Joshua33 Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Ok folks. Asking for your help... I know this has been discussed, but I would like opinions from fellow boardies. If Superman 4 was published first, available on newsstands first, and was read by the public first, how is Action 23 considered the first appearance of Lex Luthor? GO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Point Five Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 6 hours ago, Joshua33 said: If Superman 4 was published first, available on newsstands first, and was read by the public first, That is news to me. What is your source on that? Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 20, 2019 Author Share Posted July 20, 2019 30 minutes ago, Point Five said: That is news to me. What is your source on that? DC Publications has stated the shelf date for Superman 4 was 2/15/40, whereas Action 23 was 2/23/40. CBSI argument has a ton of links, I would start there. I went down the rabbit hole for awhile, and EVERYTHING besides INTENT by publisher shows Superman 4 was first, even though it was supposed to debut later. Point Five 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstances Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 (edited) Well, Superman was a quarterly? at the time. So #4 was the Spring, 1940 issue (covering April, May and June, and expected to be on the stands for three months?). Action was a monthly, so #23 was the April, 1940 issue. I have the #4, don't remember the Luthor story. I don't have the #23. But if Superman doesn't know who Luthor is in #23 (Luthor's introduction), and he knows who he is in Superman #4 (oh, this person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed is back), it's clear that Action #23 was his first appearance and it was just by happenstance that the Spring issue of Superman hit the stand days before the April issue of Action. Just speculating here. Edited July 20, 2019 by circumstances Professor K and Joshua33 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 I always thought Superman 4 was the first Lex L. I think overstreet does not want to change it but yes IMO Sup 4 is first Lex and Action 27 is the first L. Lane cover …………………………….. Who's with me like this page Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 20, 2019 Author Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 hour ago, circumstances said: Well, Superman was a quarterly? at the time. So #4 was the Spring, 1940 issue (covering April, May and June, and expected to be on the stands for three months?). Action was a monthly, so #23 was the April, 1940 issue. I have the #4, don't remember the Luthor story. I don't have the #23. But if Superman doesn't know who Luthor is in #23 (Luthor's introduction), and he knows who he is in Superman #4 (oh, this person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed is back), it's clear that Action #23 was his first appearance and it was just by happenstance that the Spring issue of Superman hit the stand days before the April issue of Action. Just speculating here. While I agree with you about intent, the fact of the matter is people alive and picking up books from the newsstands back then saw Lex in Super 4 BEFORE Action 23. Not to mention Spring vs April is overshadowed by DCs own publication month designation. Action 23 is listed as April 1940, whilst Superman 4 is listed as March 1940. Superman appears in both in multiple panels with convos in color, just to eliminate cameo arguments. Superman 4 is also the first comic to feature ENTIRELY newly written Superman content. Superman 3 was PARTIAL new, partial strip reprint. I appreciate your comments and opinion. They are extremely valuable!!! Hopefully at the end of this thread, whether we have a definitive answer or not, we all appreciate Superman 4 more for its historic significance and undervalued importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine48 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 And four's my fave number,so Superman 4 just rocks that much more Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstances Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 22 minutes ago, Joshua33 said: While I agree with you about intent, the fact of the matter is people alive and picking up books from the newsstands back then saw Lex in Super 4 BEFORE Action 23. Not to mention Spring vs April is overshadowed by DCs own publication month designation. Action 23 is listed as April 1940, whilst Superman 4 is listed as March 1940. Superman appears in both in multiple panels with convos in color, just to eliminate cameo arguments. Superman 4 is also the first comic to feature ENTIRELY newly written Superman content. Superman 3 was PARTIAL new, partial strip reprint. I appreciate your comments and opinion. They are extremely valuable!!! Hopefully at the end of this thread, whether we have a definitive answer or not, we all appreciate Superman 4 more for its historic significance and undervalued importance. But story-wise, can we confirm in Action 23 Superman has no idea who Luther is and in Superman 4 he acts like he's met him before? Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N e r V Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 According to release date known on the two books the poster is correct. I believe this may be more misinformation from Overstreet that CGC is using. Either way the stories may have been written it should be treated the same way the first two appearances of Sandman are treated. Action comics #23 (first conceived Luthor story), Superman #4 (first appearance of Luthor). A number of sites already list Action comics #23 as the first chronological appearance of Luthor only. lou_fine and Joshua33 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 20, 2019 Author Share Posted July 20, 2019 24 minutes ago, circumstances said: But story-wise, can we confirm in Action 23 Superman has no idea who Luther is and in Superman 4 he acts like he's met him before? I have read both stories and agree with you. It basically boils down to INTENT VS PUBLICATION with me. I dont think Overstreet and CGC are taking this seriously. You are in one of two camps. In Action 23, Superman is introduced to Luthor. In Superman 4, WE are introduced to Luthor. Which is more important? If history has taught us anything (Spiderman Symbiote), newsstand date eventually closes its case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 20, 2019 Author Share Posted July 20, 2019 15 minutes ago, N e r V said: According to release date known on the two books the poster is correct. I believe this may be more misinformation from Overstreet that CGC is using. Either way the stories may have been written it should be treated the same way the first two appearances of Sandman are treated. Action comics #23 (first conceived Luthor story), Superman #4 (first appearance of Luthor). A number of sites already list Action comics #23 as the first chronological appearance of Luthor only. As much as Action 23 owners are going to hate on this, I agree completely. The logical order isnt muddy, at least in ACTUAL first; only in intended first. Unfortunately, thus far, the community at large has stuck with an illogical conclusion to date. My opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstances Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 As I said, I have Supes 4 and don't have Action 23. I'm good with Supes 4 being considered the first appearance of Luthor by all! Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 20, 2019 Author Share Posted July 20, 2019 41 minutes ago, circumstances said: As I said, I have Supes 4 and don't have Action 23. I'm good with Supes 4 being considered the first appearance of Luthor by all! You can read both issues in entirety at readcomicsonline. Just to be clear Superman 4 shows Superman seeing Luthor from a distance and states "Luthor! The mad scientist who wants to take over the world". In Action 23 Luthor is guarding Lois and explains "I want to turn the powers of the world against each other". These are the comparison lines most use to lobby that Superman knew Luthor prior to Superman 4. However it is never clearly stated he knows Luthor already in either book. In fact he has a huge contest of intellect and skill in Superman 4, vs smashing Luthors death ray in Action 23. I really think this is further a case for superman 4, personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowzilla Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Seems I remember the first time I heard this was Mark Wilson stating this argument in the 90s on the cover of an old World's Finest catalog. Overstreet will continue to do what he always does. Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N e r V Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 3 hours ago, Crowzilla said: Seems I remember the first time I heard this was Mark Wilson stating this argument in the 90s on the cover of an old World's Finest catalog. Overstreet will continue to do what he always does. Which is offer us only the best in misinformation no matter who or what higher sources offer us to the contrary... I don’t believe anyone cares about Overstreet these days just wish CGC would only use information from them that is accurate. There are some obvious ones like this case where it’s pretty easy to figure out. Joshua33 and The Mad Irishman 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Ries Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 I kind of wonder if the story for Superman 4 was meant for Action 23 and vice versa. Like the Jokers 1st appearance was originally meant for a story in Detective Comics but was used as fodder for the fledgling Batman title instead. If the release dates were so close, it wouldn't surprise me if the wrong story got submitted for Superman 4 and it went to press. Ooops. Too late, Luthor. Too late. Joshua33 and Larryw7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Captain Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Larryw7 and Timely 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Black Captain Posted July 20, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 20, 2019 The page above is from Superman #4. The first panel quote is from Luther indicating that they have encountered one another in the past. Action #23 has no such indication. I think that makes #23 the first time Luther was written pen to paper even if the publication is off. Superman2006, Joshua33, comicdonna and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Captain Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Captain Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 The page above is from Action #23. The sixth panel is superman meeting Luther for the first time a stark difference from the Superman #4 page that I listed. I think that makes #23 the first time Luther was written pen to paper even if the publication is off. LDarkseid1, Joshua33 and MBFan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
