Which are not going cheap!

It's actually been interesting checking the census on a lot of the Promise books and realizing there are so few slabbed high grade copies of books from the late 1940s. 

I knew this was the case with books from the early 50s, as Edgar Church's buying petered out, but I thought he was still going strong into the late 1940s and therefore the census would already be populated with slabbed high grade Church copies.  But apparently that's not the case, particularly with non-mainstream titles.

Many of the most desirable Edgar Church books have not been slabbed.  These are owned by long time collectors who, for various reasons, have elected not to slab their books.  An example is the Dentist (aka DA) who perhaps has the most impressive collection of Edgar Church books.

[zzutak]

On 4/11/2022 at 7:51 AM, mwotka said:

The Gangsters Can't Win also is pretty rough with those color-breaking surface scratches.  However that top corner damage could be a production defect.

I appreciate what you're trying to say.    However, in my opinion, the as-slabbed grade on the Promise copy of GCW #2 is a clear example of lax/soft grading that has nothing to do with this issue's typical as-printed condition.  Just compare the Promise copy with other nice CGC-certified examples of this very same issue.

     

Edited April 11, 2022 by zzutak

[ThothAmon]

On 4/11/2022 at 10:51 AM, mwotka said:

I agree the standards need some tightening

Please not on the books I’m submitting. In all seriousness, after the last few Heritage Auctions, I do question the impartiality of CGC graders from HA, especially in regards to the Promise Collection. In all candor I did buy a couple of them and they are spectacular but they’d be equally beautiful graded in the same manner my books apparently are. 

[buttock]

On 4/11/2022 at 9:41 AM, zzutak said:

I appreciate what you're trying to say.    However, in my opinion, the as-slabbed grade on the Promise copy of GCW #2 is a clear example of lax/soft grading that has nothing to do with this issue's typical as-printed condition.  Just compare the Promise copy with other nice CGC-certified examples of this very same issue.

     

I think this is one where you need to see the book in hand to know.  This book along with 2 or 3 others have become the flag bearers for those who want to convince you that every Promise book or book on HA is overgraded.  But the fact of the matter is that there were 5000 other books that had pretty accurate grading by what I've seen.  

[Aman619]

and the Batman 89 looks NM except for the spine issues, so in hand 8.0 may be a fair compromise. Not a spine I would like, but I remember an Action 242 that was beautiful but had numerous (8-10) white spine cracks (some 1/4" long) all along the edge that got an 8.0 over a decade ago. I say we let CGC grade the books, unless anyone else wants to take over the job and sort out the complexities of balancing the grading weight of all the kinds of defects and combinations of them. 

[zzutak]

On 4/11/2022 at 10:20 AM, buttock said:

This book along with 2 or 3 others have become the flag bearers for those who want to convince you that every Promise book or book on HA is overgraded.  But the fact of the matter is that there were 5000 other books that had pretty accurate grading by what I've seen.  

Understood.    I'm definitely not in the "every Promise book or book on HA is overgraded" camp.  The only points I was trying to make are that (1) I don't believe the most significant blemishes are production related (in the sense that they're present on all copies) and (2) these blemishes are more extensive and distracting than I'd expect to see on a strictly graded CGC 8.5 copy.  Nothing more.  Nothing less. 

[buttock]

On 4/11/2022 at 12:52 PM, zzutak said:

Understood.    I'm definitely not in the "every Promise book or book on HA is overgraded" camp.  The only points I was trying to make are that (1) I don't believe the most significant blemishes are production related (in the sense that they're present on all copies) and (2) these blemishes are more extensive and distracting than I'd expect to see on a strictly graded CGC 8.5 copy.  Nothing more.  Nothing less. 

I agree with you Jay.  Sorry if I made it seem like I was talking specifically to you.  I scrolled back through the discussion and thought yours was best to quote to keep continuity.  

[Robot Man]

Bottom line. Buy the book not the label or seller’s grade, description (or lack thereof). Grading is always very personal. I have pretty much given up on pricing. Overstreet, GPA ect are just a guide. Pay what you think a book in your grade is worth to you. My experience has always been. Within reason, if you hang on to it for a while, it will become at least a fair price or way more than you paid for it. 

[buttock]

On 4/11/2022 at 1:25 PM, Robot Man said:

 Pay what you think a book in your grade is worth to you. My experience has always been. Within reason, if you hang on to it for a while, it will become at least a fair price or way more than you paid for it. 

Yes a thousand times.  If you want it and it's available you should buy it.  At least as a collector.  No guarantee you'll ever see it again.  

[clarkkentdds]

Does anyone know anything about this "Palos Verdes Collection"? Does HA have a write up? A bunch of those books are my former copies...

[batman_fan]

On 4/11/2022 at 3:27 PM, clarkkentdds said:

Does anyone know anything about this "Palos Verdes Collection"? Does HA have a write up? A bunch of those books are my former copies...

Based on the books in it, looks like the Pennyworth collection.  Someone bought a bunch of books and is now selling

 

[lou_fine]

On 4/9/2022 at 12:02 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

Yes, but it might not be a smart play to get into a bidding war unless "winning" truly trumps financial considerations. On a book-by-book basis, it's still possible to lose a lot of money.

 

Most definitely it's possible to lose money in this marketplace, especially if you are a deep pocketed investor where money is seemingly not an object and you are willing to pay almost anything to acquire a book.  

This would certainly appeared to be the case with Gary Keller who was the buyer of this book at the time, along with a whole slew of other overpriced GA and SA books which he was willing to buy at way overinflated prices at the time.  Unfortunately for Keller (similar to Jay Parrino), he took a huge bath on most of his comic book purchases as he ended up reselling too early due most likely in large part to the real estate market taking a huge crash dive at the time. 

Really nothing new here as it has happened on other occasions before in the past, and any bets that it will happen again going forward when buyers end up clearly overpaying for a book and then not willing to wait the reuqired amount of time that it takes to correct their purchasing mistake.  

 

[lou_fine]

On 4/9/2022 at 1:40 PM, adamstrange said:

There are 13 copies 7.5 and higher.  That's a very small number relative to the size of the Marvel Zombie Collecting Community.

Well, I believe the large majority of the Marvel Zombie Collecting Community don't collect any of the Marvel books prior to FF 1, let alone go all the way back to the Timely books.  

[lou_fine]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:51 PM, tth2 said:

The Promise 9.6 Kid Colt #4 just sold in this auction for $4080.  It sold on Heritage back in September for $4800.  That's a bad flip, particularly after you factor in fees.

Unlike some other previous collections, the exact reason why we have seen so very few of these Promise Collection books re-enter back into the marketplace to this point in time.  

Based upon the prices paid for these books, that's why I also think we will see very few of them come back into the marketplace for at least the next few years, unless the winners are willing to take a chance on losing money on their Promise Collection purchases.     

[jimbo_7071]

On 4/11/2022 at 6:27 PM, lou_fine said:

Well, I believe the large majority of the Marvel Zombie Collecting Community don't collect any of the Marvel books prior to FF 1, let alone go all the way back to the Timely books.  

If the Heritage results are an indicator, the GA Timely collector base must be much more aggressive than the DC base. Random Timely books were fetching stronger prices than the Actions. Of course, it may be that a very small pool of collectors were competing for the Timely comics.

[fsumavila]

I'm mostly an observer in the GA collecting pool, but was following the two copies of More Fun Comics #73 that were up in the latest Heritage auction.

Found it interesting that the 2.0 finished at $72K, while the 6.5 hammered at $102K.

The buyer of the 6.5 copy has to be feeling pretty good, since another 6.5 OW-W book went for $192,000 less than 3 months ago!

 

Mike