GAME OF THRONES: HOUSE OF THE DRAGON series (2022) 3 3

[jcjames]

On 10/11/2022 at 1:32 AM, Bosco685 said:

 

[fantastic_four]

So what was that last conversation in episode 8 between Viserys and Alicent about?  For a while I thought Viserys was babbling incoherently due to his mental state, but she seemed to understand what he meant.  Something about Aegon and a dream, and he wanted Alicent to do something but I don't know what.

[fantastic_four]

Here's the text of that last conversation between Viserys and Alicent:

Quote

“I’m sorry. I’m sorry, but you wanted to know if I believe it to be true. Don’t you remember? Aegon. His Dream, the Song of Ice and Fire. It is true, what he saw in the North. The Prince That Was Promised. The Prince. To unite the Realm against the cold and the dark. It is you. You are the one, you must do this. You must do this.”

In the moment I thought Viserys was talking about his son Aegon II, but now I see he's talking about his ancestor Aegon the Conqueror.  My first thought while watching was that he changed his mind about Rhaenyra taking the throne, but I immediately dismissed that because his explanation about Aegon II protecting the realm makes no sense given that he doesn't even want the throne.

But here's an article that has a compelling explanation that explains my confusion about which Aegon he was talking about:

https://nerdist.com/article/house-of-the-dragon-deathbed-confusion-alicent-viserys-vision-confession-aegon-storytelling-nightmare/

And suggests Alicent will be confused in the same way I saw and think that Viserys was talking about their son, not their ancestor.  So her appearing to understand what he was saying was her possibly believing that Viserys had a change of heart about Rhaenyra taking the throne and choosing their son instead, when that's not at all what he was saying because he thought he was talking to Rhaenyra, not Alicent--which Alicent had no way of knowing because she wasn't a part of the conversation Viserys and Rhaenyra had earlier in the episode that he's mistakenly asking Alicent to remember.

[fantastic_four]

We'll probably know for sure if Alicent is confused by what Viserys said because if that's the case the show should be showing her claiming that Viserys named a new heir on his deathbed pretty early next episode.

[Bosco685]

On 10/12/2022 at 10:12 AM, fantastic_four said:

So what was that last conversation in episode 8 between Viserys and Alicent about?  For a while I thought Viserys was babbling incoherently due to his mental state, but she seemed to understand what he meant.  Something about Aegon and a dream, and he wanted Alicent to do something but I don't know what.

He thought the conversation was with Rhaenyra who he had already shared the vision of the Song of Ice and Fire. So he was telling her to honor their discussion and foundations that will lead to this vision becoming a reality.

But he was talking to the wrong person without realizing this. Which leads to the pending conflict and the Dance of the Dragons (Targaryen against Targaryen) war ahead.

[fantastic_four]

On 10/11/2022 at 5:00 PM, Bosco685 said:

 

Do we have any real idea how long they're planning to spend on Dance of the Dragons in the show?  Hopefully it's far longer than the two episodes left in this season.  

[Bosco685]

On 10/12/2022 at 11:01 AM, fantastic_four said:

Do we have any real idea how long they're planning to spend on Dance of the Dragons in the show?  Hopefully it's far longer than the two episodes left in this season.  

Good question.

GRRM came out the other day and said it should be at least 4 seasons, 10 episodes per season.

 

[Boozad]

It needs more Otto.

[Axelrod]

On 10/12/2022 at 11:17 AM, Bosco685 said:

Good question.

GRRM came out the other day and said it should be at least 4 seasons, 10 episodes per season.

 

Much as I admire (most of) his writing, GRRM needs to not speak about some topics.  I think he also said he thought original Game of Thrones should have run at least 10 seasons, which was pretty rich of him given they ran out of story and he rather failed at providing them with any more.  So, he thought they should have completely made up even more stuff?  Or padded the show out with more of what he did actually write, regardless of how important it was (see: the entire Quentyn Martell storyline....)

[Bosco685]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:23 PM, Axelrod said:

Much as I admire (most of) his writing, GRRM needs to not speak about some topics.  I think he also said he thought original Game of Thrones should have run at least 10 seasons, which was pretty rich of him given they ran out of story and he rather failed at providing them with any more.  So, he thought they should have completely made up even more stuff?  Or padded the show out with more of what he did actually write, regardless of how important it was (see: the entire Quentyn Martell storyline....)

I get you are sharing your opinions. You're entitled to them.

But no. The creative team did not run out of stories. David Benioff and D.B. Weiss landed the next Star Wars movie trilogy contract with LucasFilm and wanted to rush GoT along to get to the next gig.

(2018) Game of Thrones creators developing new Star Wars films

Due to how they handled this transition, the backlash was such either Disney dismissed them or they bailed out of concern their GoT actions would follow over to their new Star Wars movies.

(2019) Divided Attention and Toxic Fandom: Why the ‘Game of Thrones’ Duo Bailed on ‘Star Wars’

That's the reality. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Bosco685

[Axelrod]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:50 PM, Bosco685 said:

I get you are sharing your opinions. You're entitled to them.

But no. The creative team did not run out of stories. David Benioff and D.B. Weiss landed the next Star Wars movie trilogy contract with LucasFilms and wanted to rush GoT along to get to the next gig.

(2018) Game of Thrones creators developing new Star Wars films

Due to how they handled this transition, the backlash was such either Disney dismissed them or they bailed out of concern their GoT actions would follow over to their new Star Wars movies.

(2019) Divided Attention and Toxic Fandom: Why the ‘Game of Thrones’ Duo Bailed on ‘Star Wars’

That's the reality. Welcome to it! 

Not sure what you are saying here.  They totally ran out of story.  I think that's well documented.  These articles you are linking don't have anything to do with that.  The second one in particular is talking about how their new Netflix deal was what soured the Star Wars people on them, and that was after Thrones was already finished.  

[Bosco685]

On 10/12/2022 at 3:00 PM, Axelrod said:

Not sure what you are saying here.  They totally ran out of story.  I think that's well documented.  These articles you are linking don't have anything to do with that.  The second one in particular is talking about how their new Netflix deal was what soured the Star Wars people on them, and that was after Thrones was already finished.  

1. The GoT showrunners wanted to move on to their next focus (Star Wars)
2. GRRM begged them and HBO to at least push for ten (10) seasons
3.  Instead Benioff and Weiss wanted to wrap it up with Season 8 which rushed along events including a rather quick Night King death
4. The backlash to GoT Season 8 was so great, even the actors were disappointed and still talking of it to this day.
5. Seeing how they had handled GoT and rushed into Star Wars and then signed an additional contract with Netflix for yet another project would lead Kathleen Kennedy to assume another GoT pending.

To imply they ran out of material when they had already surpassed the source when they had spent all that time building up the Night King would be ignoring reality how fast they sped up the final conflict. Even before the final war between Daenarys and Cersei. I'm not sure how any rational mind would assume there was no further story to tell before the rushed results of Episode 8.

[Axelrod]

On 10/12/2022 at 3:15 PM, Bosco685 said:

1. The GoT showrunners wanted to move on to their next focus (Star Wars)
2. GRRM begged them and HBO to at least push for ten (10) seasons
3.  Instead Benioff and Weiss wanted to wrap it up with Season 8 which rushed along events including a rather quick Night King death
4. The backlash to GoT Season 8 was so great, even the actors were disappointed and still talking of it to this day.
5. Seeing how they had handled GoT and rushed into Star Wars and then signed an additional contract with Netflix for yet another project would lead Kathleen Kennedy to assume another GoT pending.

To imply they ran out of material when they had already surpassed the source when they had spent all that time building up the Night King would be ignoring reality how fast they sped up the final conflict. Even before the final war between Daenarys and Cersei. I'm not sure how any rational mind would assume there was no further story to tell before the rushed results of Episode 8.

You just seem to be saying (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) that they could have made up more story if they had wanted to.  But they didn't want to. 

And, like, okay?  

Maybe we're just assigning blame differently then, and you think it's solely their fault they chose not to make up more story (above and beyond all the story they already had to make up to fill out seasons 6-8).  And maybe you think the reason for the shortened final seasons was just their desire to wrap GoT up quickly so they could move on. 

Whereas I am more sympathetic to them that they ran out of material to work from and had to start manufacturing story they probably felt they shouldn't have had to be doing.  And when it was clear there would be no further book, they had to plot towards an endgame, and they made up all the story they felt comfortable making up - which was basically adding some meat and bones to a rough outline GRRM had given them at the very beginning of the whole process.  And that equalled the 13 episodes of seasons 7-8.  And they decided not to pad it out anymore with more story completely made up by themselves.  

I'm saying GRRM had no business pushing for all those extra seasons when he wasn't supplying them the story they needed.  

Personally (and I've not actually studied this) my feeling is that adaptations that stick closer to the source material are usually much better than adaptations that maybe start from a source and then fly off and start doing their own completely different thing.  I'm sure there are exceptions.

[drotto]

On 10/12/2022 at 3:00 PM, Axelrod said:

Not sure what you are saying here.  They totally ran out of story.  I think that's well documented.  These articles you are linking don't have anything to do with that.  The second one in particular is talking about how their new Netflix deal was what soured the Star Wars people on them, and that was after Thrones was already finished.  

They did not run out of story, JRR Martin failed to give it to them. They in theory should have had two more novels of material, and they already cut a lot of what was in books 4 and 5.  What happened is they ran out of fully fleshed out books and were working from general outlines.  JRR Martin has said his outlines are somewhat vague, and he writes most of the character arcs, developement and B story lines as her actually writes.  Those parts are not in his outlines much, if at all.  

 

The showrunners did rush it, because they had other work lined up. Martin said he would have helped them fill in and flesh out much of the story, but they refused. They wanted to be done. HBO should have gotten new showrunners.  Martin should have finished the stupid books.  So there is plenty of blame to go around. The fact is there was more story to tell, and it should have been told better. Ultimately despite everything the should or could have been, the showrunners forced HBO hand or convinced them their plan was solid, and HBO gave in.

[Axelrod]

On 10/12/2022 at 4:15 PM, drotto said:

They did not run out of story, JRR Martin failed to give it to them. They in theory should have had two more novels of material, and they already cut a lot of what was in books 4 and 5.  What happened is they ran out of fully fleshed out books and were working from general outlines.  JRR Martin has said his outlines are somewhat vague, and he writes most of the character arcs, developement and B story lines as her actually writes.  Those parts are not in his outlines much, if at all.  

 

The showrunners did rush it, because they had other work lined up. Martin said he would have helped them fill in and flesh out much of the story, but they refused. They wanted to be done. HBO should have gotten new showrunners.  Martin should have finished the stupid books.  So there is plenty of blame to go around. The fact is there was more story to tell, and it should have been told better. Ultimately despite everything the should or could have been, the showrunners forced HBO hand or convinced them their plan was solid, and HBO gave in.

Well, the bolded is what I was saying.  I know there was/is more story, just that they ran out of what GRRM had written.  

If GRRM actually offered to help them with the remainder of the story - to essentially tell them the story that was not yet written - and they refused his offer, that's something else.  I had not heard that one before.  I always heard GRRM was pretty tight with giving up details, and I thought that he actually was sad that the show was outpacing him and was going to "reveal" his secrets and endgame before he got to tell them on the page himself.  Not that he had anyone to blame for that but himself (which he was aware of, that just didn't stop him from being sad about it).  

[Bosco685]

On 10/12/2022 at 3:51 PM, Axelrod said:

You just seem to be saying (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) that they could have made up more story if they had wanted to.  But they didn't want to. 

And, like, okay?  

Maybe we're just assigning blame differently then, and you think it's solely their fault they chose not to make up more story (above and beyond all the story they already had to make up to fill out seasons 6-8).  And maybe you think the reason for the shortened final seasons was just their desire to wrap GoT up quickly so they could move on. 

Whereas I am more sympathetic to them that they ran out of material to work from and had to start manufacturing story they probably felt they shouldn't have had to be doing.  And when it was clear there would be no further book, they had to plot towards an endgame, and they made up all the story they felt comfortable making up - which was basically adding some meat and bones to a rough outline GRRM had given them at the very beginning of the whole process.  And that equalled the 13 episodes of seasons 7-8.  And they decided not to pad it out anymore with more story completely made up by themselves.  

I'm saying GRRM had no business pushing for all those extra seasons when he wasn't supplying them the story they needed.  

Personally (and I've not actually studied this) my feeling is that adaptations that stick closer to the source material are usually much better than adaptations that maybe start from a source and then fly off and start doing their own completely different thing.  I'm sure there are exceptions.

If anyone is to blame (this is without having access to any showrunner contract language), HBO dropped the ball in the biggest way.

You have one of the most massive and popular shows in history. You are now over six seasons (they started talking about wrapping it up around that time with two more seasons) and you let them rush this along? Especially as fanatical as fans were about GoT and all the merchandising and home theater sales as a corporation I would tell them good luck on their new endeavors. We'll be bringing in new showrunners to keep the story going.

The Night King alone was such a massive buildup, the entirety of Season 8 could have focused on his army and the living defending themselves from his advances. Season 9 would have been the rebuild from that war, with both remaining sides building their alliances in advance of the throne wars. And then Season 10 would be the war to end all wars who would be sitting on the throne.

They wanted to move on to this three-movie Star Wars franchise as their next big creative challenge. HBO should have locked that down, and not allowed any immediate wrap-up. Even the filming errors throughout Season 8 with the coffee cup on the table and the water bottle at the Dragonpit demonstrated the lack of care to get this done or even Daenerys changes hairstyles in one scene. 

The level of care with production had dropped to a sloppy level of attention. Or we can blame all that on a lack of new material.

[drotto]

On 10/12/2022 at 4:34 PM, Axelrod said:

Well, the bolded is what I was saying.  I know there was/is more story, just that they ran out of what GRRM had written.  

If GRRM actually offered to help them with the remainder of the story - to essentially tell them the story that was not yet written - and they refused his offer, that's something else.  I had not heard that one before.  I always heard GRRM was pretty tight with giving up details, and I thought that he actually was sad that the show was outpacing him and was going to "reveal" his secrets and endgame before he got to tell them on the page himself.  Not that he had anyone to blame for that but himself (which he was aware of, that just didn't stop him from being sad about it).  

The fact is they cut about 2 seasons of material from books 4 and 5.  The show runners did that, and condensed 2 books into about 1 season. Major things that were cut, could have been explored, and would have added greatly to the eventual ending. Here is some of what was cut.

1. A ton of Arya Faceless man stuff

2. Daenerys taking over all of slavers bays, and the eventual battle for Slavers Bay. Would have really explained her inability to lead.

3. Tyrion's arc which actually gets him to Daenerys.

4. Arianne and the entire Dorne sub plot.

5. Varys' multitude of plots and connections. Particularly his connection with Dorne and funding Daenerys.

6. The Blackfyres and their claim to the thrown and invasion.

7. Little fingers master plan, and a lot of what happened to Sansa with that.

8. Much of the material concerning the bannermen loyal to the Starks, and the idea of the North succeeding.  

 

I am sure I am missing a bunch here, but the point is starting after season 4, they began to pair down a ton of material. Not all of it was great, and I see why some of it was done.  To argue there was not more material however is silly.

[Bosco685]

On 10/12/2022 at 5:52 PM, drotto said:

The fact is they cut about 2 seasons of material from books 4 and 5.  The show runners did that, and condensed 2 books into about 1 season. Major things that were cut, could have been explored, and would have added greatly to the eventual ending. Here is some of what was cut.

1. A ton of Arya Faceless man stuff

2. Daenerys taking over all of slavers bays, and the eventual battle for Slavers Bay. Would have really explained her inability to lead.

3. Tyrion's arc which actually gets him to Daenerys.

4. Arianne and the entire Dorne sub plot.

5. Varys' multitude of plots and connections. Particularly his connection with Dorne and funding Daenerys.

6. The Blackfyres and their claim to the thrown and invasion.

7. Little fingers master plan, and a lot of what happened to Sansa with that.

8. Much of the material concerning the bannermen loyal to the Starks, and the idea of the North succeeding.  

 

I am sure I am missing a bunch here, but the point is starting after season 4, they began to pair down a ton of material. Not all of it was great, and I see why some of it was done.  To argue there was not more material however is silly.

I did not realize this. That is a lot of content cut out of the show that could have been quite interesting.

[drotto]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:06 PM, Bosco685 said:

I did not realize this. That is a lot of content cut out of the show that could have been quite interesting.

Granted much of it was a bit meandering and at times made the story overly complex, but the Dorne Varys stuff, and the Tyrion stuff was really good.  A few more

 

1 Brans story north of the wall was truncated

2. A lot of the stuff with Old Town and the Measters was cut.

3. Some of the Iron Islands was cut and an invasion of the shield islands.

There is a lot.  They likely cut 800 to 1000 pages of material. 

[Bosco685]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:16 PM, drotto said:

Granted much of it was a bit meandering and at times made the story overly complex, but the Dorne Varys stuff, and the Tyrion stuff was really good.  A few more

 

1 Brans story north of the wall was truncated

2. A lot of the stuff with Old Town and the Measters was cut.

3. Some of the Iron Islands was cut and an invasion of the shield islands.

There is a lot.  They likely cut 800 to 1000 pages of material. 

Could it be GRRM wasn't reading it to them fast enough? It has to be his fault.