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Real Stan Lee, but fake Kirby?
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Started by Spidey 62,

198 posts in this topic

lordbyroncomics

lordbyroncomics

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 7:08 PM, Prince Namor said:

Sure it did. If Kirby hadn’t done ‘The Fly’ for Archie, then Ditko wouldn’t have recognized the idea and changed Spidey to what it became. 
 

Stan’s story about Kirby drawing too heroic is questionable - when was THAT a bad thing? - Ditko says he pointed out that Kirby’s idea resembled the FLY and boom - Ditko did his thing. 
 

Without Kirby pushing superheroes wherever he went, Ditko wouldn’t have noticed and Stan might’ve had Spidey and his magic ring. 

Assuming Kav is referring to Spider-Man, technically he's not even considering that Spider-Man wouldn't have been published at all if not for the success of the Fantastic Four to begin with. (Likely because Kav doesn't know that)

This Spider-Man thing is one of the most valid points of proof that Stan couldn't have been the generator of concepts and plots, unless you think Ditko is a liar. Because Stan gave Ditko's Jack's plot which involved a kid who becomes Spider-Man and Ditko told him it was similar to The Fly. If Stan had done the plot, wouldn't he know about that?? Why would it change from Jack's plot (confirmed by no less a Stan defender than Jim Shooter, who saw his pages) to what we eventually got?

Oh, and Stan's tall tale of "Jack couldn't draw a nerdy character to save his life, everyone looked so heroic so I gave it to Ditko..." is disproven by this page of a sci-fi story that came out the same month as Hulk #1 in 1963. (Ignore the 'Peter Parker' which someone photoshopped in to magnify the point) 

 

Kirby Nerd 2.jpg

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kav

kav

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 4:08 PM, Prince Namor said:

Sure it did. If Kirby hadn’t done ‘The Fly’ for Archie, then Ditko wouldn’t have recognized the idea and changed Spidey to what it became. 

I mean this kind of logic is a stretch.  "If Jery seigel hadnt done superman there would be no spiderman.  If McCulley hadnt done Zorro there would have been no superman.  If there were no greek myths-".

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kav

kav

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 4:14 PM, wisbyron said:

Spider-Man wouldn't have been published at all if not for the success of the Fantastic Four to begin with. (Likely because Kav doesn't know that)

everybody know that!  lol 

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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Posted

But the point he made is that we KNOW from multiple sources that Kirby’s spider-man idea or Stan’s or whatever, involved a magic ring. 
 

Ditko says he recognized this and told Stan who then gave him the opportunity to rework it. And it was only from the first 5 pages of an unfinished story. 

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shadroch

shadroch

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 5/30/2022 at 3:34 PM, Prince Namor said:

Items Stan Lee has written sell for more than what they would if just Roy Thomas wrote them. 
 

They kept Stan’s name on it as a writer to make more money  

That is unethical and it is fraud. 

 

I suppose you think one author wrote all the Lone Ranger novels? How about the Hardy Boys? Either F.W. Dixon is a vampire or someone else took over for him since he has been knocking them out since the 1920s.  Does anyone think Don Pendleton knocked off almost two hundred Mac Bolan novels in fifteen years? 

Did Hal Foster really draw forty plus years of Prince Valiant?

Did Stan own the Spider-Man strip?  If Roy Thomas wrote it all those years, and if he says he did I believe him, he agreed to be a ghost writer. He got paid for it. It's quite possible that the syndicates wouldn't have published the strip without the Stan Lee byline.

The fact you think ghost writing in the fiction world is bad is laughable.

Edited by shadroch
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Bird

Bird

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 7:45 PM, shadroch said:

F.W. Dixon

I loved The Hardy Boys. I read those bad boys through and through. Then I read Nancy Drew too. They were okay. Then I found out neither series was written by the name on the cover; that was probably my introduction to the ghost writer. I was appalled that a woman was writing The Hardy Boys!!!

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Bird

Bird

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 7:45 PM, shadroch said:

Did Hal Foster really draw forty plus years of Prince Valiant?

I have an Al Capp L'il Abner that Capp mostly drew, or so it is believed and can be argued. Later he did hands and faces only. (I'm the only one who wanted a Capp L'il Abner and not only a Frazetta ghosted Capp.)

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kav

kav

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 4:56 PM, Bird said:

I have an Al Capp L'il Abner that Capp mostly drew, or so it is believed and can be argued. Later he did hands and faces only. (I'm the only one who wanted a Capp L'il Abner and not only a Frazetta ghosted Capp.)

Got any Capps?
@oakman29

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lordbyroncomics

lordbyroncomics

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 7:45 PM, shadroch said:

I suppose you think one author wrote all the Lone Ranger novels? How about the Hardy Boys? Either F.W. Dixon is a vampire or someone else took over for him since he has been knocking them out since the 1920s.  Does anyone think Don Pendleton knocked off almost two hundred Mac Bolan novels in fifteen years? 

Did Hal Foster really draw forty plus years of Prince Valiant?

Did Stan own the Spider-Man strip?  If Roy Thomas wrote it all those years, and if he says he did I believe him, he agreed to be a ghost writer. He got paid for it. It's quite possible that the syndicates wouldn't have published the strip without the Stan Lee byline.

The fact you think ghost writing in the fiction world is bad is laughable.

Yes, I think about the Lone Ranger novels quite frequently actually. So, this news is.... unsettling.

 

In all seriousness, I don't think it's bad whatsoever but I'm glad I made you laugh. You're either missing the point which is quite possible or purposely using cheap lawyer tactics to sidestep and put words in my mouth: I am not only aware of the ghost industry in both novels, pulps, comic strips, etc.-  I am indifferent to them. The Spider-Man comic strip is going to be worthless no matter who writes it.

I shared what I did because it had (wait for it) context to the greater discussion.

You want to be selective to serve your initial faulty statements and accusations. You can't be selective- since you, y'know, care about fairness so much. So let's go look at who is dishonest and unethical since you're so into it.

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lordbyroncomics

lordbyroncomics

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 7:21 PM, kav said:

I mean this kind of logic is a stretch.  "If Jery seigel hadnt done superman there would be no spiderman.  If McCulley hadnt done Zorro there would have been no superman.  If there were no greek myths-".

Kav has anyone told you about the Dunning-Kruger effect yet

 

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kav

kav

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 5:03 PM, wisbyron said:

Kav has anyone told you about the Dunning-Kruger effect yet

 

I imagine youre an expert on that one.
You keep telling me things I already know lol 

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lordbyroncomics

lordbyroncomics

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 8:05 PM, kav said:

I imagine youre an expert on that one.
You keep telling me things I already know lol 

I sincerely apologize for doing that. I guess the number of times you've written "I don't know much about that" or declared you were unaware of other things in comics history in past threads gave me the wrong impression I suppose. Well that and all the wrong stuff you say about said documented history. And all the misspelling of names, etc. I guess I got the wrong idea, carry on!

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kav

kav

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 5:08 PM, wisbyron said:

I sincerely apologize for doing that. I guess the number of times you've written "I don't know much about that" or declared you were unaware of other things in comics history in past threads gave me the wrong impression I suppose. Well that and all the wrong stuff you say about said documented history. And all the misspelling of names, etc. I guess I got the wrong idea, carry on!

this might help

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/507827-a-two-dice-puzzle/page/9/#comment-12342058

 

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kav

kav

Posted
Posted
On 5/30/2022 at 5:11 PM, Namtak said:

Send people to cornfield lounge not the wayer cooler,waxzamatter withya:whatthe:!

If wisbyron asks me if I've ever heard of Neal Adams I'm gonna lose it-

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