Tell us what you really think, Marnin!

[esquirecomics]

Like I said though, you really need to have the book in hand to make an assessment like that. Pressing is impossible to detect from a scan, and I don't have as much faith in Marnin's ability to spot pressing. I'd be really surprised if that back cover crease were caused by a press job.

 

Scott, on what basis do you not trust Marnin's ability? Simply because you don't like his views? The guy has been dealing in comics for over 30 years? He has the book in hand. I've had numerous MAJOR dealers tell me that pressing can be detected 50%-75% (and some think higher) of the time with the book in hand.

 

That's a new one to me, and I can't understand at all how Marnin thinks that a press job caused that crease.

 

Why don't you ask him? I'm sure he'll respond with his opinion.

[AlexH]

I would say someone sat on it.

 

So are you saying that it looks like a bad press job? Sorry, but restoration et al is not my specialty.

[Red Hook]

No I was just joking. I would say your book is a very nice, unrestored book.

 

 

Judging from the scan alone.

 

 

If you want my opinion.

[Ze-man]

How am I a shill? A shill is somebody pretending to be somebody else! I am not pretending to be anybody but myself. If someone was to ask then you might be surprised at the response.

 

Ok being the insufficiently_thoughtful_person that I am... I will ask... who the f are you then?

[Foolkiller]

Are you Mushroom?

[FFB]

Why would anybody bother with dignifying an obvious shill by engaging in a flame war with them? I thought that was an honor reserved for legitimate posters.

My thoughts exactly.

[FFB]

I have no problem with Marnin's pricing either. I just wish he would disclose pressing in a less inflammatory way so that people are not told that pressing is evil. Pressing isn't evil. Some people care whether a book has been pressed and others don't. Selling books with undisclosed pressing is the problem for people who care about it.

 

How can we agree when I said neither of those things?

 

I was agreeing, in general, with your statements above.

 

The rest was mine. It was funny. Where's your sense of humor? What are you some corporate lawyer or something?

 

 

 

 

Finished reading through the Sotheby's 1991 catalog yet? Buy any others from ebay yet?

[Ze-man]

Scott, wanted to reply to a few of your points, and was not sure how to re quote all the quotes used in previous posts.Sorry for the messy post.

My new comments are obviously bolded.

 

Ze-

 

 

 

Waviness is the type of thing flat pressing cannot remove, I think only cover removal and pressing out each page individually would revert the book to a flat state.

Actually, Kenny, that isn't true. Those waves can be eliminated or at least greatly reduced without taking the book apart. Those are textbook defects that are removable by NDP-style pressing.

Ok.. I might be mis-informed, but if a book is warped, wavy etc, dry mount pressing will not remove the papers fibers tendancy to maintaint the warp present in them.(Is moisture part of the dry mount procedure?)

I thought you HAD to remove a cover, and work on each page seperatly to ensure any lasting results?

 

 

 

it would have been the improper use of excessive humidity and the failure to keep the book under pressure while drying out that caused the waves.

This I had wondered about, even if moisture was not used, just the heat alone can cause warping, and if you do not let it cool/dry with pressure on it then it will indeed get fugly

 

 

 

And about those CBC's I think anytime you see an area that has multiple CBC's, or overhang that aint folded over anymore, .

Pressing in a dry mount press doesn't flatten bent overhang. It only flattens those things that have paper underneath them to give upward resistance.

But very easily done isolated dry flat iron pressing to the affected are on the cover does remove flaws, if you place a thin hard flat backboard( I used tempered micro glass) under the cover , and dry flat iron the overhang...it will become darn near flat as long as no color is broken.

 

 

 

 

As for flat CBCs, I don't think it is fair to say that a flat CBC necessarily means a book was pressed either. Books from that era are printed with very thin cover stock. If you stick a book like that with a CBC on the bottom of a stack for 30-40 years, that crease will flatten out completely. I've seen tons of books (most recently, a B&B #13 I purchased in Chicago last weekend) that have perfectly flat CBCs but that were not pressed. If the crease is very old, it can absolutely flatten out completely without being pressed through unnatural means.

I agree,but I bet you could tell more times then not which was the stored book, and which was pressed if both books were from the same era, and had similar flaws. Pressing a books CBC area tends to flatten it to such a degree that when viewed in person it is almost as if you have to re bend the area even though it is visiblly creased.

 

 

 

Since he isn't selling books with undisclosed pressing, why all the fire and brimstone?

I think it is more just another step towards educating ourselves in what a pressed /restored book is. Happens to be Marnins site in the crosshairs today. I am sure many here are tired of this topic, and some are not.

 

 

 

It's not an evil book, any more than any other restored book is an evil book. They're just worth less than unrestored books when the restoration is disclosed. (Although it remains to be seen whether professionally pressed books sold with disclosure in a blue label slab are worth less.)

Could not agree more, I find Slight A PLOD's to be a great value.

2 tiny dots of color touch on a spine does not a restored book make.( To me at least). Especially if it's a book I would have to pay X amount more for in similar unrestored grade.

 

 

Ze-

[esquirecomics]

Finished reading through the Sotheby's 1991 catalog yet? Buy any others from ebay yet?

 

You kidding!! I read that thing 2x the evening you were kind enough to give it to me! What a treasure to have (second of the books of course!).

 

I haven't yet bought the others, but I definitely will!!!

[FFB]

Like I said though, you really need to have the book in hand to make an assessment like that. Pressing is impossible to detect from a scan, and I don't have as much faith in Marnin's ability to spot pressing. I'd be really surprised if that back cover crease were caused by a press job.

 

Scott, on what basis do you not trust Marnin's ability? Simply because you don't like his views?

 

My basis is because I just read a few statements where he attributes damage to pressing when I do not believe pressing could cause said damage. This leads me to believe that he is talking out of his asss. I also think that he is biased for a reason I will explain below.

 

The guy has been dealing in comics for over 30 years? He has the book in hand.

 

So? I have seen major, long-time dealers be wrong about restoration many times. Just this past weekend I showed a well-known national dealer a book from his wall that had been disassembled, cleaned, and pressed and had to argue with him for 10 minutes to get him to see the obvious -- the staples had been visibly manipulated and the cover had the texture of a cleaned book.

 

Years of experience does not equal skill. It especially does not lend itself to accuracy when the person we're talking about has a well-known axe to grind and is foaming at the mouth to find a few ostensibly pressed books in his inventory to set up as the "sacrificial lambs" so that he can declare the rest of his expensive inventory "press free."

 

Bottom line is that I think Marnin has come up with a clever way to distinguish himself from his rivals on supposed "ethical" grounds, to give collectors solace about the fact that his inventory contains expensive non-CGC books, and to market his raw books as somehow "better" than everyone else's. And I think some of you guys are taking the bait hook, line, and sinker.

 

I've had numerous MAJOR dealers tell me that pressing can be detected 50%-75% (and some think higher) of the time with the book in hand.

 

And if they say it, it must be true? Just because someone says something doesn't mean they're right. After all, I've had MAJOR CGC posters tell me that: (a) pressing is often detectable even when done properly by a professional; (b) professional pressing is detectable from a scan; © spine warping and flat creases are necessarily the result of pressing and no other cause; and (d) that a book-length back cover crease was caused by pressing. I have come to the come to the conclusion that they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

 

That's a new one to me, and I can't understand at all how Marnin thinks that a press job caused that crease.

 

Why don't you ask him? I'm sure he'll respond with his opinion.

 

I will. Or perhaps since he's reading this thread, he could respond here so that I don't have to retype what he writes. We can get the full explanation in his own words.

[Red Hook]

Or you could call him and cut to the chase! You two would probably get along great!

[shrunkenhead]

I could be wrong about this, but wasn't Marnin asked by someone at CGC not to post here anymore? I seem to remember something along those lines back whe Marnin made his official exit from the forum.

 

I've bought two books from Marnin, both pricey (one really pricey). One I later learned to be a consignment book, and one I believe was his. They were both slabs, and for one of them I'm sure I paid more than I would realize in a no-reserve type auction. But I don't think that makes Marnin any different from just about all of the major dealers. He is, after all, a retail outfit. Nothin' wrong with that. He's got great books, often one-of-a-kind type stuff, so if you want that kind of quality, you've got to step up and pay.

 

I will say this much; he was always excellent about returning my phone calls and emails, and always patiently answered any questions I had, even if the questions I had bore no relevance to the books I was looking to buy.

[Batfiend-migration]

Are you Mushroom?

 

Give this man a cigar. I have been duly admonished and will slink into the background. FFB.....I still cannot abide any of your views and comments but I apologise for my offensiveness.

[FFB]

Waviness is the type of thing flat pressing cannot remove, I think only cover removal and pressing out each page individually would revert the book to a flat state.

Actually, Kenny, that isn't true. Those waves can be eliminated or at least greatly reduced without taking the book apart. Those are textbook defects that are removable by NDP-style pressing.

Ok.. I might be mis-informed, but if a book is warped, wavy etc, dry mount pressing will not remove the papers fibers tendancy to maintaint the warp present in them.(Is moisture part of the dry mount procedure?)

I thought you HAD to remove a cover, and work on each page seperatly to ensure any lasting results?

 

Nope. You just have to use controlled humidity to relax the paper fibers.

 

it would have been the improper use of excessive humidity and the failure to keep the book under pressure while drying out that caused the waves.

This I had wondered about, even if moisture was not used, just the heat alone can cause warping, and if you do not let it cool/dry with pressure on it then it will indeed get fugly

 

True, but heat would warp the entire cover, not just the spine.

 

And about those CBC's I think anytime you see an area that has multiple CBC's, or overhang that aint folded over anymore, .

Pressing in a dry mount press doesn't flatten bent overhang. It only flattens those things that have paper underneath them to give upward resistance.

But very easily done isolated dry flat iron pressing to the affected are on the cover does remove flaws, if you place a thin hard flat backboard( I used tempered micro glass) under the cover , and dry flat iron the overhang...it will become darn near flat as long as no color is broken.

 

But what Marnin is saying about this book is that it is a pancaked, dry-mount-press-damaged POS. He's not saying someone hit a corner or some overhang with a tacking iron.

 

 

As for flat CBCs, I don't think it is fair to say that a flat CBC necessarily means a book was pressed either. Books from that era are printed with very thin cover stock. If you stick a book like that with a CBC on the bottom of a stack for 30-40 years, that crease will flatten out completely. I've seen tons of books (most recently, a B&B #13 I purchased in Chicago last weekend) that have perfectly flat CBCs but that were not pressed. If the crease is very old, it can absolutely flatten out completely without being pressed through unnatural means.

I agree,but I bet you could tell more times then not which was the stored book, and which was pressed if both books were from the same era, and had similar flaws. Pressing a books CBC area tends to flatten it to such a degree that when viewed in person it is almost as if you have to re bend the area even though it is visiblly creased.

 

That is exactly how my B&B#13 looks.

 

I'm not saying that an unnaturally flat book with lots of CBCs is not evidence of pressing -- I'm saying that one or two flat creases isn't conclusive or even particularly damning evidence of pressing.

 

Since he isn't selling books with undisclosed pressing, why all the fire and brimstone?

I think it is more just another step towards educating ourselves in what a pressed /restored book is. Happens to be Marnins site in the crosshairs today. I am sure many here are tired of this topic, and some are not.

 

I don't mean fire and brimstone from the people here. I mean from Marnin. He's not just disclosing that a book was "pressed." Just about every time he uses the word PRESSED!! it is followed by exclamation points, along with a scathing editorial about how evil all the pressers are. Why does he need to have that in an item description for a book where he is disclosing the pressing? There's no non-disclosure happening, so there's no need to spend a paragraph in each item description talking about how evil the non-pressers are, is there? Unless there's another reason to do that?

 

It's not an evil book, any more than any other restored book is an evil book. They're just worth less than unrestored books when the restoration is disclosed. (Although it remains to be seen whether professionally pressed books sold with disclosure in a blue label slab are worth less.)

Could not agree more, I find Slight A PLOD's to be a great value.

2 tiny dots of color touch on a spine does not a restored book make.( To me at least). Especially if it's a book I would have to pay X amount more for in similar unrestored grade.

Ze-

 

True, but even Moderate and Extensively restored books are great values if the work is done professionally and well. If I really want a nice, presentable copy of Detective Comics #1 but will never be able to afford the $70,000+ that an unrestored Fine condition copy would command, doesn't $10,000 for a restored Fine copy look pretty good to me? And why should I never get to own a nice presentable copy of Detective #1? Just because some other people decided restored books are evil?

 

They're not evil. They're just less valuable. But not valueless.

[FFB]

Finished reading through the Sotheby's 1991 catalog yet? Buy any others from ebay yet?

 

You kidding!! I read that thing 2x the evening you were kind enough to give it to me! What a treasure to have (second of the books of course!).

 

I haven't yet bought the others, but I definitely will!!!

 

They are ALL killer. Every single one has crazy, nutty, amazing books, original art, and other comic-related stuff you've never seen before.

[FFB]

Are you Mushroom?

 

Give this man a cigar. I have been duly admonished and will slink into the background. FFB.....I still cannot abide any of your views and comments but I apologise for my offensiveness.

 

Maybe you should see a shrink about this? It isn't normal. Everyone ELSE loves me.

[Foolkiller]

hey, I think there's room enough for all opinions. Don't know if I would have started right at FFB, but if you have a contrary position, I think it should be heard...

 

no need to shill

 

Are you Mushroom?

 

Give this man a cigar. I have been duly admonished and will slink into the background. FFB.....I still cannot abide any of your views and comments but I apologise for my offensiveness.

[Batfiend-migration]

I am not a shill....

 

Mushroom died as a result of his comic passion being removed from his soul and he will never come back.

 

Batfiend couldn't give a rat's a*r*s*e.

[Foolkiller]

. fair enough.

[Red Hook]

Hmmmm...... me thinks I like this "Bat Fiend"!

 

Scott, I actually do love you man....but could you ratchet it down from like 13 to 12, once in a while? You have to give the opposition a little credit once in a while, otherwise you simply steamroll the debate, and come off as a pompous asss (to those that don't know you as the loveable scuba-diving partyboy we know you as). And that's coming from someone that respects you!