AnkurJ Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Nuff said Superman2006 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Black Captain said: The panel starts with #22 so they could have seen each other from panel 1 to 21 ? Edited July 20, 2019 by woowoo Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjpb Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 If my intent was to collect 1st appearances, I'd go with Action #23. It's fairly clear that this is Superman's first encounter with Lex, and an earlier written story. That Superman #4 may have been on the stands a week earlier isn't that important to my way of thinking. Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 2 hours ago, rjpb said: If my intent was to collect 1st appearances, I'd go with Action #23. It's fairly clear that this is Superman's first encounter with Lex, and an earlier written story. That Superman #4 may have been on the stands a week earlier isn't that important to my way of thinking. Thanks for the opinions folks. Again, the trend I'm seeing is 2 camps. It's either more important to you that Superman is meeting Lex, or that the reader is meeting Lex first. I just cant get over the fact that readers of both in the time period, read the Superman 4 story BEFORE Action 23. To me that is very significant. They read Superman 4, and then Action, where allegedly this Luthor guy never existed, AFTER they already read a full story about him? Cmon... hard to follow the first appearance logic in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Captain Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 57 minutes ago, Joshua33 said: Thanks for the opinions folks. Again, the trend I'm seeing is 2 camps. It's either more important to you that Superman is meeting Lex, or that the reader is meeting Lex first. I just cant get over the fact that readers of both in the time period, read the Superman 4 story BEFORE Action 23. To me that is very significant. They read Superman 4, and then Action, where allegedly this Luthor guy never existed, AFTER they already read a full story about him? Cmon... hard to follow the first appearance logic in that. 18 hours ago, Joshua33 said: You can read both issues in entirety at readcomicsonline. Just to be clear Superman 4 shows Superman seeing Luthor from a distance and states "Luthor! The mad scientist who wants to take over the world". In Action 23 Luthor is guarding Lois and explains "I want to turn the powers of the world against each other". These are the comparison lines most use to lobby that Superman knew Luthor prior to Superman 4. However it is never clearly stated he knows Luthor already in either book. In fact he has a huge contest of intellect and skill in Superman 4, vs smashing Luthors death ray in Action 23. I really think this is further a case for superman 4, personally. Joshua33, You have asked the question several times what is more important that Superman is meeting Lex, for the first time or that the reader is meeting Lex first time? I think you are leaving out a VERY important fact in your consideration. In your quote you state that, "Just to be clear Superman 4 shows Superman seeing Luthor from a distance and states "Luthor! The mad scientist who wants to take over the world". You are referencing panel #23 in Superman #4 and totaling ignoring panel #22. Where Luthor clearly states,"So! We Encounter each other once more!". Joshua33, What you don't realize is that Superman #4 is directing the reader to Action Comics #23. In the 60's Stan Lee would have placed a small box in the panel for the reader to see Action Comics #23. In ALL the history of comic book discussions/debates no one has ever argued that a character's reference to meeting another character in print should ever take the principle first appearance mantle. If panel #22 did not exist there would really be a debate here but, when panel #22 directs the reader to a previous/prior issue then basic law of time becomes primary. Although, Superman #4 was published first it references Action #23 in the past. Superman #4 acknowledges that Action #23 came first. BraveDave, MBFan and Joshua33 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Black Captain said: Joshua33, You have asked the question several times what is more important that Superman is meeting Lex, for the first time or that the reader is meeting Lex first time? I think you are leaving out a VERY important fact in your consideration. In your quote you state that, "Just to be clear Superman 4 shows Superman seeing Luthor from a distance and states "Luthor! The mad scientist who wants to take over the world". You are referencing panel #23 in Superman #4 and totaling ignoring panel #22. Where Luthor clearly states,"So! We Encounter each other once more!". Joshua33, What you don't realize is that Superman #4 is directing the reader to Action Comics #23. In the 60's Stan Lee would have placed a small box in the panel for the reader to see Action Comics #23. In ALL the history of comic book discussions/debates no one has ever argued that a character's reference to meeting another character in print should ever take the principle first appearance mantle. If panel #22 did not exist there would really be a debate here but, when panel #22 directs the reader to a previous/prior issue then basic law of time becomes primary. Although, Superman #4 was published first it references Action #23 in the past. Superman #4 acknowledges that Action #23 came first. 3 hours ago, rjpb said: If my intent was to collect 1st appearances, I'd go with Action #23. It's fairly clear that this is Superman's first encounter with Lex, and an earlier written story. That Superman #4 may have been on the stands a week earlier isn't that important to my way of thi I truly get both points. I dont think I'll ever get over readers being introduced to Luthor PRIOR to his "FIRST" appearance. Tough argument. Hard to tell somebody, this is the second appearance if you've never seen him before, and saw him for the first time in Superman 4. Flipside... it's hard to sell someone on "this is the first appearance" if you read about him a week before they tell you that "this guy is new" in Action 23, when he isn't new. It's definitely debatable from an intent standpoint. Its undisputed from a logical and time based order. I mean, it's not semantics... Lex Luthor first appeared, in comics, in Superman 4. Prove me wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 Follow up... regardless of panels, Superman 4 debuted BEFORE ANY PANEL in Action 23. That's a fact, not an opinion. Nuff said. woowoo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Captain Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Joshua33 said: Follow up... regardless of panels, Superman 4 debuted BEFORE ANY PANEL in Action 23. That's a fact, not an opinion. Nuff said. Your stance is understandable and even logical right up to the point where the reader has both books right next to each other and can compare the contents. Immediate confusion would come into play. Panel #22 in Superman #4 referencing/acknowledging Action #23 in the past tense would force any reader to confusion. I believe your stance is a first in comics in this context. If a reader was asked after reading both books at the same time to determine which was written first, the reader would be forced to say that Action #23 came first from the contents alone. And at the end of the day what is more important to the majority of readers a Superman #4 that acknowledges that Action #23 existed before it or the actual date that Superman #4 was published. I am willing to bet that most/the majority consider content king and a possible publishing error does not dictate the coveted mantle of first appearance. Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Black Captain said: Joshua33, You have asked the question several times what is more important that Superman is meeting Lex, for the first time or that the reader is meeting Lex first time? I think you are leaving out a VERY important fact in your consideration. In your quote you state that, "Just to be clear Superman 4 shows Superman seeing Luthor from a distance and states "Luthor! The mad scientist who wants to take over the world". You are referencing panel #23 in Superman #4 and totaling ignoring panel #22. Where Luthor clearly states,"So! We Encounter each other once more!". Joshua33, What you don't realize is that Superman #4 is directing the reader to Action Comics #23. In the 60's Stan Lee would have placed a small box in the panel for the reader to see Action Comics #23. In ALL the history of comic book discussions/debates no one has ever argued that a character's reference to meeting another character in print should ever take the principle first appearance mantle. If panel #22 did not exist there would really be a debate here but, when panel #22 directs the reader to a previous/prior issue then basic law of time becomes primary. Although, Superman #4 was published first it references Action #23 in the past. Superman #4 acknowledges that Action #23 came first. In panel #22 who's to say that they did not see each other in panel 7 or 8 or 12 than in #22 on Sup 4 Edited July 21, 2019 by woowoo Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Black Captain said: Your stance is understandable and even logical right up to the point where the reader has both books right next to each other and can compare the contents. Immediate confusion would come into play. Panel #22 in Superman #4 referencing/acknowledging Action #23 in the past tense would force any reader to confusion. I believe your stance is a first in comics in this context. If a reader was asked after reading both books at the same time to determine which was written first, the reader would be forced to say that Action #23 came first from the contents alone. And at the end of the day what is more important to the majority of readers a Superman #4 that acknowledges that Action #23 existed before it or the actual date that Superman #4 was published. I am willing to bet that most/the majority consider content king and a possible publishing error does not dictate the coveted mantle of first appearance. I am 100% willing to concede that the INTENT was for Action 23 to be released first, and it is the INTENDED first appearance of Luthor, based on content... However, and it s a big HOWEVER. That is NOT what ACTUALLY happened. Luthor was introduced to the readers one full week BEFORE Action 23 came out. Simple. Lex Luthors FIRST COMIC BOOK APPEARANCE was Superman 4. Stating that "most readers agree with me" is a logical fallacy and an opinion (which I asked for). Let's not convolute the FACTS, though. Superman 4 debuted BEFORE, Action Comics 23. I would love to see 23 designated as "first Lex Luthor story" or "Superman's introduction to Lex Luthor". Superman 4 as "first published appearance" or "first chronological appearance of" Luthor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Joshua33 said: I am 100% willing to concede that the INTENT was for Action 23 to be released first, and it is the INTENDED first appearance of Luthor, based on content... However, and it s a big HOWEVER. That is NOT what ACTUALLY happened. Luthor was introduced to the readers one full week BEFORE Action 23 came out. Simple. Lex Luthors FIRST COMIC BOOK APPEARANCE was Superman 4. Stating that "most readers agree with me" is a logical fallacy and an opinion (which I asked for). Let's not convolute the FACTS, though. Superman 4 debuted BEFORE, Action Comics 23. I would love to see 23 designated as "first Lex Luthor story" or "Superman's introduction to Lex Luthor". Superman 4 as "first published appearance" or "first chronological appearance of" Luthor. I have a Raw Sup 4 I will look thru it to see. But Action 27 is the first Lois Lane cover right Edited July 21, 2019 by woowoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 Furthermore, (and I hate to be a Gremlin here) ,but you said "when readers have both books right next to each other and can compare content". There was a week where readers COULD NOT, because 1 book WAS NOT OUT YET!!! They had NOTHING to compare Superman 4 to, because Superman 4, for AN ENTIRE WEEK, was the ONLY and FIRST way, people could hear about this NEW LUTHOR GUY... FIRST APPEARANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine48 Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 I love this thread Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casablanca Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 I'm not a huge Supes guy, oddly enough though, huge Lex fan. Always thought Action 23 was Lex's first appearance (because i was told so, thanks to OPSG) Never really gave it a second thought, until this thread.... Joshua33 and Hutch88 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, woowoo said: I have a Raw Sup 4 I will look thru it to see. But Action 27 is the first Lois Lane cover right I'm willing to go down that path and take a look with you. Don't know what I'll find, but I will seek that knowledge with you! porcupine48 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine48 Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 It would be so great if boardie Marty Mann-who was buying comics off the stand around this time I believe-could come in with a super good memory of long ago and tell us he'd bought both that month and how he recalls it.A daydream of course,but wouldn't that be cool? Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Joshua33 said: Furthermore, (and I hate to be a Gremlin here) ,but you said "when readers have both books right next to each other and can compare content". There was a week where readers COULD NOT, because 1 book WAS NOT OUT YET!!! They had NOTHING to compare Superman 4 to, because Superman 4, for AN ENTIRE WEEK, was the ONLY and FIRST way, people could hear about this NEW LUTHOR GUY... FIRST APPEARANCE I just read the 21 panels of Superman 4 all it has is Clark Kent getting hit in the head, A bald guy throws him out the window than talks to a guy on tv who is Lex L and he tells him a reporter was there than you see panel 22 here. Edited July 21, 2019 by woowoo porcupine48 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, woowoo said: I just read the 21 panels of Superman 4 all it has is Clark Kent getting hit in the head, A bald guy throws him out the window than talks to a guy on tv who is Lex L and he tells him a reporter was there than you see panel 22 here. Ummmm, read the book! He appears from Panel 31 through 89. Hes basically the entire book...??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Anyone attempting to argue that Superman 4 (a quarterly), that may or may not have hit stands a few days before Action 23 (a monthly) is the "real first appearance of Lex" is making nothing but a purely semantic argument that ignores canon and author/publisher intent. Which is especially odd given that comics, by their very nature, are a sequential storytelling medium. It is indisputable that the canonical first appearance is Action 23, something that a potential quirk in the books' delivery dates does not undermine, as evidenced by the fact that no legitimate comic book authority has EVER called superman 4 anything other than the second appearance of Lex (if even that). -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Jaydogrules said: Anyone attempting to argue that Superman 4 (a quarterly), that may or may not have hit stands a few days before Action 23 (a monthly) is the "real first appearance of Lex" is making nothing but a purely semantic argument that ignores canon and author/publisher intent. Which is especially odd given that comics, by their very nature, are a sequential storytelling medium. It is indisputable that the canonical first appearance is Action 23, something that a potential quirk in the books' delivery dates does not undermine, as evidenced by the fact that no legitimate comic book authority has EVER called superman 4 anything other than the second appearance of Lex (if even that). -J. Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
