Disney+'s SECRET INVASION show (2022?) 5 5

[Dr. Balls]

On 8/2/2023 at 4:46 PM, sfcityduck said:

I applaud Marvel for putting out shows that took the risk of not being an adaptation of a comic - especially since they worked.

I agree with that notion. I mean, we need Marvel to introduce new concepts and shows to keep the genre chugging along. The downside is that those efforts don't pay off as often, and it's not because the concept is bad, it's the writing and execution.

Secret Invasion could have been great. But they worked in Marvel's Greatest Spy and had little-to-no dramatic espionage happening. I had to give up on the show because it was just scattershot and poorly executed. I'm beginning to feel this is more the norm than the exception - and I hope this strike might kick loose a chance to change their approach.

[drotto]

On 8/10/2023 at 1:43 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I agree with that notion. I mean, we need Marvel to introduce new concepts and shows to keep the genre chugging along. The downside is that those efforts don't pay off as often, and it's not because the concept is bad, it's the writing and execution.

Secret Invasion could have been great. But they worked in Marvel's Greatest Spy and had little-to-no dramatic espionage happening. I had to give up on the show because it was just scattershot and poorly executed. I'm beginning to feel this is more the norm than the exception - and I hope this strike might kick loose a chance to change their approach.

I have been listening to how TV is typically produced, and how Disney is doing it, and it speaks to what may be a major issue.  Most shows have a showrunner, and Disney has not been using show runners in making these series.  In a traditional setup the showrunner will outline a show, write some of it, but most importantly provide the vision for the show and keep the writers focused on the task.   The studio will give that guidelines to that showrunner then trust them to guide it. They are on set to insure that things stay on track, a vision is maintained, and things are done efficiently and on budget.

 

Reportedly, Disney hires a head writer to outline a series and write usually the first and last episode.  Usually, corporate will hand down a list of edicts including general plot, but also where the fight sequences and action will go, then tell the writers to fill in the gaps. Recently, they have been telling these writers not to read the source material. Where this head writer differs from a showrunner is they often do not stay on set, so they productions are not overseen as strictly by one person.  Each episode being handled by its individual writer and a director that can also change between episodes. This apparently has led to a pattern of when corporate or the head writer do check in they then request reshoots. A rumor has it that these shows are effectively being shot 3 times at least. Then being patchworked together and stuff being left to get fixed in post. Then ultimately the VFX artists get screwed and blamed because they are often the last ones to touch a product, and have to adhear to a strict deadline.

 

The result is episodes that are very uneven in quality, and often a jumble of different things, that were edited together from different versions of the plot. Mainly due to a lack of singular vision and corporate interference. 

[Bosco685]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:00 PM, drotto said:

I have been listening to how TV is typically produced, and how Disney is doing it, and it speaks to what may be a major issue.  Most shows have a showrunner, and Disney has not been using show runners in making these series.  In a traditional setup the showrunner will outline a show, write some of it, but most importantly provide the vision for the show and keep the writers focused on the task.   The studio will give that guidelines to that showrunner then trust them to guide it. They are on set to insure that things stay on track, a vision is maintained, and things are done efficiently and on budget.

 

Reportedly, Disney hires a head writer to outline a series and write usually the first and last episode.  Usually, corporate will hand down a list of edicts including general plot, but also where the fight sequences and action will go, then tell the writers to fill in the gaps. Recently, they have been telling these writers not to read the source material. Where this head writer differs from a showrunner is they often do not stay on set, so they productions are not overseen as strictly by one person.  Each episode being handled by its individual writer and a director that can also change between episodes. This apparently has led to a pattern of when corporate or the head writer do check in they then request reshoots. A rumor has it that these shows are effectively being shot 3 times at least. Then being patchworked together and stuff being left to get fixed in post. Then ultimately the VFX artists get screwed and blamed because they are often the last ones to touch a product, and have to adhear to a strict deadline.

 

The result is episodes that are very uneven in quality, and often a jumble of different things, that were edited together from different versions of the plot. Mainly due to a lack of singular vision and corporate interference. 

Well said!

The MCU streaming series have been hit or miss. And mainly the latter. And with those stories coming out of how directors were told they are not the driver of the show - the studio executives are - it is telling why the ship has deviated from the success north star.

[drotto]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:23 PM, Bosco685 said:

Well said!

The MCU streaming series have been hit or miss. And mainly the latter. And with those stories coming out of how directors were told they are not the driver of the show - the studio executives are - it is telling why the ship has deviated from the success north star.

They need to get back to the traditional showrunner model.  It works for a reason.  The best shows are usually ones where one or two people have a clear focus, a defined story to tell, and creative control.  Corporate trusts them to execute that vision.

 

Disney needs to pick a showrunner, give them an outline how this fits into the larger narrative,  then step back and trust them to do the job.

 

Instead, Disney is attempting to control from the top by edict, and then dumping those ideas onto a patchwork of writers and directors. At the series level nobody is clearly in control, and making sure all the pieces fit. Each creative team then approaches their episode independently,  with poor coordination.  When corporate then test screen these projects or starts seeing dailies, they see things are not coming together.  So they order reshoots with more edicts.  We then have multiple versions of the primary plot, with pieces that do not always fit. Again lack of coordination and vision. Corporate then facing a deadline, at some point tells the editors, this is what you got, make it work.

[fantastic_four]

Directors haven't driven television shows since forever which is why you'll so often see one of the actors in a show serve as director for any given episode.  The idea of a writer or showrunner ultimately directing how the series goes is how it has always been for as long as I know of.  You can pick almost any show as an example but major ones across the decades include Gene Roddenberry for Star Trek and TNG, Chuck Lorre for Two and a Half Men and Big Bang Theory, Sherwood Schwartz for Brady Bunch and Gilligan's Island, Vince Gilligan for Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, Chris Carter for X-Files, Greg Berlanti for many of the DC Comics shows, etc.  All of this makes sense given that seasons and episodes need to make sense together so the Auteur theory of film doesn't work for directors of individual episodes from serialized fiction.

The idea of the Marvel showrunners being too hands-off may have some validity, but historically plenty of showrunners are rarely on set.  Many if not most will just watch the daily film footage remotely.  Certainly whatever Marvel is doing isn't working as well as their films and needs to change because while I'm biased towards Marvel's content I certainly wouldn't put any of their shows in the top half of television for any of the years they've been making them, and they clearly pale in quality as compared to Marvel Studios films.  Whatever HBO and AMC are doing is what Marvel should do because both of those networks usually produce the best premium television.

[Bosco685]

So you hire a director to create a comic book show. But you then tell that director not to read the associated comic books?

Marvel Warned New MCU Disney+ Director Not to Read the Comics

Quote

When he signed on for the job, he noted that the first note he got was "don't read the comics," with Marvel telling him that the comics "had nothing to do" with the story that Marvel Studios looked to tell in this series:

 

"When I took on this job as director, I didn't write the -script. So a lot of those decisions were made by Kyle Bradstreet and the other team of writers that we had. The first thing I was told is don't read the comics. It had nothing to do with what we're trying to do here." 

 

Instead, the MCU looked to focus on the bonds built between Samuel L. Jackson and Ben Mendelsohn during their screentime together in Captain Marvel, which would "serve that relationship" and push the MCU's boundaries:

 

"This story was really born out of the electricity created between Sam Jackson and Ben Mendelsohn or Nick Fury and Talos in 'Captain Marvel.' And they said, 'Oh, we got to do something with that.' So they found a story that would serve that relationship and would expand the MCU and other characters who are not in the comic books. I think it's a story unto itself."

Odd how when stories like that come out about Bryan Singer and the first two X-Men movies, people try to pitch how those films were trash because of this but the MCU will do it better. Then it takes that approach and delivers a mixed bag show.

Go figure!

[kimik]

So, as someone who did not watch this yet, should I? Is it better than Thor L&T or Ant-Man 3? Or on par with them?

[fantastic_four]

On 8/10/2023 at 4:08 PM, kimik said:

So, as someone who did not watch this yet, should I? Is it better than Thor L&T or Ant-Man 3? Or on par with them?

Not as good as either of those.  Few of the Disney Plus shows are as good as the films.  I agree with those who say it seems like they write a screenplay for what would normally be a 2 to 3 hour film and then just pad it out to last longer.

Having said that I generally enjoy all of the shows, some more than others.  Just nowhere near as much as the movies, or as much as most of the better television shows on other networks.

Edited August 10, 2023 by fantastic_four

[drotto]

On 8/10/2023 at 4:02 PM, Bosco685 said:

So you hire a director to create a comic book show. But you then tell that director not to read the associated comic books?

Marvel Warned New MCU Disney+ Director Not to Read the Comics

Odd how when stories like that come out about Bryan Singer and the first two X-Men movies, people try to pitch how those films were trash because of this but the MCU will do it better. Then it takes that approach and delivers a mixed bag show.

Go figure!

Again this ignore the comics approach seems nonsensical to me.  Comics just like any medium have hits and misses. With that said, they have two things going for them. One, they were usually created by people who love and understand superheroes, and even in failure that core is there. Second, given the massive volume of books and stories, virtually every type of story has been told, retold, reworked, and been put through multiple iterations. This give you a massive resource where the kinks have been worked out and many great stories have been told in a highly refined form already. So why would you ignor all that groundwork, and try to essentially re-invent the wheel? The odd of even a good writer creating a superhero story better than what has been done before and cometely original is slim.  The hardest part is sifting though everything to finds the gems you want to adapt.

[fantastic_four]

I'm not convinced having the showrunners ignore the comics is a problem.  It's crystal clear SOMEONE is reading the comics because they put easter eggs and references to the comics the shows are based upon throughout including Secret Invasion.  If the elements from the comic stories are coming from Feige and his crew then that may be fine.

Except, of course, it hasn't worked yet like it has for the films, so something definitely needs to change.  

[kimik]

On 8/10/2023 at 2:13 PM, fantastic_four said:

Not as good as either of those.  Few of the Disney Plus shows are as good as the films.  I agree with those who say it seems like they write a screenplay for what would normally be a 2 to 3 hour film and then just pad it out to last longer.

Having said that I generally enjoy all of the shows, some more than others.  Just nowhere near as much as the movies, or as much as most of the better television shows on other networks.

That means it is totally unwatchable sh ite then if it is worth than those two films. I have still not seen TL&T based on recommendations/warnings from friends who have.

[drotto]

On 8/10/2023 at 4:43 PM, fantastic_four said:

I'm not convinced having the showrunners ignore the comics is a problem.  It's crystal clear SOMEONE is reading the comics because they put easter eggs and references to the comics the shows are based upon throughout including Secret Invasion.  If the elements from the comic stories are coming from Feige and his crew then that may be fine.

Except, of course, it hasn't worked yet like it has for the films, so something definitely needs to change.  

Time for Feige to go. MCU needs new blood. When push comes to shove, he is the one who is supposed to be overseeing all of this, seeing that the pieces fit together,  and insuring a quality product.  You can make the argument that he is stretched too thin, but that is his fault. He has never shown any desire to relinquish even a small amount of creative control, and he has not acknowledge the recent problems.

Edited August 10, 2023 by drotto

[fantastic_four]

On 8/10/2023 at 5:01 PM, drotto said:

Time for Feige to go.

To be replaced by whom?  What he did from 2005 through 2019 has literally never been done by anyone else in film history.  DC has desperately been searching for their version of Feige for decades and has yet to find one.  Let's not throw out the bathwater before ensuring the baby isn't still in it...   

Let's particularly not jump to pull the plug on Feige until he's proven he can't even manage the A-list characters anymore.  Everything since Endgame has been C and D list characters aside from the last two Spider-Man films, both of which were superb.  But of course doing films on the C and D listers was Feige's call so that's also his fault, but we've got A and B listers coming up on the slate, and those are the true make-or-break titles for his legacy.

[drotto]

On 8/10/2023 at 5:18 PM, fantastic_four said:

To be replaced by whom?  What he did from 2005 through 2019 has literally never been done by anyone else in film history.  DC has desperately been searching for their version of Feige for decades and has yet to find one.  Let's not throw out the bathwater before ensuring the baby isn't still in it...   

Let's particularly not jump to pull the plug on Feige until he's proven he can't even manage the A-list characters anymore.  Everything since Endgame has been C and D list characters aside from the last two Spider-Man films, both of which were superb.  But of course doing films on the C and D listers was Feige's call so that's also his fault, but we've got A and B listers coming up on the slate, and those are the true make-or-break titles for his legacy.

He did not start the MCU, he only started to take control when Disney bought Marvel.  The fact is John Favreau and Ike Perlmutter laid the early groundwork with Iron Man which was released in 2008. Disney  bought Marvel in December 2009.  Feige did not get complete control till Perlmutter was ousted in 2015, which was well into the MCU as we know it, and the roadmap to Endgame was already set.

 

Therefor, most of the foundation was laid with multiple people's input, and everything had been laid out through Endgame. So there were people balancing out Feige, and there to question some of his decisions and tendencies.  From Endgame on, it is all Feige, and that is where the MCU started to flounder. 

 

Spider-Man is a co-production with Sony,  so Feige is the main person, but other have say when that character us used. It is it's own thing to a degree, and he does not have complete control. 

 

So yes, Feige has gained heaps of credit for the earlier MCU, but that was a time when he shared responsibilities and was required to listen to others.  Since he has gained complete control and the original roadmap had reached the end, is when things started to decline. I have no idea who could replace him however, but it is time.

 

[Bosco685]

I'm not sure if firing Kevin Feige (I doubt that would happen after his billions in box office contributions), but more who Marvel Studios was reacting to when producing properties.

I blame the hardcore fans, that no matter the quality they rushed into the breach to "protect my MCU" seeing these things multiple times so as to pad the results. This led to Marvel Studios only needing to appease that majority, and not listening to the complaints from the industry, critics or even general audiences that started realizing something was off. Even with paperheart, he posted a number of times how the MCU was 'critic proof'. It didn't matter what those folks had to say. Marvel Studios was making these productions for THE FANS. Whomever the heck that is with some of this output.

Doctor Strange 2 was a clear example where a film with heavy studio tampering made a massive amount. So there was no worries for Marvel Studios, because it could point to THE FANS were happy.

Sure. It had a $200 production budget. But even with that, it did 4.8X as revenue prior to any P&A subtraction and other expenses from the balance sheet. It was the second biggest Phase IV film. Yet there was heavy tampering and extensive reshoots that even Sam Raimi noted what he planned was drastically changed. To include swapping act positions.

Way to go, 'Real MCU fans!' 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Bosco685

[Buzzetta]

I had another moment of 'aha' when it came to this series that I give it credit for.

When the X-Men come, where were they during the battle with Thanos?  Oh... Multiverse and they will find there way here. 

When the Fantastic Four come, where were they during the battle with Thanos?  Oh... Multiverse and they will find there way here. 

When Moon Knight came, where was he during the battle with Thanos?  Oh... umm... yeah... is Moon Knight really a part of the MCU?

When the Eternals were revealed, where were they during the battle with Thanos?  Oh... they were there but they were not really there. 

Nick Fury?

Why isn't Nick Fury calling in any of his superhero pals?  Well because he pulled a Batman and came up with the Harvest which were DNA samples of all of the superpowered.  Now, Fury isn't doing this for some altruistic reasons in that he started the problem and he will finish it.  That's the line he is telling others to put himself in a good light.  Fury pulled a Batman and he wants to know how to defeat them should any single one of them go rogue.  Fury wants to take care of it without them because Fury doesn't want them to know what he has.

This was actually a positive for the show in explaining why the Avengers or other superpowered individuals were present in the show.  

[Beige]

On 8/11/2023 at 6:08 AM, kimik said:

So, as someone who did not watch this yet, should I? Is it better than Thor L&T or Ant-Man 3? Or on par with them?

It's a hot mess of garbage.

 

Even worse, it's boring as hell

[fantastic_four]

On 8/10/2023 at 7:56 PM, Buzzetta said:

I had another moment of 'aha' when it came to this series that I give it credit for.

When the X-Men come, where were they during the battle with Thanos?  Oh... Multiverse and they will find there way here. 

When the Fantastic Four come, where were they during the battle with Thanos?  Oh... Multiverse and they will find there way here. 

When Moon Knight came, where was he during the battle with Thanos?  Oh... umm... yeah... is Moon Knight really a part of the MCU?

When the Eternals were revealed, where were they during the battle with Thanos?  Oh... they were there but they were not really there. 

Nick Fury?

Why isn't Nick Fury calling in any of his superhero pals?  Well because he pulled a Batman and came up with the Harvest which were DNA samples of all of the superpowered.  Now, Fury isn't doing this for some altruistic reasons in that he started the problem and he will finish it.  That's the line he is telling others to put himself in a good light.  Fury pulled a Batman and he wants to know how to defeat them should any single one of them go rogue.  Fury wants to take care of it without them because Fury doesn't want them to know what he has.

This was actually a positive for the show in explaining why the Avengers or other superpowered individuals were present in the show.  

I'm not following the first half of your post with regards to Fury.  What does introducing all of those new characters after the blip have to do with Fury and the Harvest?  I assumed you mean he was so traumatized by being dusted by Thanos that he started searching for a way to counter all super-powered beings, but if that's what you mean what does that have to do with the way they're introducing new characters?

Just commenting on the origins for coming heroes I don't think they will pull the X-Men or FF from the multiverse.  The FF is easy--just have them get their powers now, so they were around and some or all may have even been dusted by Thanos.  Same with the X-Men--they can all just be individuals with powers some of whom got dusted that didn't know each other existed until Xavier and/or Magneto start rounding them up.  I still think they will tie the origin of the mutant X-gene to the Eternals and the Celestials like Kirby did, but we'll see.  If they do that then you can choose any arbitrary start date for when the X-gene finally activates including post-blip.

[Buzzetta]

On 8/11/2023 at 9:08 AM, fantastic_four said:

I'm not following the first half of your post with regards to Fury.  What does introducing all of those new characters after the blip have to do with Fury and the Harvest?  I assumed you mean he was so traumatized by being dusted by Thanos that he started searching for a way to counter all super-powered beings, but if that's what you mean what does that have to do with the way they're introducing new characters?

Just commenting on the origins for coming heroes I don't think they will pull the X-Men or FF from the multiverse.  The FF is easy--just have them get their powers now, so they were around and some or all may have even been dusted by Thanos.  Same with the X-Men--they can all just be individuals with powers some of whom got dusted that didn't know each other existed until Xavier and/or Magneto start rounding them up.  I still think they will tie the origin of the mutant X-gene to the Eternals and the Celestials like Kirby did, but we'll see.  If they do that then you can choose any arbitrary start date for when the X-gene finally activates including post-blip.

No.  I mean that the other shows really did not have decent explanations as to why you would not call in major superheroes or they themselves were absent from the main event. 

Fury does not involve any of the Superheroes not because he "started it and he wants to finish it because he is responsible" but because he does not want any of other superheroes to know that he took samples of their DNA ala Batman. 

[fantastic_four]

On 8/11/2023 at 10:39 AM, Buzzetta said:

No.  I mean that the other shows really did not have decent explanations as to why you would not call in major superheroes or they themselves were absent from the main event. 

Fury does not involve any of the Superheroes not because he "started it and he wants to finish it because he is responsible" but because he does not want any of other superheroes to know that he took samples of their DNA ala Batman. 

I'm mostly fine with the heroes who didn't fight Thanos being explained by the simple fact that they had no idea what he was up to.  Some got dusted and some didn't.

The exception to that are the Celestials and Eternals.  There are two possibilities there with the first being that they were both somehow immune to the Infinity stones.  If they weren't immune then there's a broad swath of possibilities I won't explore for now because it could go on for pages.