Tell us what you really think, Marnin!

[Red Hook]

I hear you. And I do get it about CGC. I have 100 slabs to prove it.

 

What I'm saying is, it's easy to say that it's all vendetta with Marnin. That's simplistic. Show me someone in this business that doesn't have a grudge.

 

Never said Marnin is a perfect grader...not until we have a dealers only grading competition on the boards....hey, it's all objective. I just like what he's attempting, and I hope more dealers eventually start disclosing pressing when they are aware of it.

 

Pipe dream?

 

Yes. For now.

 

I believe that CGC is a good concept. I believe they do a fairly good job doing what they do. I believe they could do it a lot better, and be more collector-friendly. And open.

[sfilosa]

But you're assuming that Pressing could be detected almost all the time, and that is NOT the CASE.

 

And localized pressing has to be much harder to detect.

 

Regarding Marnin, he's OLD SCHOOL and the time has passed him by. He's got great books on his site (similar to PCE), with prices so out of whack with demand, it laughable. All these books on his site with ZERO bids. Is he selling them, or just showing them off (probably a little of both).

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

Dealers for years have made big bucks on the variance in people's grading tastes and skills...CGC killed that. A book is no longer a NM- to customer A, a VF/NM to customer B, or a VF+ to customer C...with Customer A being the most likely to pay the premium price. It's now just a CGC 9.0...

 

 

....on Tuesday.....or it might be a 9.2 on Thursday....or it might be a 9.4 on Friday if it gets back from being inhouse pressed.

 

Open your eyes.

 

Maybe I'm not being opened minded enough on the issue, that's possible.

 

But whenever a dealer rails against CGC so strongly, it makes me wonder why. For example, Greg White, who after decades in the business either still can't spot restoration or has no problem selling books with undisclosed restoration at premium prices.

 

I like Greg, and talk to him at the local Tampa show whenever he's there....but will I buy another pricey high grade book from the man? Nope. Never.

 

Now, I'm not comparing Marnin to Greg, but will I pay double for one of his raw books because he and others like him want me to believe every comparable copy sitting in a CGC case is suspect and maybe has been pressed without my knowledge? Nope...not likely.

[blazingbob]

For what my opinions worth I am not really sure what point is being made on Marnin's pricing of his raw books.

 

To me it appears that the pricing of the books reflects that they have already been pressed and in a CGC holder.

 

I understand having the scans on file in case somebody does press them but it's as if he wants to punish or detract the "pressers" from buying the book. But by doing this he punishs the raw collector who may want to buy a really nice copy. He has stated to me that you can bid 65% of the ask price but does that mean the bid will be accepted?

[nearmint]

But whenever a dealer rails against CGC so strongly, it makes me wonder why. For example, Greg White, who after decades in the business either still can't spot restoration or has no problem selling books with undisclosed restoration at premium prices.

 

Just to be clear about Greg White, he told me that a book was unrestored, and went on to say that Mark Wilson had looked at the book that morning(this was in SD years ago), and verified that it was unrestored.

 

I bought the book, sent it to CGC, and got a PLOD. I emailed Mark Wilson, and he said that he'd told Greg the exact opposite, that the book WAS restored.

 

Greg bold-faced lied to me, then refused a refund. Then he rails against CGC month after month in his CBM market reports. What an incredible hypocrite.

 

No mistake about it. The man is satan.

[blazingbob]

I thought Greg was the most "depressing" Market report writer in the OPG. I didn't know he was also Satan

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

But whenever a dealer rails against CGC so strongly, it makes me wonder why. For example, Greg White, who after decades in the business either still can't spot restoration or has no problem selling books with undisclosed restoration at premium prices.

 

Just to be clear about Greg White, he told me that a book was unrestored, and went on to say that Mark Wilson had looked at the book that morning(this was in SD years ago), and verified that it was unrestored.

 

I bought the book, sent it to CGC, and got a PLOD. I emailed Mark Wilson, and he said that he'd told Greg the exact opposite, that the book WAS restored.

 

Greg bold-faced lied to me, then refused a refund. Then he rails against CGC month after month in his CBM market reports. What an incredible hypocrite.

 

No mistake about it. The man is satan.

 

I remember your story, and I have one of my own..one that I would prefer not to recount because of the aggrevation. The short of it is that I have a nice looking high grade book bought from Mr White sitting in my closet with a PLOD label.

[Ze-man]

 

To me it appears that the pricing of the books reflects that they have already been pressed and in a CGC holder.

 

I understand having the scans on file in case somebody does press them but it's as if he wants to punish or detract the "pressers" from buying the book. But by doing this he punishs the raw collector who may want to buy a really nice copy. He has stated to me that you can bid 65% of the ask price but does that mean the bid will be accepted?

 

I gotta agree with ya o blazing one. Didn't we have a thread awhile ago about dealers wanting CGC realized prices even though the books were still RAW, but for whatever reason did not want to slab the books themselves...in otherwords.. wanting their cake and eating it too?( or wanting a piece of the CGC cake without paying the price of admission?..or something like that)

 

Sadly even 65% of his BIN is probably 100% of what the book is actually worth.

 

 

Ze-

[supapimp]

 

what happened to mushroom? i must've missed that one.

and on that note and in the finest tradition of the drama queen I bid you and the boards a farewell.

 

Thanks. I missed this too. I rarely read the Bronze section.

 

Anyway, come back Mush, we miss ya.

 

thanks for the 411 casey!

[namisgr]

dealers wanting CGC realized prices even though the books were still RAW, but for whatever reason did not want to slab the books themselves...in otherwords.. wanting their cake and eating it too?( or wanting a piece of the CGC cake without paying the price of admission?..or something like that)

 

Sadly even 65% of his BIN is probably 100% of what the book is actually worth.

 

Ze-

 

For purposes of discussion, consider the flip-side, for a minute: why should raw books from pedigree collections be sold for alot less than they would command if they were in plastic capsules? Is there magic pixie dust in the capsule? There are collectors who feel a gorgeous raw book with extraordinary color preservation but a tiny corner fuzzing (the kind of structural defect that may draw the book down to a 9.2 if it were encapsulated) is more desirable (ie, they are willing to pay more for it) than an encapsulated copy with a 9.4 label but with defects of the kind that CGC gives virtually no weight to, like cover yellowing, poor staple placement, or a miswrapped cover. The bottom line for me is that while I am happy to have CGC in the hobby, I don't believe they should be the be-all and end-all of the marketplace, and I enjoy having alternatives to encapsulated books graded by the CGC standards that may not be completely in line with the characteristics most desirable to me.

 

As to dealer prices: frankly, it is their business. Don't buy the book if you can't get the price you want, but at the same time, it doesn't seem right for people to tell a seller what he should be charging for his inventory. After all, only the seller knows how much cash flow he needs to generate, how much he has invested in the book, how much he may want to part with or continue to own the book, etc.

[FFB]

dealers wanting CGC realized prices even though the books were still RAW, but for whatever reason did not want to slab the books themselves...in otherwords.. wanting their cake and eating it too?( or wanting a piece of the CGC cake without paying the price of admission?..or something like that)

 

Sadly even 65% of his BIN is probably 100% of what the book is actually worth.

 

Ze-

 

For purposes of discussion, consider the flip-side, for a minute: why should raw books from pedigree collections be sold for alot less than they would command if they were in plastic capsules? Is there magic pixie dust in the capsule? There are collectors who feel a gorgeous raw book with extraordinary color preservation but a tiny corner fuzzing (the kind of structural defect that may draw the book down to a 9.2 if it were encapsulated) is more desirable (ie, they are willing to pay more for it) than an encapsulated copy with a 9.4 label but with defects of the kind that CGC gives virtually no weight to, like cover yellowing, poor staple placement, or a miswrapped cover. The bottom line for me is that while I am happy to have CGC in the hobby, I don't believe they should be the be-all and end-all of the marketplace, and I enjoy having alternatives to encapsulated books graded by the CGC standards that may not be completely in line with the characteristics most desirable to me.

 

As to dealer prices: frankly, it is their business. Don't buy the book if you can't get the price you want, but at the same time, it doesn't seem right for people to tell a seller what he should be charging for his inventory. After all, only the seller knows how much cash flow he needs to generate, how much he has invested in the book, how much he may want to part with or continue to own the book, etc.

 

Amen, Bob. On all counts.

[Red Hook]

I have to agree with that also. It's the dealers right to ask whatever he wants. Until you've actually gone in and negotiated with a dealer and had a feeling for how flexible his prices are, it's impossible to make a definitive statement about them.

[sfilosa]

As to dealer prices: frankly, it is their business. Don't buy the book if you can't get the price you want, but at the same time, it doesn't seem right for people to tell a seller what he should be charging for his inventory. After all, only the seller knows how much cash flow he needs to generate, how much he has invested in the book, how much he may want to part with or continue to own the book, etc.

 

The problem I have with his pricing is that he makes a stink about how much more PURE his books are, and how tight his grading is.

 

Here's an example of tight grading..... (ignore the price as you probably could get it for 35% less).

 

HOS #9

 

If he would price certain books at even slightly above average market prices, I would gladly spend $10K on his books (CGC'd and Raw).

[supapimp]

re: HOS 9 sorry marnin but that's no way in hell a VF+ 8.5. maybe danny boy with his shoddy grading would grade that an 8.5 after he colour touches and trims the book.

[skybolt]

re: HOS 9 sorry marnin but that's no way in hell a VF+ 8.5. maybe danny boy with his shoddy grading would grade that an 8.5 after he colour touches and trims the book.

 

I'd say 7.0 or 7.5 tops.

[october]

re: HOS 9 sorry marnin but that's no way in hell a VF+ 8.5. maybe danny boy with his shoddy grading would grade that an 8.5 after he colour touches and trims the book.

 

I'd say 7.0 or 7.5 tops.

 

Even that's being somewhat generous, as the spine has pretty significant wear. I would put it at 6.5. There's not much excuse for a dealer having that at 8.5. I wouldn't expect that from most eBay newbies.

[sfilosa]

For purposes of discussion, consider the flip-side, for a minute: why should raw books from pedigree collections be sold for alot less than they would command if they were in plastic capsules? Is there magic pixie dust in the capsule? There are collectors who feel a gorgeous raw book with extraordinary color preservation but a tiny corner fuzzing (the kind of structural defect that may draw the book down to a 9.2 if it were encapsulated) is more desirable (ie, they are willing to pay more for it) than an encapsulated copy with a 9.4 label but with defects of the kind that CGC gives virtually no weight to, like cover yellowing, poor staple placement, or a miswrapped cover.

 

BTW Bob, that is an excellent point!!!!!!

 

That's one reason I like to buy from Heritage, because while I admit I can't see the interior of the book, I can definitely see enough to know if I HATE, LIKE or LOVE the Eye Appeal regardless of the grade CGC gave it.

 

Once again, very well said!!!!

[tth2]

For purposes of discussion, consider the flip-side, for a minute: why should raw books from pedigree collections be sold for alot less than they would command if they were in plastic capsules? Is there magic pixie dust in the capsule? There are collectors who feel a gorgeous raw book with extraordinary color preservation but a tiny corner fuzzing (the kind of structural defect that may draw the book down to a 9.2 if it were encapsulated) is more desirable (ie, they are willing to pay more for it) than an encapsulated copy with a 9.4 label but with defects of the kind that CGC gives virtually no weight to, like cover yellowing, poor staple placement, or a miswrapped cover. The bottom line for me is that while I am happy to have CGC in the hobby, I don't believe they should be the be-all and end-all of the marketplace, and I enjoy having alternatives to encapsulated books graded by the CGC standards that may not be completely in line with the characteristics most desirable to me.

Bob, it all depends whether liquidity of your purchase is important. If not, then it's no problem. In fact, in an ideal world, if you ever decided to sell it, you'd have the time, connections and motivation to find other collectors who would be willing to pay the same price or more for that raw book.

 

However, I do value liquidity, even though I have no intention of selling the vast majority of my purchases. And this being the real world, if I needed or wanted to sell a book, I have no time and no connections to find a purchaser in the manner described above. Which means that if I want to sell, then in order to maximize the potential audience and achieve the highest price, I need to get it slabbed because for better or worse CGC has achieved better market acceptance than any other service or any individual dealer out there.

[Aces]

As to dealer prices: frankly, it is their business. Don't buy the book if you can't get the price you want, but at the same time, it doesn't seem right for people to tell a seller what he should be charging for his inventory. After all, only the seller knows how much cash flow he needs to generate, how much he has invested in the book, how much he may want to part with or continue to own the book, etc.

 

The problem I have with his pricing is that he makes a stink about how much more PURE his books are, and how tight his grading is.

 

Here's an example of tight grading..... (ignore the price as you probably could get it for 35% less).

 

HOS #9

 

If he would price certain books at even slightly above average market prices, I would gladly spend $10K on his books (CGC'd and Raw).

 

6.5/7.0

 

Now I'm not trying to be funny, but does the top edge of that HOS 9 look funny to anyone else?

 

It's the first copy I've ever seen so maybe they are all like that.

[FFB]

For purposes of discussion, consider the flip-side, for a minute: why should raw books from pedigree collections be sold for alot less than they would command if they were in plastic capsules? Is there magic pixie dust in the capsule? There are collectors who feel a gorgeous raw book with extraordinary color preservation but a tiny corner fuzzing (the kind of structural defect that may draw the book down to a 9.2 if it were encapsulated) is more desirable (ie, they are willing to pay more for it) than an encapsulated copy with a 9.4 label but with defects of the kind that CGC gives virtually no weight to, like cover yellowing, poor staple placement, or a miswrapped cover. The bottom line for me is that while I am happy to have CGC in the hobby, I don't believe they should be the be-all and end-all of the marketplace, and I enjoy having alternatives to encapsulated books graded by the CGC standards that may not be completely in line with the characteristics most desirable to me.

Bob, it all depends whether liquidity of your purchase is important. If not, then it's no problem. In fact, in an ideal world, if you ever decided to sell it, you'd have the time, connections and motivation to find other collectors who would be willing to pay the same price or more for that raw book.

 

However, I do value liquidity, even though I have no intention of selling the vast majority of my purchases. And this being the real world, if I needed or wanted to sell a book, I have no time and no connections to find a purchaser in the manner described above. Which means that if I want to sell, then in order to maximize the potential audience and achieve the highest price, I need to get it slabbed because for better or worse CGC has achieved better market acceptance than any other service or any individual dealer out there.

 

Having just sold a portion of my collection, I see your point here, Tim. Selling raw books (even a chunk of really nice ones) is not nearly as easy as selling slabbed books and you just don't get as much for them even when selling in person.

 

But when buying books for my permanent collection, liquidity always took a back seat to my wanting to buy books that had qualities that I liked, and avoiding books that had qualities I didn't. There were quite a few high grade books in slabs that I avoided along the way because of things like QP issues and the like (damn you and your QP-cultish ways Beyonder!!! ), and I was happier with those books in my collection than I would have been with a book graded by CGC at the next higher structural level but with a badly miswrapped cover. But, as you said, when it was time to sell, my decision to buy raw (and not to invest the time and money in slabbing them all before resale) impacted the amount I was able to realize from the sale.

 

That aside, however, I still think Marnin has a right to grade his books however he thinks appropriate as long as he believes he is grading fairly, and can price his books at whatever he thinks appropriate, whether fairly priced or not. They're his books -- he has a right to price them wherever he wants and has no obligation to follow the guide or GPA or anything other than his desire to get a specific price for a given book. And it's the buyer's right to buy or not to buy. And hey, if Marnin priced everything to sell right away, he wouldn't have such a person_without_enough_empathyin' inventory, now, would he?