Real Stan Lee, but fake Kirby? 0

[Spidey 62]

This was posted on a Facebook group I visit.  The Stan Lee is witnessed, but does that Jack Kirby look less than legit?  Was he around for the milestone books? 

[Kon_Jelly]

27 minutes ago, Spidey 62 said:

This was posted on a Facebook group I visit.  The Stan Lee is witnessed, but does that Jack Kirby look less than legit?  Was he around for the milestone books? 

He died a few years after the book came out, so it is possible that it's his signature. No clue if it actually is, though. 

[Spidey 62]

4 minutes ago, Volcano1991 said:

The label does not say it was signed by Kirby. Should be a Green/Yellow label.

You're right, Kirby died before there was a CGC.

My question is more about the look of the Kirby sig.  I am by no means an autograph expert, but it looks fishy.  I did see that the Kirby is listed as "written on cover" and so not a witnessed sig. 

[JollyComics]

23 minutes ago, Spidey 62 said:

My question is more about the look of the Kirby sig.  I am by no means an autograph expert, but it looks fishy.  I did see that the Kirby is listed as "written on cover" and so not a witnessed sig. 

It's Quality Control. They should have given Green/Yellow Label.   I have seen few of them.

[eee91]

Longwinded explanation ahoy-

Back in the early 90's right before he passed away, Jack Kirby signed books for "Dynamic Forces" - Uncanny X-Men #304 (750 copies), Marvel Milestone X-Men #1 (2000 copies), Marvel Milestone Edition Fantastic Four #1 (supposedly 1961 copies, but the higher numbers have never been seen for sale). They came with a certificate of authenticity from Dynamic Forces. [Visual evidence suggests Kirby didn't sign these and that they were actually ghost-signed by his wife, Roz Kirby - but that's another whole topic altogether.]

These Kirby-signed books were not witnessed by CGC, as CGC didn't exist for years after Kirby's passing.

However, CGC was around to witness many Stan Lee signings. So what some people did was get their Kirby Dynamic Forces books signed and witnessed by Stan Lee. These books typically got a combo yellow/green label. Examples here-

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=39669&GSub=2358

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=44978&GSub=3978

So as far as CGC is concerned, the witnessed Stan Lee sig gets a yellow label - the unwitnessed Kirby sig is IGNORED for grading purposes and thus gets a green label. 

But in the example you posted above, it appears whoever got it slabbed requested that CGC treat the unwitnessed Kirby signature as a DEFECT. That's why instead of a green label, the book got marked down harshly and is graded as a 6.5. Examples here-

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=13155&GSub=1328

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=33356&GSub=2743

A little confusing, yes, but the label says that the Kirby is not witnessed. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by eee91

[shadroch]

A name written on the cover, no matter if it is Eddie Ryan or Jack KIrby doesnt mean a green label. It usually does but you can choose to count the name as a defect.

Perhaps this would be an 8.0 in a green label, but is a 6.0 blue.

The number 200/1961 seem to indicate it was part of a large group of books. Maybe something sold on QVC or the like. Shouldnt be hard to track down if someone wanted to.

 

[James J Johnson]

7 hours ago, eee91 said:

Longwinded explanation ahoy-

Back in the early 90's right before he passed away, Jack Kirby signed books for "Dynamic Forces" - Uncanny X-Men #304 (750 copies), Marvel Milestone X-Men #1 (2000 copies), Marvel Milestone Edition Fantastic Four #1 (supposedly 1961 copies, but the higher numbers have never been seen for sale). They came with a certificate of authenticity from Dynamic Forces. [Visual evidence suggests Kirby didn't sign these and that they were actually ghost-signed by his wife, Roz Kirby - but that's another whole topic altogether.]

These Kirby-signed books were not witnessed by CGC, as CGC didn't exist for years after Kirby's passing.

However, CGC was around to witness many Stan Lee signings. So what some people did was get their Kirby Dynamic Forces books signed and witnessed by Stan Lee. These books typically got a combo yellow/green label. Examples here-

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=39669&GSub=2358

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=44978&GSub=3978

So as far as CGC is concerned, the witnessed Stan Lee sig gets a yellow label - the unwitnessed Kirby sig is IGNORED for grading purposes and thus gets a green label. 

But in the example you posted above, it appears whoever got it slabbed requested that CGC treat the unwitnessed Kirby signature as a DEFECT. That's why instead of a green label, the book got marked down harshly and is graded as a 6.5. Examples here-

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=13155&GSub=1328

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=33356&GSub=2743

A little confusing, yes, but the label says that the Kirby is not witnessed. 

Great explanation. Saves me having to deliver any more than the punch line and most important element of the "Jack Kirby" signature on this item. It's not Jack. Its Roz's secretarial/proxy Jack Kirby signature. .

Edited February 17, 2020 by James J Johnson

[Domo Arigato]

9 hours ago, eee91 said:

Back in the early 90's right before he passed away, Jack Kirby signed books for "Dynamic Forces" - Uncanny X-Men #304 (750 copies), Marvel Milestone X-Men #1 (2000 copies), Marvel Milestone Edition Fantastic Four #1 (supposedly 1961 copies, but the higher numbers have never been seen for sale). They came with a certificate of authenticity from Dynamic Forces. [Visual evidence suggests Kirby didn't sign these and that they were actually ghost-signed by his wife, Roz Kirby - but that's another whole topic altogether.]

 

2 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

Great explanation. Saves me having to deliver any more than the punch line and most important element of the "Jack Kirby" signature on this item. It's not Jack. Its Roz's secretarial/proxy Jack Kirby signature. .

 

So, in other words.....those Dynamic Forces signed editions with the Certificate of Authenticity meant exactly dick squat. 

 

 

[Turtle]

16 hours ago, shadroch said:

A name written on the cover, no matter if it is Eddie Ryan or Jack KIrby doesnt mean a green label. It usually does but you can choose to count the name as a defect.

Perhaps this would be an 8.0 in a green label, but is a 6.0 blue.

The number 200/1961 seem to indicate it was part of a large group of books. Maybe something sold on QVC or the like. Shouldnt be hard to track down if someone wanted to.

 

+1 on this.  It may be a lesser known practice, but this is how it works.  I mean, take a look at the book.  If you ignore the signatures, it'd be the nicest 6.0 in history.  It's the Kirby signature that is counted as a defect that's really bringing the grade down, which was done to avoid the Green Stripe. 

[shadroch]

6 hours ago, Domo Arigato said:

 

 

So, in other words.....those Dynamic Forces signed editions with the Certificate of Authenticity meant exactly dick squat. 

I dunno. A book signed by Roz Kirby is pretty cool on its own.

6 hours ago, Domo Arigato said:

 

 

[bobotski]

Assuming that the "CGC Sig Series" did not exist, where would you go to buy reputable signed comic memorabilias? If everyone (and even CGC) says COAs are worthless, then there's really no one to trust in a world without CGC SS.

[RockMyAmadeus]

19 hours ago, eee91 said:

Longwinded explanation ahoy-

Back in the early 90's right before he passed away, Jack Kirby signed books for "Dynamic Forces" - Uncanny X-Men #304 (750 copies), Marvel Milestone X-Men #1 (2000 copies), Marvel Milestone Edition Fantastic Four #1 (supposedly 1961 copies, but the higher numbers have never been seen for sale). They came with a certificate of authenticity from Dynamic Forces. [Visual evidence suggests Kirby didn't sign these and that they were actually ghost-signed by his wife, Roz Kirby - but that's another whole topic altogether.]

These Kirby-signed books were not witnessed by CGC, as CGC didn't exist for years after Kirby's passing.

However, CGC was around to witness many Stan Lee signings. So what some people did was get their Kirby Dynamic Forces books signed and witnessed by Stan Lee. These books typically got a combo yellow/green label. Examples here-

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=39669&GSub=2358

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=44978&GSub=3978

So as far as CGC is concerned, the witnessed Stan Lee sig gets a yellow label - the unwitnessed Kirby sig is IGNORED for grading purposes and thus gets a green label. 

But in the example you posted above, it appears whoever got it slabbed requested that CGC treat the unwitnessed Kirby signature as a DEFECT. That's why instead of a green label, the book got marked down harshly and is graded as a 6.5. Examples here-

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=13155&GSub=1328

https://www.myslabbedcomics.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=33356&GSub=2743

A little confusing, yes, but the label says that the Kirby is not witnessed. 

Excellent!

 

[AndyFish]

The Kirby signature looks legit to me.

[shadroch]

28 minutes ago, bobotski said:

Assuming that the "CGC Sig Series" did not exist, where would you go to buy reputable signed comic memorabilias? If everyone (and even CGC) says COAs are worthless, then there's really no one to trust in a world without CGC SS.

If CGC is correct and all COAs are worthless, wouldn't that include their own? 

[James J Johnson]

17 minutes ago, AndyFish said:

The Kirby signature looks legit to me.

That's because you've seen Roz's secretarial Jack track many times, further reinforced because like many forgers, a forger doesn't always necessarily use an authentic signature for their exemplar! Many times it occurs that a forgery was modeled after a forgery that the forger and those that thought, "that looks good" were not aware of as being a forgery.

Now it is quite possible that Jack did sign some of the 1991-1993/4 Dynamic forces pieces, and whatever other non-Dynamic forces pieces that were dropped off at his home and picked up later on. But IMO, this isn't one of them that Jack signed.  I can give you many reasons why, but that not only would help you and /or others that are in the market for an authentic Kirby signature, it would assist any forgers who stumble across this thread and there are already sellers on ebay whose stores are 95% Lee and Kirby signatures and my going into great detail would serve as an instruction manual for them to amend their errors in their future forgeries, which now are childishly easy to discern.

[kav]

According to Glen Gold, Kirby historian, Jack couldnt even hold a pencil in 1990.
that sig looks way fake to me.

[shadroch]

1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

That's because you've seen Roz's secretarial Jack track many times, further reinforced because like many forgers, a forger doesn't always necessarily use an authentic signature for their exemplar! Many times it occurs that a forgery was modeled after a forgery that the forger and those that thought, "that looks good" were not aware of as being a forgery.

Now it is quite possible that Jack did sign some of the 1991-1993/4 Dynamic forces pieces, and whatever other non-Dynamic forces pieces that were dropped off at his home and picked up later on. But IMO, this isn't one of them that Jack signed.  I can give you many reasons why, but that not only would help you and /or others that are in the market for an authentic Kirby signature, it would assist any forgers who stumble across this thread and there are already sellers on ebay whose stores are 95% Lee and Kirby signatures and my going into great detail would serve as an instruction manual for them to amend their errors in their future forgeries, which now are childishly easy to discern.

It's one thing for a secretarial signature to be done on something given away for free, but what you are suggesting is Jack Kirby and his wife intentionally ripped off his fans. That's fraud, pure and simple, if true.

[kav]

7 minutes ago, shadroch said:

It's one thing for a secretarial signature to be done on something given away for free, but what you are suggesting is Jack Kirby and his wife intentionally ripped off his fans. That's fraud, pure and simple, if true.

Many authors and others do this.

[kav]

Also its a stretch to call it 'ripped off' when the sigs were free.

[James J Johnson]

10 minutes ago, shadroch said:

It's one thing for a secretarial signature to be done on something given away for free, but what you are suggesting is Jack Kirby and his wife intentionally ripped off his fans. That's fraud, pure and simple, if true.

What was a Jack Kirby signature's value in 1991-4? A nice, historical addition, but of little value other than ceremonial at that time. Autograph's on comics and books really had little value in this hobby until (and thank you once again, CGC) the advent of CGC signature series witnessed autographs. At that point, as did the rest of the hobby market values, the autographs gained in value and significance, witnessed or otherwise.