Inspiration for EC’s old witch?? 0

[pemart1966]

20 hours ago, N e r V said:

...or the old witch could have been based on one of the EC staffs mother in law at the time....

Don't laugh.  James Bama used his wife as the model for the 1965 Aurora "Witch" model box top painting.

 

[Bronty]

7 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

I’m sure the copyright lawyers handling claims of original authorship would find these arguments lucrative for their hourly rates. 

We must have a copyright lawyer or two on the boards.   What about the character exactly does one copyright?   Except arguably for the name, what on earth is proprietary about an old female witch?   What is proprietary about a cauldron or about using a character as a narrative device?   

Perhaps the exact combination of those things in the manner they were used.   None of the single elements of the character were anything that wasn’t done hundreds of years before but please, continue to enlighten us :P

[N e r V]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

We must have a copyright lawyer or two on the boards.   What about the character exactly does one copyright?   Except arguably for the name, what on earth is proprietary about an old female witch?   What is proprietary about a cauldron or about using a character as a narrative device?   

Perhaps the exact combination of those things in the manner they were used.   None of the single elements of the character were anything that wasn’t done hundreds of years before but please, continue to enlighten us :P

Like any other character in comics it could certainly be trademarked as such. Have no idea if one exists for the EC characters but the stories are still under copyright and not public domain, correct?

One of my friends was one of the hated Disney attorneys and did work in the area of IP law but unless you want to be bored, annoyed by how the legal system works and prepared to argue endlessly over nonsense you won’t ask me to have him start posting here (he’s a comic collector too!)....

 

[N e r V]

3 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

Don't laugh.  James Bama used his wife as the model for the 1965 Aurora "Witch" model box top painting.

 

Damn, that was probably my favorite Aurora monster kit cover too. Classic.

 

[Cat-Man_America]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

We must have a copyright lawyer or two on the boards.   What about the character exactly does one copyright?   Except arguably for the name, what on earth is proprietary about an old female witch?   What is proprietary about a cauldron or about using a character as a narrative device?   

Perhaps the exact combination of those things in the manner they were used.   None of the single elements of the character were anything that wasn’t done hundreds of years before but please, continue to enlighten us :P

I'm guessing this would be an element of protecting copyright.  

Note: I'm not an attorney, but have been a vampire enforcer, so I know a dark suit and mild intimidation can get results... 

Spoiler

 

[Bronty]

5 hours ago, N e r V said:

Like any other character in comics it could certainly be trademarked as such. Have no idea if one exists for the EC characters but the stories are still under copyright and not public domain, correct?

One of my friends was one of the hated Disney attorneys and did work in the area of IP law but unless you want to be bored, annoyed by how the legal system works and prepared to argue endlessly over nonsense you won’t ask me to have him start posting here (he’s a comic collector too!)....

 

The point I was making (that there is nothing new about an old witch style character) is not the point Carman chose to debate (would copyright be enforceable).    As for arguing over nonsense, you may be right, but hey none of us is curing cancer when we post here .   

[bronze johnny]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

The point I was making (that there is nothing new about an old witch style character) is not the point Carman chose to debate (would copyright be enforceable).    As for arguing over nonsense, you may be right, but hey none of us is curing cancer when we post here .   

Agree that there's nothing new about the style, but an old witch serving as a narrator who tells horror in a comic book is a novel idea. I'm sure there are many son-in-laws throughout history who've experienced an old witch but in their case, she was always part of the story- never the narrator.

[Bronty]

Sure.   But that’s not exactly a huge creative leap.   At least IMO.   And more to the point any inspiration from the character I’d argue goes back many many years

Edited July 1, 2019 by Bronty

[pemart1966]

7 hours ago, N e r V said:

Damn, that was probably my favorite Aurora monster kit cover too. Classic.

 

THIS is the 1965 version of this kit:

 

[bronze johnny]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

Sure.   But that’s not exactly a huge creative leap.   At least IMO.   And more to the point any inspiration from the character I’d argue goes back many many years

Creative leap for comic books? Keep in mind that Mr. Crime and the crime genre started the "unique" narrator in CDNP 24. We saw other publishers follow Biro's lead. Interestingly, this happened during the war when the crime genre started to kick-off and eventually succeed on its own once the war ended even when most superheroes tried to fight crime at home. The horror genre really kicks off in the fall of 1948 and reaches its apex with EC Comics. I would argue that one of the most significant ingredients to EC's success, along with fantastic artwork, are the narrators. The Cryptkeeper, Vaultkeeper, and Old Witch are the most famous horror genre narrators during the precode horror era. Nobody did the horror narrator introduces the reader to ghastly tales better than EC. EC perfected the model. Nevertheless, when circling back to the beginnings of the postwar era that gave rise to tensions and fears coinciding with a new Atomic Age and Cold War, elements of the horror genre were appearing in the crimefighting books prior to Avon's publication of the first horror comic in 1947. Gilberton published classic horror stories in comic book format for "educational" (ironic since "E" in EC stood for "Educational")  purposes before this but Avon did it with the intention of entertaining readers. This transitional period also saw experimentation with the horror genre narrator. This is a  significant time for this experimentation since the successful Mr. Crime narrative formula worked well for Biro and company. Mr. Crime was the true inspiration for any attempt to apply a narrator to the horror genre. CDNP set many standards for success so there was no reason for competitor publishers not to follow suit. Charlton (Frank Communale) was no exception. An "Ancient Witch" would tell the story while horror was growing up in the crime comics. This witch stuck around for a short period of time, never seeing a comic of her own. She may have been the victim of "appearing before her time." As horror kicked off on its own with ACG, a successful Mr. Crime narrative formula for this genre wouldn't happen until Gaines and company came along. Did the Ancient Witch influence Gaines' version of the Old Witch? Did Mr. Crime influence Gaines' decision to use a narrative format? While there's no direct evidence linking Gaines to these characters, were he and his cadre of artists & writers aware of the recent comics published? Did they have a "feel" for the Times? Maybe. After all, artists can sometimes see things before the rest of us- aesthetic sages tuned into the underlying currents of their times. What is significant is that experimentation was happening and the horror genre was starting to come into its own exclusive comic book format. Seeds were planted. At best, the Ancient Witch was a planted seed. This Ancient Witch may not have been a novel concept if we look at centuries of literature, but her role in the time period during 1945-1948 provides a different interpretation- in the context of the evolving Atomic Age horror genre. 

[Bronty]

Oh spare me.   ‘Let’s have a witch introduce the stories’ is a good element but not exactly Shakespeare. 

[bronze johnny]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

Oh spare me.   ‘Let’s have a witch introduce the stories’ is a good element but not exactly Shakespeare. 

Does anything done in comic books compare to the creative power of Shakespeare? Boccaccio? Cervantes? 

[N e r V]

29 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

Does anything done in comic books compare to the creative power of Shakespeare? Boccaccio? Cervantes? 

 

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

Oh spare me.   ‘Let’s have a witch introduce the stories’ is a good element but not exactly Shakespeare. 

Bah! Give me a Rob Liefeld plot or peak 1970s Jack Kirby dialogue any day over some moldy hack like Shakespeare. 

 

[Cat-Man_America]

1 hour ago, bronze johnny said:

Does anything done in comic books compare to the creative power of Shakespeare? Boccaccio? Cervantes? 

Both Gaines and Shakespeare had the same first names!

As for Cervantes, I think we all may be tilting at windmills in this thread.

Seriously, go back to the image of HIT Comics #1 and read the linked article posted above it.  The character is a narrator ...though not as snarky as EC’s... and by the second issue she’s formally titled The Old Witch.  There are also physical similarities, but the Old Witch character was drawn differently even during EC’s heyday. 

BTW, has anyone seen my mic? I dropped it earlier, but folks keep running off with it.  

Edited July 1, 2019 by Cat-Man_America

[bronze johnny]

36 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Both Gaines and Shakespeare had the same first names!

As for Cervantes, I think we all may be tilting at windmills in this thread.

Seriously, go back to the image of HIT Comics #1 and read the linked article posted above it.  The character is a narrator ...though not as snarky as EC’s... and by the second issue she’s formally titled The Old Witch.  There are also physical similarities, but the Old Witch character was drawn differently even during EC’s heyday. 

BTW, has anyone seen my mic? I dropped it earlier, but folks keep running off with it.  

Do we know if Gaines got along with his mother-in-law? Was he her "sonny boy?" Or did she direct the cops to "arrest that fat one and these must be members of his gang?"

[Cat-Man_America]

5 minutes ago, bronze johnny said:

Do we know if Gaines got along with his mother-in-law? Was he her "sonny boy?" Or did she direct the cops to "arrest that fat one and these must be members of his gang?"

Speculation abounds, but we don’t even know with certainty whether it was Gaines or Feldstein pitching the character.  The Vault Keeper and Crypt Keeper are straight forward enough tie-ins to the titles of their books, The Old Witch is another matter.  Interestingly, all of the characters evolved in appearance in coordination with the artists who became most associated with their respective series.  

Also, ...interesting factoid... at one point professional photos of the artists made up to look like their characters were done and mailed out to EC Fan Addict club members.

[Robot Man]

[bronze johnny]

4 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Speculation abounds, but we don’t even know with certainty whether it was Gaines or Feldstein pitching the character.  The Vault Keeper and Crypt Keeper are straight forward enough tie-ins to the titles of their books, The Old Witch is another matter.  Interestingly, all of the characters evolved in appearance in coordination with the artists who became most associated with their respective series.  

Also, ...interesting factoid... at one point professional photos of the artists made up to look like their characters were done and mailed out to EC Fan Addict club members.

I remember seeing the photos- the fun fans had back in those days! 

 

[fifties]

In "The Illustrated History Horror Comics", by Mike Benton, he states;

Quote

The Old Witch and her comic book horror buddies were directly inspired by a horror radio show of the 1930's called, The Witches Tale.  The show was hosted by "Old Nancy, The Witch of Salem, and Satan, her wise black cat."

 

[Cat-Man_America]

1 hour ago, fifties said:

In "The Illustrated History Horror Comics", by Mike Benton, he states;

 

Mike Benton’s books, while decent reference for some things aren’t 100% accurate.  They’re fast, fun reads with loads of great illustrations, but as reference sources, they’re sorta like D&J Readers for fandom.  It isn’t that he didn’t make a good effort, it’s just that he takes short cuts in providing a historical view designed as an introduction for the average collector.  This cursory approach is great for building interest in topics, but rather unsatisfying overall as informative reference tools.

in fact, the quote Mike provided raises more questions than it answers.  “Old Nancy” may be the witch of Salem and Satan with a wise black cat, but that bears little resemblance to EC’s Old Witch which follows more closely the Old Witch including the lack of any visualization.  HIT Comics in 1940 provides a closer depiction including name identity.

I’d also add that there are good legal reasons to say a character was inspired from a radio show with vague similarities rather than the more obvious lifting of an idea from another publisher with visual cues that might elicit claims of infringement.  Of coarse, the elapsed time between interviews and claims of inspiration probably makes this a moot point from a legal perspective.  Nevertheless, just because claims published in a minor reference work are based on quotes doesn’t necessarily mean that those claims can be verified as truthful.

Please don’t take this as a criticism of your post.  You are trying to provide more information as source material for the discussion.  What I’m saying is that there are visualizations of the character in comics which demonstrably conflict with some historical assertions.  My dropped mic is still missing, but I found my beer mug!   

Edited July 3, 2019 by Cat-Man_America
D&J Readers. Jane worked, Richard didn’t. *spoon!*