Inspiration for EC’s old witch?? 0

[fifties]

51 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Mike Benton’s books, while decent reference for some things aren’t 100% accurate.  They’re fast, fun reads with loads of great illustrations, but as reference sources, they’re sorta like D&J Readers for fandom.  It isn’t that he didn’t make a good effort, it’s just that he takes short cuts in providing a historical view designed as an introduction for the average collector.  This cursory approach is great for building interest in topics, but rather unsatisfying overall as informative reference tools.

in fact, the quote Mike provided raises more questions than it answers.  “Old Nancy” may be the witch of Salem and Satan with a wise black cat, but that bears little resemblance to EC’s Old Witch which follows more closely the Old Witch including the lack of any visualization.  HIT Comics in 1940 provides a closer depiction including name identity.

I’d also add that there are good legal reasons to say a character was inspired from a radio show with vague similarities rather than the more obvious lifting of an idea from another publisher with visual cues that might elicit claims of infringement.  Of coarse, the elapsed time between interviews and claims of inspiration probably makes this a moot point from a legal perspective.  Nevertheless, just because claims published in a minor reference work are based on quotes doesn’t necessarily mean that those claims can be verified as truthful.

Please don’t take this as a criticism of your post.  You are trying to provide more information as source material for the discussion.  What I’m saying is that there are visualizations of the character in comics which demonstrably conflict with some historical assertions.  My dropped mic is still missing, but I found my beer mug!   

Well first let me say that I'm glad you found the beer mug, hopefully with some liquid refreshment in it!  Yes, Benton doesn't give any specific reference to his claim, however I have another source that I'll try to locate, more or less corroborating that Gaines and Feldstein got the idea of The Old Witch as a narrator, by listening to a certain radio program having the same type of hostess.

[IngelsFan]

This article has references for Feldstein’s radio show inspirations for the hosts:

http://www.radiohorrorhosts.com/otrcomics.html

[Cat-Man_America]

All of this is interesting and I’d never question the recollection of now deceased creators, but it doesn’t change the fact that that The Old Witch series with a narrator by that name (heh, heh) appeared in 1940.  Coincidence? Perhaps, but there are definitive similarities.  This isn’t my assertion, but the impression of others who’ve also contributed to the research.  

P. S. It was probably a missed opportunity that no interviewer with an awareness of the earlier appearance of this character asked Al Feldstein or Bill Gaines about this interesting coincidence during their lifetimes.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Cat-Man_America

[bronze johnny]

17 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

All of this is interesting and I’d never question the recollection of now deceased creators, but it doesn’t change the fact that that The Old Witch series with a narrator by that name (heh, heh) appeared in 1940.  Coincidence? Perhaps, but there are definitive similarities.  This isn’t my assertion, but the impression of others who’ve also contributed to the research.  

P. S. It was probably a missed opportunity that no interviewer with an awareness of the earlier appearance of this character asked Al Feldstein or Bill Gaines about this interesting coincidence during their lifetimes.

The fact is that we are never going to know with certainty what the basis was for inspiring EC's Old Witch. That said, what we do know with a greater degree of accuracy is that the comic book period following the end of WW 2 differed from the age that saw comics hit the stands during the war. Superheroes dominated the war years when a book was introduced during 1942 by Biro and company that would eventually contribute in giving rise to an era that hit its stride during the post war years. New found fears among Americans emanated from the Atomic Age and Cold War (i'm not going to start citing the histories of that era in America but if you pm me I can refer you to the seminal works of the period). A significant question is whether comic book publishers recognized these historical currents and reacted to them by publishing books reflecting these changes. Another question is to what extent any comic book publisher by 1950 would look back to the beginning of war years for materials when more than several years seperated that age from start of the new decade and there was a corpus of published works during the latter half of the 1940s filled with crime comic books that had examples demonstrating the rise of the horror genre along with transitional horror keys that included the first horror comic book in 1947 and the comic book that started of the precode horror era during the Fall of 1948 (hit the stands sometime prior to the Fall season). There's nothing wrong with hypothesizing (and that's what we are trying to do with no historical primary and secondary sources to work from) that a comic book created witch narrator in a crime fighting comic book published during the beginning of the post-war era and new Atomic Age and Cold War closer in time and recent memory for a publisher to draw from could be a source for EC Comics' Old Witch. To simply say otherwise is pure conjecture and discounting the historical context defining these books and their ages. Nevertheless, always fun sharing our thoughts and learning things from great boardies 

Edited July 4, 2019 by bronze johnny

[Cat-Man_America]

14 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

The fact is that we are never going to know with certainty what the basis was for inspiring EC's Old Witch. That said, what we do know with a greater degree of accuracy is that the comic book period following the end of WW 2 differed from the age that saw comics hit the stands during the war. Superheroes dominated the war years when a book was introduced during 1942 by Biro and company that would eventually contribute in giving rise to an era that hit its stride during the post war years. New found fears among Americans emanated from the Atomic Age and Cold War (i'm not going to start citing the histories of that era in America but if you pm me I can refer you to the seminal works of the period). A significant question is whether comic book publishers recognized these historical currents and reacted to them by publishing books reflecting these changes. Another question is to what extent any comic book publisher by 1950 would look back to the beginning of war years for materials when more than several years seperated that age from start of the new decade and there was a corpus of published works during the latter half of the 1940s filled with crime comic books that had examples demonstrating the rise of the horror genre along with transitional horror keys that included the first horror comic book in 1947 and the comic book that started of the precode horror era during the Fall of 1948 (hit the stands sometime prior to the Fall season). There's nothing wrong with hypothesizing (and that's what we are trying to do with no historical primary and secondary sources to work from) that a comic book created witch narrator in a crime fighting comic book published during the beginning of the post-war era and new Atomic Age and Cold War closer in time and recent memory for a publisher to draw from could be a source for EC Comics' Old Witch. To simply say otherwise is pure conjecture and discounting the historical context defining these books and their ages. Nevertheless, always fun sharing our thoughts and learning things from great boardies 

Will agree that this and other historically relevant topics in respect to the origins of GA comic characters and themes are worthy of discussion in lieu of having definitive factual information locked down.  That is why I’m going to make one final stab at putting this into perspective by approaching the debate over the Old Witch’s origins from a totally different angle, keeping in mind that we have very little corroborative evidence aside from s few posthumous musings from an interview with Al Feldstein to support claims of the character’s being inspired by a 1930’s radio program.  Bear with me on this because my hypothesis is also founded entirely on conjecture with little evidence to support it.

To fully comprehend the possibility ...even likelihood... of this situation occurring we must delve into the early 1940’s and introduction of The Old Witch as a character in HIT Comics.  “Busy” Arnold who published Quality Comics was reputedly very involved in art and story content.  Today he’d be called a micromanager, but back then he was primarily known for paying the best rates to artists for high quality work and being hands-on with the direction of the material appearing under his Quality Comics banner.  “Busy” Arnold wasn’t known to be a litigious publisher, but he was involved in every decision at Quality especially protecting his properties and maximizing profits.

One of Quality’s early costumed heroic female characters, Phantom Lady, initially appeared in Police Comics, running 23 issues and several crossover stories in Feature Comics.  “Busy” would eventually license or sell the character outright to Victor Fox’s Fox Features Syndicate years after being discontinued in Police Comics.  The only reasonable assumption we can take away from this is that some kind of financial arrangement or ownership agreement was reached that allowed Fox to reintroduce Phantom Lady in a manner of his own choosing.  This is provided as an example of how business between publishers was often conducted back then.  Basically, this is how the sausage was made.

Now let’s briefly digress back to EC and move ahead a few years, bypassing the origins of The Old Witch debate and look at another property where EC infringed on a protected copyright before making a deal that satisfied all parties involved (a win/win so to speak).  

There was a point where Ray Bradbury or his legal representatives tapped Bill Gaines on the shoulder ...rhetorically speaking... to point out that his work had been “borrowed” without his permission with enough similarity that the stories infringed on his copyright.  Gaines quickly turned this potential legal conflict into a win/win by agreeing to provide full credit for Ray’s stories.  I suspect that some kind of financial compensation agreement was involved as well. Note: A financial arrangement was also reached with Earl and Otto (Eando) Binder to publish their Adam Link series toward the end of EC’s science fiction line.

So, if you're still with me, let's return to The Old Witch and “Busy” Arnold.  

In the late 40’s, Arnold was starting to run into cash flow problems at Quality.  He was dropping variety themed lines and consolidating his most popular characters such as Plastic Man, Blackhawk and Doll Man into their own featured books.  He kept fully abreast of changes in the comic publishing industry and made several attempts to compete in the fields of crime and horror, but with little success.  In retrospect, those efforts seem lackluster when compared to what publishers like Atlas and EC would eventually become.  “Busy’s” crime and horror lines try to thread a needle between good taste and storytelling, usually coming across as a bit too sophisticated and uninvolving for the market he was trying to reach.

Where does this leave The Old Witch? Well, in late 49’ EC started publishing crime and horror in books that would eventually change their titles to reflect those genres.  The Old Witch narrator became a key part of that.  If “Busy” Arnold kept current on the changing market ...which he seemed to follow very closely... he would’ve noticed Bill Gaines employing his narrator in a series that would become The Haunt of Fear.  It’s not a stretch to envision “Busy” making a polite phone call ...or through his attorney... to EC’s offices reminding Al & Bill of the character’s origins while asking for a fair licensing fee or outright purchase.  Given the Ray Bradbury scenario years later, it’s easy to imagine an accommodation being reached that satisfied all parties.

Again, this relies on conjecture just like other postulations, testimonial evidence notwithstanding.  Given the competitive business practices of the era, I'm persuaded that this scenario is just as plausible as others put forward.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Cat-Man_America
Word-smithing.

[bronze johnny]

On 7/4/2019 at 3:42 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

Will agree that this and other historically relevant topics in respect to the origins of GA comic characters and themes are worthy of discussion in lieu of having definitive factual information locked down.  That is why I’m going to make one final stab at putting this into perspective by approaching the debate over the Old Witch’s origins from a totally different angle, keeping in mind that we have very little corroborative evidence aside from s few posthumous musings from an interview with Al Feldstein to support claims of the character’s being inspired by a 1930’s radio program.  Bear with me on this because my hypothesis is also founded entirely on conjecture with little evidence to support it.

To fully comprehend the possibility ...even likelihood... of this situation occurring we must delve into the early 1940’s and introduction of The Old Witch as a character in HIT Comics.  “Busy” Arnold who published Quality Comics was reputedly very involved in art and story content.  Today he’d be called a micromanager, but back then he was primarily known for paying the best rates to artists for high quality work and being hands-on with the direction of the material appearing under his Quality Comics banner.  “Busy” Arnold wasn’t known to be a litigious publisher, but he was involved in every decision at Quality especially protecting his properties and maximizing profits.

One of Quality’s early costumed heroic female characters, Phantom Lady, initially appeared in Police Comics, running 23 issues and several crossover stories in Feature Comics.  “Busy” would eventually license or sell the character outright to Victor Fox’s Fox Features Syndicate years after being discontinued in Police Comics.  The only reasonable assumption we can take away from this is that some kind of financial arrangement or ownership agreement was reached that allowed Fox to reintroduce Phantom Lady in a manner of his own choosing.  This is provided as an example of how business between publishers was often conducted back then.  Basically, this is how the sausage was made.

Now let’s briefly digress back to EC and move ahead a few years, bypassing the origins of The Old Witch debate and look at another property where EC infringed on a protected copyright before making a deal that satisfied all parties involved (a win/win so to speak).  

There was a point where Ray Bradbury or his legal representatives tapped Bill Gaines on the shoulder ...rhetorically speaking... to point out that his work had been “borrowed” without his permission with enough similarity that the stories infringed on his copyright.  Gaines quickly turned this potential legal conflict into a win/win by agreeing to provide full credit for Ray’s stories.  I suspect that some kind of financial compensation agreement was involved as well. Note: A financial arrangement was also reached with Earl and Otto (Eando) Binder to publish their Adam Link series toward the end of EC’s science fiction line.

So, if you're still with me, let's return to The Old Witch and “Busy” Arnold.  

In the late 40’s, Arnold was starting to run into cash flow problems at Quality.  He was dropping variety themed lines and consolidating his most popular characters such as Plastic Man, Blackhawk and Doll Man into their own featured books.  He kept fully abreast of changes in the comic publishing industry and made several attempts to compete in the fields of crime and horror, but with little success.  In retrospect, those efforts seem lackluster when compared to what publishers like Atlas and EC would eventually become.  “Busy’s” crime and horror lines try to thread a needle between good taste and storytelling, usually coming across as a bit too sophisticated and uninvolving for the market he was trying to reach.

Where does this leave The Old Witch? Well, in late 49’ EC started publishing crime and horror in books that would eventually change their titles to reflect those genres.  The Old Witch narrator became a key part of that.  If “Busy” Arnold kept current on the changing market ...which he seemed to follow very closely... he would’ve noticed Bill Gaines employing his narrator in a series that would become The Haunt of Fear.  It’s not a stretch to envision “Busy” making a polite phone call ...or through his attorney... to EC’s offices reminding Al & Bill of the character’s origins while asking for a fair licensing fee or outright purchase.  Given the Ray Bradbury scenario years later, it’s easy to imagine an accommodation being reached that satisfied all parties.

Again, this relies on conjecture just like other postulations, testimonial evidence notwithstanding.  Given the competitive business practices of the era, I'm persuaded that this scenario is just as plausible as others put forward.

Interesting but keep in mind that the guys running Charlton, Santangelo and Levy, served time in jail, and Santangelo, in particular, went away for copyright infringement. Together they ran a low budget operation and there's no evidence (at least I couldn't find any in my research) of Charlton taking any litigious action against contemporary publishers during the time period from when Santangelo and Levy first published their line of comics to the Old Witch's first appearance in EC Comics. The idea of Charlton seeking legal action against competitors for copyright infringement when the credibility of Santangelo and Levy for past illegal acts that resulted in criminal convictions, and in Santangelo's case, a criminal conviction for copyright infringement, would remind their attorneys of the disadvantages they'd have to deal with in a court room battle. Gaines had been in the business for some time and knew the layout of the comic book publishing business land when EC started publishing crime (Pre Trend) and horror (New Trend)(romance too but not relevant for this discussion). Gaines had to have known about the small publisher in nearby Connecticut and I'm sure he had knowledge of Santangelo and Levy and their operation. The question as to where Gaines and company would look for source material that might carry over into the legal terrritory of copyright infringement depends on which road resulted in little or no expenses and path of least resistance. It's likely Gaines would look at the smaller and less influential and fiscally poorer Charlton before deciding on a publisher like "Busy" Arnold who would make the call should he see that Big Bill "borrowed" from one of his properties. There'd be no call from Santangelo and Levy. And the postwar corpus of crime and horror materials would be fresher in the minds of publishers seeking to begin their own endeavors into these genres. Moreover, what is factual is that EC introduced the first of its horror narrators, the Cryptkeeper, in the pre-trend crime anthology. This is similar to what Charlton when it introduced the Ancient Witch in a crime anthology that starred a superhero crime fighter- reacting to the new found fears and tensions Americans had at the beginnings of the Atomic Age and Cold War. Gaines and company would up the ante by giving the postwar generation a comic book line of great scary stories narrated by Keepers and an Old Witch. 

Edited July 6, 2019 by bronze johnny