Jaydogrules Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, Joshua33 said: I totally get your point, even the COPYRIGHT number for Action 23 is earlier. What that indicates, is that Superman 4 was probably greenlighted and issued first by the copyright office, even though copyright had been applied for by DC on Action 23 before Superman 4. That's probably why DC didnt release 23 until a week later, waiting on the copyright office. -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 56 minutes ago, Joshua33 said: And just for funsies... I love facts. Superman 4 from DC The publication date of January 23, 1940 was reported in the U. S. Copyright Office filing in the Catalog of Copyright Entries, Part 2, Periodicals, New Series, Volume 35, 1940, Number 2. Second class permit. Copyright number 452451. Action Comics 23 from DC The on-sale date (02/23/1940) is the publication date reported in the U. S. Copyright Office filing in the Catalog of Copyright Entries, Part 2, Periodicals, New Series, Volume 35, 1940, Number 2. Class B periodical. Copyright number B 449540. The filing states that Detective Comics, Inc. is the publisher and copyright holder. NOT SAYS ME... SAYS DC. Says DC? Where is this from? Why is there one "publication" date and one "on-sale" date? If Superman 4 came first, then it came first. Intent is irrelevant. Creation order is irrelevant. But was it actually first? Joshua33 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 12 hours ago, Jaydogrules said: Anyone attempting to argue that Superman 4 (a quarterly), that may or may not have hit stands a few days before Action 23 (a monthly) is the "real first appearance of Lex" is making nothing but a purely semantic argument that ignores canon and author/publisher intent. Which is especially odd given that comics, by their very nature, are a sequential storytelling medium. It is indisputable that the canonical first appearance is Action 23, something that a potential quirk in the books' delivery dates does not undermine, as evidenced by the fact that no legitimate comic book authority has EVER called superman 4 anything other than the second appearance of Lex (if even that). -J. Okay, then what book contains the first appearance of Rogue (Marvel mutant, villain turned hero)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 56 minutes ago, Lazyboy said: Says DC? Where is this from? Why is there one "publication" date and one "on-sale" date? If Superman 4 came first, then it came first. Intent is irrelevant. Creation order is irrelevant. But was it actually first? 56 minutes ago, Lazyboy said: Says DC? Where is this from? Why is there one "publication" date and one "on-sale" date? If Superman 4 came first, then it came first. Intent is irrelevant. Creation order is irrelevant. But was it actually first? The above dates are from the U.S. copyright office. It appears that Superman 4 was granted its copyright at an earlier date (01/23/40), before the granted copyright date of Action 23 (02/23/40). This is also considered the "publication date". If you look at the COPYRIGHT NUMBERS, Action 23 is an earlier number. The copyright office goes by date of application for issuance of number. By that logic, I can only conclude that the reason Superman 4 hit the newsstands on 02/15/1940, prior to Action Comics 23 02/23/1940, was that DC was waiting on the copyright to be granted on Action 23, thus delaying it's intended release, prior to Superman 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua33 Posted July 21, 2019 Author Share Posted July 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Lazyboy said: Okay, then what book contains the first appearance of Rogue (Marvel mutant, villain turned hero)? I always thought it was Avengers Annual 10. Is that accurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimebuster Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 If Superman #4 came out earlier, it's the first appearance. This is just simple fact. People are certainly welcome to consider Action #23 to be the more important and valuable book based on the story contents. But that doesn't change publication date. This situation seems identical to me to Gambit's first appearance. It's clear from the story that X-Men #266 was intended to be his first appearance. However, due to some scheduling mishap, X-Men Annual #14 came out two weeks earlier. X-Men #266 is by far the more valuable comic and is considered more important by most readers. But his first appearance is in Annual #14. The Mad Irishman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimebuster Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Joshua33 said: I always thought it was Avengers Annual 10. Is that accurate? It is! But Rogue was originally intended to first appear in Ms. Marvel #25. The first half of that story had been completed when the title was abruptly canceled. So they introduced her in Avengers Annual #10 instead. The story from Ms. Marvel #25 was many years later printed in Marvel Super-Heroes #11. The pathway to first appearances is paved with good intentions. Lazyboy, porcupine48 and Joshua33 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Crimebuster said: If Superman #4 came out earlier, it's the first appearance. This is just simple fact. People are certainly welcome to consider Action #23 to be the more important and valuable book based on the story contents. But that doesn't change publication date. This situation seems identical to me to Gambit's first appearance. It's clear from the story that X-Men #266 was intended to be his first appearance. However, due to some scheduling mishap, X-Men Annual #14 came out two weeks earlier. X-Men #266 is by far the more valuable comic and is considered more important by most readers. But his first appearance is in Annual #14. Hmmm, yeah, nah. Think I'll just slice through all that nonsense you just posted with something from DC's own wikia: https://www.dccomics.com/characters/lex-luthor -J. Edited July 21, 2019 by Jaydogrules BraveDave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larryw7 Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 I believe Lois' first cover appearance is Action 23. Who is the falling girl on the cover? Looks like the early Lois Lane to me. I have no idea how Overstreet came up with 29 as her first cover appearance, because she was obviously on at least two covers prior to 29. woowoo and porcupine48 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 23 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: Hmmm, yeah, nah. Think I'll just slice through all that nonsense you just posted with something from DC's own wikia: https://www.dccomics.com/characters/lex-luthor -J. It's nice that's DC's online character bio (what wikia?) says that, but the publishers have a history of being inconsistent and even just wrong sometimes. If you look deeper and click on the link for his first appearance, they give Action 23 a print release date of March 31, 1940. Oops, that doesn't help your argument. porcupine48 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 21 hours ago, Joshua33 said: Follow up... regardless of panels, Superman 4 debuted BEFORE ANY PANEL in Action 23. That's a fact, not an opinion. Nuff said. Not necessarily...release dates and actual dates on newsstand rarely were “accurate “ in the 30s and 40s. Especially if you consider distribution channels were rarely smooth back then. There is just as much probability that readers bought action 23 at same time or before Superman 4 , as vice versa. They didn’t have firm street dates back then like today. BraveDave and comicdonna 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Captain Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, G.A.tor said: Not necessarily...release dates and actual dates on newsstand rarely were “accurate “ in the 30s and 40s. Especially if you consider distribution channels were rarely smooth back then. There is just as much probability that readers bought action 23 at same time or before Superman 4 , as vice versa. They didn’t have firm street dates back then like today. That is a very good NEW point in this thread. So there is a possibility that both Superman #4 and Action Comics #23 could have hit the stands at the same time. Let's also keep in mind at the end of the day, the relevance of time probably was not as important as getting say, the daily news paper out in a timely manner. Although, relevant to us, probably almost completely irrelevant to the DC publishers at the time. I think this is the missing piece in this thread. Edited July 22, 2019 by Black Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, G.A.tor said: Not necessarily...release dates and actual dates on newsstand rarely were “accurate “ in the 30s and 40s. Especially if you consider distribution channels were rarely smooth back then. There is just as much probability that readers bought action 23 at same time or before Superman 4 , as vice versa. They didn’t have firm street dates back then like today. Well, it certainly wasn't the same as it is now, but there have always been official release dates. That some distributors didn't meet the on-sale dates is irrelevant. Edited July 22, 2019 by Lazyboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimebuster Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Jaydogrules said: Hmmm, yeah, nah. Think I'll just slice through all that nonsense you just posted with something from DC's own wikia: https://www.dccomics.com/characters/lex-luthor -J. It's always amazing to me that comic fans are so concerned with the continuity of a fictional universe that they believe it somehow trumps the actual reality of our real universe. I don't really care what DC considers to be the first appearance. It's more important to me to learn what actual is the first appearance. If Superman 4 came out first, then that's the first appearance. I say if, because I don't know, I'm just going by what I am learning in this thread. If Action 23 came out first, then it's first. But what the company intended to do, or what the continuity reading order is, really isn't relevant. It can't and doesn't change historical facts. The comic that he first appeared in is his first appearance. That's axiomatic. Lazyboy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Lazyboy said: Well, it certainly wasn't the same as it is now, but there have always been official release dates. That some distributors didn't meet the on-sale dates is irrelevant. Not necessarily true. Publication dates are pretty accurate based on filings (though they are not 100% either) but on sale dates are not. They didn’t have “official” dates but intended distribution dates. The majority of 1930s and 1940s on sale dates that are listed are really “approx” Dates because it wasn’t an exact , on time distribution system we know today. Edited July 22, 2019 by G.A.tor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Captain Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Lazyboy said: Well, it certainly wasn't the same as it is now, but there have always been official release dates. That some distributors didn't meet those dates is irrelevant. Lazyboy, I have to push back on that statement. The absolute main point that Joshua33 has been making is when Superman #4 hit the stands for readers to actually pick up and read. Joshua33 said that the readers at the time would not have had access to Action Comics #23. However with this new piece of information regarding actual distribution/actual hitting the stands, the official dates are now in question. Which now makes me wonder. If DC knew of these discrepancies also, would they not also know the possibility that both books would probably be available at the same time based on their past experiences alone? Making the copyright data totally irrelevant as it relates to when the books actually hit the stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Black Captain said: Lazyboy, I have to push back on that statement. The absolute main point that Joshua33 has been making is when Superman #4 hit the stands for readers to actually pick up and read. Joshua33 said that the readers at the time would not have had access to Action Comics #23. However with this new piece of information regarding actual distribution/actual hitting the stands, the official dates are now in question. Which now makes me wonder. If DC knew of these discrepancies also, would they not also know the possibility that both books would probably be available at the same time based on their past experiences alone? Making the copyright data totally irrelevant as it relates to when the books actually hit the stands. No. There are official dates. There were no discrepancies at DC because they had their own schedule. The discrepancies were about different areas receiving their copies at different times, not the official release date, which is the only thing that matters. The copyright info was already irrelevant to the discussion because it did not include on-sale dates in that era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Lazyboy said: No. There are official dates. There were no discrepancies at DC because they had their own schedule. The discrepancies were about different areas receiving their copies at different times, not the official release date, which is the only thing that matters. The copyright info was already irrelevant to the discussion because it did not include on-sale dates in that era. Dc definitely had projected release dates of course. But if someone thinks they were “official” or always exact, unfortunately has a misconception of the reality of publishing and distributing comics at that time. Even copyright filing dates were inaccurate sometimes due to the nature of the filings. But unlikely we will ever really know since accurate records and distribution logs are not in existence I suspect. Edited July 22, 2019 by G.A.tor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Captain Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 33 minutes ago, G.A.tor said: Not necessarily true. Publication dates are pretty accurate based on filings (though they are not 100% either) but on sale dates are not. They didn’t have “official” dates but intended distribution dates. The majority of 1930s and 1940s on sale dates that are listed are really “approx” Dates because it wasn’t an exact , on time distribution system we know today. 3 minutes ago, Lazyboy said: No. There are official dates. There were no discrepancies at DC because they had their own schedule. The discrepancies were about different areas receiving their copies at different times, not the official release date, which is the only thing that matters. The copyright info was already irrelevant to the discussion because it did not include on-sale dates in that era. But Lazyboy, as per G.A. tor's response even publication dates are not 100%. So regardless of what DC's schedule was at the time, the date(s) that the Superman #4 and Action Comics #23 would have been on the stands available for sale would have been beyond the control of DC's schedule. Because DC did not completely control the exact day or dates in which their books could be picked up by customers. So in regards to this discussion copyright dates are not good enough in regards to the exact day or period that books hit the stands. Especially considering a comparison between a quarterly book vs a monthly book. It is very likely if not probable that Superman #4 and Action Comics #23 hit the stands at the same time. DC would have known about book availability at this point in history. Considering all this new information, panel #22 in Superman #4 acknowledging Action Comic #23 in the past sense would have made more sense from a readers perspective because Action #23 would have been readily available at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.tor Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) The only thing I can extrapolate is that it appears the action 23 story was finished and copyright filed before Superman 4 was so luthor “first” appears in action 23, followed by Superman 4 which one was sold first or was available to the public first cant and will never truly be known as it most certainly varied over different locales An interesting research project would be to locate copies with date stamps and compare Edited July 22, 2019 by G.A.tor BraveDave, porcupine48 and Joshua33 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
