Casablanca Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Jaydogrules said: Anyone attempting to argue that Superman 4 (a quarterly), that may or may not have hit stands a few days before Action 23 (a monthly) is the "real first appearance of Lex" is making nothing but a purely semantic argument that ignores canon and author/publisher intent. Which is especially odd given that comics, by their very nature, are a sequential storytelling medium. It is indisputable that the canonical first appearance is Action 23, something that a potential quirk in the books' delivery dates does not undermine, as evidenced by the fact that no legitimate comic book authority has EVER called superman 4 anything other than the second appearance of Lex (if even that). -J. Sheesh...seems a bit harsh on the OP. I think there is a legitimate point by Joshua33 of identifying the release dates of the 2 books and seems like a logical question on his behalf. If i were a kid back then and saw these 2 releases a week apart , i think i would be a bit confused as well. I will defer to the expertise of those on the board and the comic book authority as to the first appearance of Lex. I always thought it was Action 23 anyways Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 18 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: Anyone attempting to argue that Superman 4 (a quarterly), that may or may not have hit stands a few days before Action 23 (a monthly) is the "real first appearance of Lex" is making nothing but a purely semantic argument that ignores canon and author/publisher intent. Which is especially odd given that comics, by their very nature, are a sequential storytelling medium. It is indisputable that the canonical first appearance is Action 23, something that a potential quirk in the books' delivery dates does not undermine, as evidenced by the fact that no legitimate comic book authority has EVER called superman 4 anything other than the second appearance of Lex (if even that). -J. You said "May or May Not" have hit stands. Do you have evidence that DC Comics, or anybody else whom has shown proof of publication and newsstand dates, and claims Superman 4 came first in time is lying? Because it seems like that's where we are right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lou_fine Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 23 hours ago, N e r V said: According to release date known on the two books the poster is correct. I believe this may be more misinformation from Overstreet that CGC is using. Either way the stories may have been written it should be treated the same way the first two appearances of Sandman are treated. Action comics #23 (first conceived Luthor story), Superman #4 (first appearance of Luthor). A number of sites already list Action comics #23 as the first chronological appearance of Luthor only. I believe we have a here. Yes, this is definitely the exact same scenario as the GA Sandman where Overstreet had incorrectly given first appearance credits of the Sandman character to Adventure Comics #40. It was not until the 21st edition of his guide back in 1991 before he finally corrected this mistake by stating that although Adventure 40 was the first conceived and drawn Sandman story, the first published appearance of the Sandman was in the pages of New York World's Fair 1939. Although it took Overstreet 21 years before he finally acknowledged his mistake with the Sandman's first appearance, maybe he will hopefully finally get around to acknowledging and correcting his mistake with respect to Luthor's first appearance after 50 long years and in time for next year's edition of the guide. woowoo, porcupine48 and Joshua33 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lou_fine Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 18 hours ago, Crowzilla said: Seems I remember the first time I heard this was Mark Wilson stating this argument in the 90s on the cover of an old World's Finest catalog. Overstreet will continue to do what he always does. For those who always claim that Overstreet is irrelevant in terms of today's marketplace, this is actually proof positive that he has and does continue to have a significant influence in the pricing of books. Even though collectors in the know should be well aware of the true first published appearances for both the Sandman and Luthor characters by now, it would appear that the buying public continues to follow along with Overstreet's initial errors if his price guide valuations are an accurate reflection of the true relative valuations between the various books. Especially since Overstreet has a valuation of $170K for Adventure 40 at top of guide, while only a valuation of $31K for NY World's Fair 1939 at top of guide in this year's new edition of the guide. Likewise, Overstreet has a valuation of $70K for Action 23 and yet a valuation of only $17,500 for Supes 4 at top of guide. Common sense should have dictated that this kind of price discrepancy should not be so signficant in light of the initial errors in the price guide. The mere fact that they have and continue to do so to this day shows the continuing influence of the guide even in today's much faster moving marketplace when access to information is much more readily available and more quickly disseminated to the marketplace. Joshua33 and Larryw7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, lou_fine said: For those who always claim that Overstreet is irrelevant in terms of today's marketplace, this is actually proof positive that he has and does continue to have a significant influence in the pricing of books. Even though collectors in the know should be well aware of the true first published appearances for both the Sandman and Luthor characters by now, it would appear that the buying public continues to follow along with Overstreet's initial errors if his price guide valuations are an accurate reflection of the true relative valuations between the various books. Especially since Overstreet has a valuation of $170K for Adventure 40 at top of guide, while only a valuation of $31K for NY World's Fair 1939 at top of guide in this year's new edition of the guide. Likewise, Overstreet has a valuation of $70K for Action 23 and yet a valuation of only $17,500 for Supes 4 at top of guide. Common sense should have dictated that this kind of price discrepancy should not be so signficant in light of the initial errors in the price guide. The mere fact that they have and continue to do so to this day shows the continuing influence of the guide even in today's much faster moving marketplace when access to information is much more readily available and more quickly disseminated to the marketplace. Maybe because the "true first published appearance" of Luthor is Action 23 (as certainly DC did not "publish" the second appearance of Lex- "a-ha, we meet again!"-first, lol). That Superman 4 (a quarterly) may or may not have been dropped off at the newsstands a few days before Action 23 (a monthly) does not undermine nor supersede publisher intent. You are making a purely semantic argument that reminds me a lot of the "but, but, but why doesn't Hulk 180 sell for more than Hulk 181?" variety. After 40-80 years people know what are in these books and they know what they are buying. No one has anything "wrong". I get it, Superman 4 is cheap and much more common than Action 23. But it's also the second appearance of Lex, and will always only be that. -J. Edited July 21, 2019 by Jaydogrules Black Captain and BraveDave 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Captain Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jaydogrules said: Maybe because the "true first published appearance" of Luthor is Action 23 (as certainly DC did not "publish" the second appearance of Lex- "a-ha, we meet again!"-first, lol). That Superman 4 (a quarterly) may or may not have been dropped off at the newsstands a few days before Action 23 (a monthly) does not undermine nor supersede publisher intent. You are making a purely semantic argument that reminds me a lot of the "but, but, but why doesn't Hulk 180 sell for more than Hulk 181?" variety. After 40-80 years people know what are in these books and they know what they are buying. No one has anything "wrong". I get it, Superman 4 is cheap and much more common than Action 23. But it's also the second appearance of Lex, and will always only be that. -J. Content will always be king Edited July 21, 2019 by Black Captain BraveDave and Joshua33 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 5 hours ago, Jaydogrules said: Maybe because the "true first published appearance" of Luthor is Action 23 (as certainly DC did not "publish" the second appearance of Lex- "a-ha, we meet again!"-first, lol). That Superman 4 (a quarterly) may or may not have been dropped off at the newsstands a few days before Action 23 (a monthly) does not undermine nor supersede publisher intent. You are making a purely semantic argument that reminds me a lot of the "but, but, but why doesn't Hulk 180 sell for more than Hulk 181?" variety. After 40-80 years people know what are in these books and they know what they are buying. No one has anything "wrong". I get it, Superman 4 is cheap and much more common than Action 23. But it's also the second appearance of Lex, and will always only be that. -J. I'm sorry, but you are speaking incorrectly. Action 23 was published AFTER Superman 4, not before. Show the publication dates that say otherwise. You keep trying to make your argument with inaccuracies. I appreciate the opinions. That's what this thread was created for, but let's not continue to make up stuff and state it as fact. If you want to believe that the 2nd book to come out with Luthor in it is his first appearance, That's totally cool. The Hulk comparison is weak. Hulk 180, whilst published BEFORE 181, is a one panel cameo. Superman 4 Luthor story is essentially the whole shebang, and was published and released first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, Joshua33 said: I'm sorry, but you are speaking incorrectly. Action 23 was published AFTER Superman 4, not before. Show the publication dates that say otherwise. You keep trying to make your argument with inaccuracies. I appreciate the opinions. That's what this thread was created for, but let's not continue to make up stuff and state it as fact. If you want to believe that the 2nd book to come out with Luthor in it is his first appearance, That's totally cool. The Hulk comparison is weak. Hulk 180, whilst published BEFORE 181, is a one panel cameo. Superman 4 Luthor story is essentially the whole shebang, and was published and released first. You've officially veered into La-La Land dude. But yeah, sure you're right, whatever you say. I think you've really stumbled onto something here. Something everyone has missed and had all wrong for the last nearly 100 years. Better hurry up and stock up on more of those cheap and common Superman 4's. I hear they're about to explooooooooode. -J. -J. Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: You've officially veered into La-La Land dude. But yeah, sure you're right, whatever you say. I think you've really stumbled onto something here. Something everyone has missed and had all wrong for the last nearly 100 years. Better hurry up and stock up on more of those cheap and common Superman 4's. I hear they're about to explooooooooode. -J. -J. Love it when somebody gets BIG MAD they lost an argument. Now its insults because the facts dont support your argument? Ok. Let's just go with your new statement since you dont like publication history... Superman 4 is "cheap and common". If a book that costs multiple thousands of dollars in VG or better is cheap to you, congratulations on all your success. If 154 Universal copies on census is a "common" book, I give up... especially when Action 23 has 82 Universal copies on census (not exactly scarce in comparison). 1940 to now =79 years (not nearly a hundred years), dont know how you got so rich that you burn Superman 4s, with that math, but hey! This argument has been going on since the day someone figured out that Action 23 dropped out of order, it wasnt missed by everybody. If you take your OBVIOUS emotion out of the debate, and just look at facts, me stating that Superman 4 came first in publication and release date are FACTS. You countering that intent from publisher and content show Superman saw Lex first in Action, are FACTS. Everything else is opinion, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, Joshua33 said: Love it when somebody gets BIG MAD they lost an argument. Now its insults because the facts dont support your argument? Ok. Let's just go with your new statement since you dont like publication history... Superman 4 is "cheap and common". If a book that costs multiple thousands of dollars in VG or better is cheap to you, congratulations on all your success. If 154 Universal copies on census is a "common" book, I give up... especially when Action 23 has 82 Universal copies on census (not exactly scarce in comparison). 1940 to now =79 years (not nearly a hundred years), dont know how you got so rich that you burn Superman 4s, with that math, but hey! This argument has been going on since the day someone figured out that Action 23 dropped out of order, it wasnt missed by everybody. If you take your OBVIOUS emotion out of the debate, and just look at facts, me stating that Superman 4 came first in publication and release date are FACTS. You countering that intent from publisher and content show Superman saw Lex first in Action, are FACTS. Everything else is opinion, my friend. So, to reiterate.... Superman 4, the obvious and undisputed canonical SECOND appearance of Lex, was somehow "published" "before" his first appearance in Action 23 (according to you). Got it. (And no emotion here from me. I actually own the first appearance of Lex, so I don't need to tilt at windmills to try to undo decades of canon based solely on a quirk in delivery schedules for books that did not even share the same release patterns (quarterly vs monthly). Though I am trying to figure out if you're just trolling here with some of your proclamations.) -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: So, to reiterate.... Superman 4, the obvious and undisputed canonical SECOND appearance of Lex, was somehow "published" "before" his first appearance in Action 23 (according to you). Got it. (And no emotion here from me. I actually own the first appearance of Lex, so I don't need to tilt at windmills to try to undo decades of canon based solely on a quirk in delivery schedules for books that did not even share the same release patterns (quarterly vs monthly). Though I am trying to figure out if you're just trolling here with some of your proclamations.) -J. You didnt have to finally tell me you had an Action 23, I kind of got that from before. I also understand you think CONTENT is KING over PUBLICATION AND NEWSTAND history. No point in arguing with you any further. The whole point was to get opinions on what people considered more important in the first appearance discussion, not to disprove logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 And just for funsies... I love facts. Superman 4 from DC The publication date of January 23, 1940 was reported in the U. S. Copyright Office filing in the Catalog of Copyright Entries, Part 2, Periodicals, New Series, Volume 35, 1940, Number 2. Second class permit. Copyright number 452451. Action Comics 23 from DC The on-sale date (02/23/1940) is the publication date reported in the U. S. Copyright Office filing in the Catalog of Copyright Entries, Part 2, Periodicals, New Series, Volume 35, 1940, Number 2. Class B periodical. Copyright number B 449540. The filing states that Detective Comics, Inc. is the publisher and copyright holder. NOT SAYS ME... SAYS DC. aardvark88 and The Mad Irishman 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) Can we talk Action 27 and 29 what is the first L lane cover ? If overstreet changed Action 23 vs Sup 4 or Action 27 vs Action 29 how much money would be lost Edited July 21, 2019 by woowoo Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 1 minute ago, woowoo said: Can we talk Action 27 and 29 what is the first L lane cover ? Action 27 is Lois Lanes sister, Hoe-iss. That's why it doesnt get credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Just now, Joshua33 said: Action 27 is Lois Lanes sister, Hoe-iss. That's why it doesnt get credit. Give me the publication date please Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, Joshua33 said: You didnt have to finally tell me you had an Action 23, I kind of got that from before. I also understand you think CONTENT is KING over PUBLICATION AND NEWSTAND history. No point in arguing with you any further. The whole point was to get opinions on what people considered more important in the first appearance discussion, not to disprove logic. "Logic"? That's ironic coming from someone who continues to falsely state that the SECOND appearance of Lex was somehow "published" before his actual first appearance (relative delivery dates to newsstands notwithstanding, and entirely irrelevant to canon, even if occurred as you believe). And yes, when it comes to comics, content is king. Semantics are for lawyers. Your interpretation of what constitutes a "first appearance" is virtually unprecedented in the world of comics, and certainly doesn't pass the smell test in the GA (though hucksters try to make similar kinds of arguments quite frequently in the Moderns section). No, your point was to get validation of your second appearance comic. Sorry to break it to you, but people agreeing and disagreeing with you in this thread won't change anything. Kind of like it never does for those people who constantly want to flare up those hulk 180 vs 181 debates. Kind of like that indeed... -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: "Logic"? That's ironic coming from someone who continues to falsely state that the SECOND appearance of Lex was somehow "published" before his actual first appearance (relative delivery dates to newsstands notwithstanding, and entirely irrelevant to canon, even if occurred as you believe). And yes, when it comes to comics, content is king. Semantics are for lawyers. Your interpretation of what constitutes a "first appearance" is virtually unprecedented in the world of comics, and certainly doesn't pass the smell test in the GA (though hucksters try to make similar kinds of arguments quite frequently in the Moderns section). No, your point was to get validation of your second appearance comic. Sorry to break it to you, but people agreeing and disagreeing with you in this thread won't change anything. Kind of like it never does for those people who constantly want to flare up those hulk 180 vs 181 debates. Kind of like that indeed... -J. Ok, Jay Dog. Your new 4 paragraph opinion page wont change the publication dates, though. If you dont find them important... Good for you, buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 15 minutes ago, Joshua33 said: And just for funsies... I love facts. Superman 4 from DC The publication date of January 23, 1940 was reported in the U. S. Copyright Office filing in the Catalog of Copyright Entries, Part 2, Periodicals, New Series, Volume 35, 1940, Number 2. Second class permit. Copyright number 452451. Action Comics 23 from DC The on-sale date (02/23/1940) is the publication date reported in the U. S. Copyright Office filing in the Catalog of Copyright Entries, Part 2, Periodicals, New Series, Volume 35, 1940, Number 2. Class B periodical. Copyright number B 449540. The filing states that Detective Comics, Inc. is the publisher and copyright holder. NOT SAYS ME... SAYS DC. -J. aardvark88 and Joshua33 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Joshua33 said: Action 27 is Lois Lanes sister, Hoe-iss. That's why it doesnt get credit. Everybody knows the first Lois cover is Action 23. -J. Edited July 21, 2019 by Jaydogrules Larryw7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: -J. I totally get your point, even the COPYRIGHT number for Action 23 is earlier. What that indicates, is that Superman 4 was probably greenlighted and issued first by the copyright office, even though copyright had been applied for by DC on Action 23 before Superman 4. That's probably why DC didnt release 23 until a week later, waiting on the copyright office. Edited July 21, 2019 by Joshua33 Spell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
