GA COMIC BOOK Collecting in the Financial crisis of 2020 3 3

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

Sure there were some great deals like Tect #2- 6.5 at 15K and that was a great copy.

+1

Definitely agree with you that this was a fantastic deal for the buyer who was able to pick up a nicely presenting copy relative to the assigned CGC grade, and for a truly HTF book at a price point to boot which was just under 60% of condition guide.  

Then again, I guess this is an indication that the pre-hero DC market save for a very limited number of select books has been on the cool side for awhile now.  

Similar in view to this book which I have always thought sported an absolutely superb classic cover by Simon & Kirby:  

This book seems to have fallen on hard times recently and this auction was no exception, with this copy going for a bargain basement price of only $4,560 or at a price point of just a shade over 56% of condition guide.  Of course, there's always the theory that it's best to buy books at a huge discount (like anything else) when they are out of favor and hopefully wait for them to come back into vogue again, but then I imagine that really depends upon how patient you are.      

Edited May 1, 2020 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

 I would sell and probably use HA. com  now, if you want to buy at bottom with the most amount of fire power, last December would have been better for selling but that is hindsight.

Mitch;

Although you've been expounding this SELL NOW strategy and BUY BACK LATER at lower prices to board members here, it's really kind of hard for us to take it too seriously in light of the fact that you yourself are not adopting this strategy since it sounds as though you are simply holding onto all of your own personal books.    

[fishbone]

12 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Mitch;

Although you've been expounding this SELL NOW strategy and BUY BACK LATER at lower prices to board members here, it's really kind of hard for us to take it too seriously in light of the fact that you yourself are not adopting this strategy since it sounds as though you are simply holding onto all of your own personal books.    

I think this speaks to the point I was trying to make. To each their own, but for some on here that have a lot of opinions about the hobby - I mean a LOT -- who start their own threads and type and type and type,  you'd think they'd share just a bit of their personal stuff  if they were true collectors. Again, I could be way off base, but just my 2 cents. 

The Dentist has THE best collection apparently, but even though he is not on here, and not sharing, that I can respect. But even with him, we all know what he has, even if he isn't on here posting and sharing. Some others, I don't know, I just think I'd "respect" their opinions more if they were still active today in some way.   

[KCOComics]

2 hours ago, fishbone said:

 Some others, I don't know, I just think I'd "respect" their opinions more if they were still active today in some way.   

I'm not sure I see the correlation between his private collection and his right to have an opinion about the comic book market.  

If you don't like all his typing,  don't read it. 

I don't have nearly the collection of allot of guys on these boards. I've never even seen an Action comics 1 in person.  But I have been around comic books my entire life and activly collecting since I was 18... way before it was cool.  The hobby has gone places I never imagined. Access and how / where you buy have modernized. While my collection may not impress allot of the hardened golden age collectors on these boards, my experiences give me perspective that some may be interested in.  

I could care less about his private collection. He has the right to share what he wants to share. His opinion is backed by experience and perspective that out weigh my own and I think it is short sighted to discount people who don't brag about their collection. 

[Cat-Man_America]

1 hour ago, fishbone said:

I think this speaks to the point I was trying to make. To each their own, but for some on here that have a lot of opinions about the hobby - I mean a LOT -- who start their own threads and type and type and type,  you'd think they'd share just a bit of their personal stuff  if they were true collectors. Again, I could be way off base, but just my 2 cents. 

The Dentist has THE best collection apparently, but even though he is not on here, and not sharing, that I can respect. But even with him, we all know what he has, even if he isn't on here posting and sharing. Some others, I don't know, I just think I'd "respect" their opinions more if they were still active today in some way.   

It’s a valid point as far as it goes, but we shouldn’t expect any player with a good track record of wins to lay all his cards on the table before other players ante up.   Does Mitch have a pat hand?  I have no idea.  In the past, I’d say yes, but I do know Mitch has a valuable collection because I’ve seen part of it in person even though I’ve never browsed his comics nor pushed for evidence.  That may sound confusing as in how can things be both ways, but just remember there are more areas of genre collecting than just comics.  

This hobby extends beyond comics.  Does Mitch still have that famous Action #1 that caught the public’s attention? Who knows, maybe he upgraded it or moved on, selling it and leveraging the profit for other collectibles? Maybe he’ll post a scan of his collection one day, maybe not.  And it doesn’t really matter.  The most relevant fact here is that he did buy it and his purchase timing wise increased national attention on comic values exponentially.  That legacy is real.  Yes, I’d love to see more of his collection here as it would bolster the credibility of his investment chops, but that’s entirely up to him.

Do I think Mitch is wrong on some things? Absolutely, but unlike the cliche of a broken watch being right twice a day, Mitch is more like a durable sundial which has predictable accuracy except on rainy days and Forget about daylight savings, that ain’t happening.  By way of example, he’s undoubtably right about how investors should make wise buying/selling choices during the coronavirus pandemic, but his rationale might leave you thinking the hobby is only thriving because of flippers, which is anathema to the philosophy of true collecting.  

I’d go one step further and say for those just buying to crack-out, press and resell for a quick profit, this is definitely the wrong time to roll that dice.  The market is just too unpredictable right now.  However, if you’re looking for deals and have the cash available to invest, this may be the best time to hunt those grail books you’ve wanted for years and negotiate directly with owners.  As for crack out and press auction players, in this hobby there’ll always be gamesmanship and flippers, but I’m dubious of investment strategies better suited to the Waffle House.

As for HA and CC (if their new software is easy/useful enough to satisfy buyers and sellers) ...and what was that other one, oh yeah, CLink... this should be a great time for disciplined buyers to ride the BID buttons and strategically procure books that aren’t bidding up to expectations with the idea of holding for longer term investment.  That applies especially to those deeper pocketed true collectors seeking grail books that rarely come up. In chaotic times, books hidden away in collections come to the market that wouldn’t otherwise be offered for sale.

Final thoughts on this.  When the pandemic is finally over ...and it will be eventually, probably next year around this time if there’s a viable vaccine on the market... things will gradually pick back up in collector’s markets across the board.  My best guess for total normality in the marketplace would be in the fall or winter of 2021.  Of course a lot depends on the auction cycle (bi-monthly or quarterly), collector comfort with the stability of the comic market and how robust the physical health and fiscal economic health of the country/world is around that time.

Another too-much-coffee day. 

[fishbone]

14 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

It’s a valid point as far as it goes, but we shouldn’t expect any player with a good track record of wins to lay all his cards on the table before other players ante up.   Does Mitch have a pat hand?  I have no idea.  In the past, I’d say yes, but I do know Mitch has a valuable collection because I’ve seen part of it in person even though I’ve never browsed his comics nor pushed for evidence.  That may sound confusing as in how can things be both ways, but just remember there are more areas of genre collecting than just comics.  

This hobby extends beyond comics.  Does Mitch still have that famous Action #1 that caught the public’s attention? Who knows, maybe he upgraded it or moved on, selling it and leveraging the profit for other collectibles? Maybe he’ll post a scan of his collection one day, maybe not.  And it doesn’t really matter.  The most relevant fact here is that he did buy it and his purchase timing wise increased national attention on comic values exponentially.  That legacy is real.  Yes, I’d love to see more of his collection here as it would bolster the credibility of his investment chops, but that’s entirely up to him.

Do I think Mitch is wrong on some things? Absolutely, but unlike the cliche of a broken watch being right twice a day, Mitch is more like a durable sundial which has predictable accuracy except on rainy days and Forget about daylight savings, that ain’t happening.  By way of example, he’s undoubtably right about how investors should make wise buying/selling choices during the coronavirus pandemic, but his rationale might leave you thinking the hobby is only thriving because of flippers, which is anathema to the philosophy of true collecting.  

I’d go one step further and say for those just buying to crack-out, press and resell for a quick profit, this is definitely the wrong time to roll that dice.  The market is just too unpredictable right now.  However, if you’re looking for deals and have the cash available to invest, this may be the best time to hunt those grail books you’ve wanted for years and negotiate directly with owners.  As for crack out and press auction players, in this hobby there’ll always be gamesmanship and flippers, but I’m dubious of investment strategies better suited to the Waffle House.

As for HA and CC (if their new software is easy/useful enough to satisfy buyers and sellers) ...and what was that other one, oh yeah, CLink... this should be a great time for disciplined buyers to ride the BID buttons and strategically procure books that aren’t bidding up to expectations with the idea of holding for longer term investment.  That applies especially to those deeper pocketed true collectors seeking grail books that rarely come up. In chaotic times, books hidden away in collections come to the market that wouldn’t otherwise be offered for sale.

Final thoughts on this.  When the pandemic is finally over ...and it will be eventually, probably next year around this time if there’s a viable vaccine on the market... things will gradually pick back up in collector’s markets across the board.  My best guess for total normality in the marketplace would be in the fall or winter of 2021.  Of course a lot depends on the auction cycle (bi-monthly or quarterly), collector comfort with the stability of the comic market and how robust the physical health and fiscal economic health of the country/world is around that time.

Another too-much-coffee day. 

well, keep drinking the java then   Another great post, thank you for your (very much respected) opinion. And like I said, I certainly am not anywhere near a major player to say what one should do on here or not, it's a free chat board for anyone to post s**t within reason, but I have just always been very curious about the Man who "Manned Up" initially in the 70's, seemed to have no problem with all the press back then , but now nothing mentioned or shown here of anything current . If I'm being a bit of an a-hole here about that, and I probably am, then my bad I'm sorry.  Peace all you geeks, and stay safe 

[Mmehdy]

19 hours ago, bluechip said:

Sometimes I agree with you but whenever you predict ups or downs you always say that buying "quality" is the way to go and then it becomes clear that you largely define quality as something like a "Detective comics #2" and lack-of-quality as a key book that virtually everybody in the world would likely recognize, but has been 'ruined' by a tear seal.   If you are talking only about the most insider, insular esoteric-loving-"restoration"-hating old school collectors, than you may be right that. 

The hobby is made up of many other types of people.    But your prognostications always presume the only viability and security in the hobby are, and will always remain, with the group that values the specific and narrow things you like (and have).  Sales up?  Sales down?  Market up?  Market own?   Virus?  Boom times?   Whatever is going, Mitch says you can't go wrong buying Barks paintings and high grade 'unrestored' golden age, even if it's a title (and characters) virtually known by 99.9% of people.    

I would be more on board with you if you were emphasizing caution in accumulating stacks of bronze age book, or forbearance in amassing warehouses of "highest graded" slabs of modern sketch cover dealer variants,   Then you're talking about what's actually rare and what's not, and you're talking about individual price points that mean the speculators include a higher number of people at the lower end of disposable income.  

But aside from those folk there are not just old schoolers like yourself; there also are people whose interests in comics and art starts not with comic books and then branches into the specific characters.  It starts (and sometimes ends) with the characters they have come to know and love through other media.  And they want a comic (or art) and are willing to pay for it because it's a cool (and sometimes rare) piece of that character's history/formation, etc.

If I'm wrong, then one of your favorite books, Cap 1, has not risen in value because the character became much more widely known and beloved in recent years, but because a lot of old school Timely collectors have filled the holes in their collections of "Daring Mystery" and are now looking for the next Timely to collect.  

 

Great post and valid points.

Here are my counterpoints:

1-Quality is determined by a number of factors including rarity, condition, and the very comic book itself. As as GA and SA comic book collector, my opinion is weighted by my childhood experiences as well as my general appreciation of history especially 1938-1945. you do not have to be any type of 'old time tear sealing collector" to demand quality unrestored, untouched comic books as long as you are willing to pay the price. Back in the early 70's when restoration was just beginning and become a major issue, myself and a number of "old school" collectors which were about half that said no...no to greed and promise of riches by doing a "face Job " on you key GA/SA books...just look at the early restorer's adds, CBG and early Overstreet  price guides..l and a handful  of other true comic book collectors knew deep down inside that it was not right to make something that it is not..just to make profit. It is because of our dedication that we have CGC in existence today to help determine what is real and what is not in terms of "fixing" or restoring..a easier way to put. I will never restore, press, or alter for a higher grade any GA/SA comic book no matter how much profit is to be made and you had better thank the others who agreed with me, otherwise every GA/SA book would have undergone a steroid upgrade. Our GA/SA comic book world would not be as fun or discoverable  with a bunch of juiced up GA/SA books getting upgraded every 5 years as the plastic surgery gets better and better. Quality might be the wrong word...how about  "Real".it is what is and thank god the GA/SA comic book market prices have recognized that there is a difference...a Big one.

 2-There is nothing narrow about my advice, it is universal to both GA/SA, Key, semi Key, or Action #275.. Apparently you have not been reading my most recent posts in Ha about how I thought the large Carl Barks painting in  in the last Ha auction  reserve price was way too high..it sold at reserve to my surprise. The only book I have raved about since I came on the boards in 2011 was Cap 1 and I still think it is a good today. If you have the opportunity to able to purchase a Cap#1 especially unrestored do not let that pass by you in 2020 and beyond. You are confused, I have not told any collector to buy any specific titles and  nobody is ever going to be 100% spot on. My advice both on the buying and selling is simple, buy what you want, what you need but with the abilty to keep that material for 5 years thru unknown times and still be able to maintain your life style prior to the virus. Simple, safe and sane.Cap# 1 value has held and it is not gonna go up every single year, month or day...overtime it will trend upwards. GA is rarer than SA which is rarer than Bronze and that that is the generic structure of our comic book world and cannot be changed. prices should follow accordingly.

3-you should be on board with me on my previous comments on mid range X-Men going for 10x guide as being potentially  dangerous with 6/10/15 copies available in the same grade and I agree with you buying 50 variant covers of the same 2019 comic book is going turn to be a loser down the road.

4-Tough advice for tough times, that is what is needed here and together with all of our comments, thoughts, and insight we will make our GA/AS comic book world safer, smarter and closer.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Mmehdy

[bluechip]

1 hour ago, Mmehdy said:

Great post and valid points.

Here are my counterpoints:

1-Quality is determined by a number of factors including rarity, condition, and the very comic book itself. As as GA and SA comic book collector, my opinion is weighted by my childhood experiences as well as my general appreciation of history especially 1938-1945. you do not have to be any type of 'old time tear sealing collector" to demand quality unrestored, untouched comic books as long as you are willing to pay the price. Back in the early 70's when restoration was just beginning and become a major issue, myself and a number of "old school" collectors which were about half that said no...no to greed and promise of riches by doing a "face Job " on you key GA/SA books...just look at the early restorer's adds, CBG and early Overstreet  price guides..l and a handful  of other true comic book collectors knew deep down inside that it was not right to make something that it is not..just to make profit. It is because of our dedication that we have CGC in existence today to help determine what is real and what is not in terms of "fixing" or restoring..a easier way to put. I will never restore, press, or alter for a higher grade any GA/SA comic book no matter how much profit is to be made and you had better thank the others who agreed with me, otherwise every GA/SA book would have undergone a steroid upgrade. Our GA/SA comic book world would not be as fun or discoverable  with a bunch of juiced up GA/SA books getting upgraded every 5 years as the plastic surgery gets better and better. Quality might be the wrong word...how about  "Real".it is what is and thank god the GA/SA comic book market prices have recognized that there is a difference...a Big one.

 2-There is nothing narrow about my advice, it is universal to both GA/SA, Key, semi Key, or Action #275.. Apparently you have not been reading my most recent posts in Ha about how I thought the large Carl Barks painting in  in the last Ha auction  reserve price was way too high..it sold at reserve to my surprise. The only book I have raved about since I came on the boards in 2011 was Cap 1 and I still think it is a good today. If you have the opportunity to able to purchase a Cap#1 especially unrestored do not let that pass by you in 2020 and beyond. You are confused, I have not told any collector to buy any specific titles and  nobody is ever going to be 100% spot on. My advice both on the buying and selling is simple, buy what you want, what you need but with the abilty to keep that material for 5 years thru unknown times and still be able to maintain your life style prior to the virus. Simple, safe and sane.Cap# 1 value has held and it is not gonna go up every single year, month or day...overtime it will trend upwards. GA is rarer than SA which is rarer than Bronze and that that is the generic structure of our comic book world and cannot be changed. prices should follow accordingly.

3-you should be on board with me on my previous comments on mid range X-Men going for 10x guide as being potentially  dangerous with 6/10/15 copies available in the same grade and I agree with you buying 50 variant covers of the same 2019 comic book is going turn to be a loser down the road.

4-Tough advice for tough times, that is what is needed here and together with all of our comments, thoughts, and insight we will make our GA/AS comic book world safer, smarter and closer.

I could not be more "on board" with the comments about common silver age books or variant covers. 

Mostly, I was pointing out that while your advice is presented as if it's unique to the circumstances of the day, it is the same advice you always give.   

And I was referring not to the excesses of restoration, where somebody truly made something in a "thing which it is not", as you describe.  I was referring instead to the backlash excesses which led to people such as you calling rare books "toilet paper" if they were given so much as a tiny repair or a pinpoint of color touch by some fan who loved the book.    Those excesses still include encouraging people to destroy books to remove things like small bits of fan-administered color touch that is obvious at a glance and neither improves the book nor the grade, while giant scribbles that actually deface the book are considered acceptable and do not detract from a book's "quality" because of some irrational emphasis not on what was done to the book but rather on what may or not have been going on in the mind of the person who did it.   That has led, in many cases, to books being labelled as "restored" when they've only been damaged.  And to some books being called unrestored by virtue of being damaged even further.  And that, in its own way, has led to people calling books as you say a "thing which it is not" and manipulating values in a similar way to the egregecies (if that's a word) you describe. 

CGC has been great for the hobby, with the one exception of its evaluation of some defects based less on the extent of it than the intent behind it.  And on that I think it can be said that they may have been boxed in a bit by the demands of persistent purists.   

You have your opinions on all that, some of which I agree with (and sometimes you've gone back and forth, iirc), but your advice about what to buy and what not buy remains the same whether prices of "restored" books are going up or down, whether "quality" books are going up or down, whether interest in esoteric books is waxing or waning, whether there's a financial crisis or a boom, whether a recent auction overperformed or underperformed, whether there's a raging virus or not.   Your advice hasn't changed, so far as I can see, based on whatever the current circumstances are. 

There should be no mistake about this, however:  I am sure that, on balance, you've been very good for the hobby and fandom.

Edited May 1, 2020 by bluechip

[Mmehdy]

2 hours ago, bluechip said:

I could not be more "on board" with the comments about common silver age books or variant covers. 

Mostly, I was pointing out that while your advice is presented as if it's unique to the circumstances of the day, it is the same advice you always give.   

And I was referring not to the excesses of restoration, where somebody truly made something in a "thing which it is not", as you describe.  I was referring instead to the backlash excesses which led to people such as you calling rare books "toilet paper" if they were given so much as a tiny repair or a pinpoint of color touch by some fan who loved the book.    Those excesses still include encouraging people to destroy books to remove things like small bits of fan-administered color touch that is obvious at a glance and neither improves the book nor the grade, while giant scribbles that actually deface the book are considered acceptable and do not detract from a book's "quality" because of some irrational emphasis not on what was done to the book but rather on what may or not have been going on in the mind of the person who did it.   That has led, in many cases, to books being labelled as "restored" when they've only been damaged.  And to some books being called unrestored by virtue of being damaged even further.  And that, in its own way, has led to people calling books as you say a "thing which it is not" and manipulating values in a similar way to the egregecies (if that's a word) you describe. 

CGC has been great for the hobby, with the one exception of its evaluation of some defects based less on the extent of it than the intent behind it.  And on that I think it can be said that they may have been boxed in a bit by the demands of persistent purists.   

You have your opinions on all that, some of which I agree with (and sometimes you've gone back and forth, iirc), but your advice about what to buy and what not buy remains the same whether prices of "restored" books are going up or down, whether "quality" books are going up or down, whether interest in esoteric books is waxing or waning, whether there's a financial crisis or a boom, whether a recent auction overperformed or underperformed, whether there's a raging virus or not.   Your advice hasn't changed, so far as I can see, based on whatever the current circumstances are. 

There should be no mistake about this, however:  I am sure that, on balance, you've been very good for the hobby and fandom.

 Good response

Counterpoints

1- I do not buy your convenient explanation  on restoration by making a tiny repair out of love. BC..not gonna fly,maybe 1% max for that motivation if lucky. Here is the major problem if you do not draw the line in the sand. Over time restoration of GA comic books morphs into something else. call  it a excuse or exception because you love it, it called qualified grading, it is called pressing, It has a million names for this excuse for not calling it what  is..RESTORED. It is called Action 1 going from 8.5 to 9.0 and over $3 million dollars. This is about money 99% of the time and you know it. I get our point on the danger of unrestored books possibly incurring further degeneration especially I would make the case for rusty staples..should we make another exception, and another an another to further dilute what is unrestored or not..what is reality and a pipe dream. That is the issue, every year as restoration gets better and better the line in the sand moves. I ask you this BC..if it is  fair for the true comic collector who paid a premium price not to have their GA book modified with either good or bad intentions  have their long term value decreased for any excuse or exception . You seem to focus on the members who own the restored book with an emotional reason, excuse, or exception but what you add to  subtracts on the side and we need to consider all sides here.

2-As far as repairing a a GA/SA and converting it to restored to save it...no problem if you truly love the book, sacrifice the value or the label if you truly care about the comic book and not the GPA. I dont see that happening unless you can make a major upgrade if you restore it and again the reason for that could be a  money issue for 99%  of the up graders.

3- Sorry about the typo

4- I appreciate your evaluation of my opinion which includes or implies it at least I am  somewhat consistent over 60 years of comic book collecting.

5- CGC has done much greater good than harm, it has rescued many a collector from disaster. We here a lot about  the negative things that get some play taking on the CGC. However criticism directly fairly and evenly gets positive results from the CGC and make the company and out collecting world more efficient. I wish there would be more positive theads involving some success stories.

 5 BC-thank you for your kind words about me, I would say the same about you.   To everyone who is responding or reading this thread my hat if off to you. We are all in this together.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Mmehdy

[bluechip]

1 hour ago, Mmehdy said:

 Good response

Counterpoints

1- I do not buy your convenient explanation  on restoration by making a tiny repair out of love. BC..not gonna fly,maybe 1% max for that motivation if lucky. Here is the major problem if you do not draw the line in the sand. Over time restoration of GA comic books morphs into something else. 

 

I am not sure what's "convenient" about an example of a book that should not be equated with one that has a virtually recreated cover, but that aside -- the "line in the sand" phrase epitomizes what I think is wrong about treating all "restoration" the same and defining it not by the extent but by the intent.        

The advent of CGC could have and should have precluded any need to "draw a line in the sand" because it could have been (and I believe should have been) all about simple disclosure and notification, not about demonization and, as you put it, forcing anybody who owns one of the demonized books to forego the increase in value it would have if, instead of a tiny blue dot on a blue field of the cover, there was a massive black scribble on the yellow field of the cover... because the massive black scribble is judged only as a defect and the tiny blue dot is viewed as if the book has been rendered into, in your words, "toilet paper."

Identification of all defects, intentional or otherwise, could have easily negated any grade increase achieved by intentional restoration by calling it additional damage and giving no increase for the improved aesthetics.   That policy, strict and consistent, would not have "morph(ed) into something else" but the way things are has caused the whole thing to morph into just another, albeit different way that dealers can purchase something at one level of value ("it's restored so it HAS to be this much less") which then morphs into something else with a better label ("blue").   

You seem to feel that the latter example is the lesser or two evils and that one of the evils is somehow necessary.  I feel that CGC identifying things consistently and unemotionally as damage would make neither of those necessary.

But to end on a more easily agreed note, I have joked, but only half-joked, that comics and art collecting is uniquely suited to survive during an economic slowdown that involves people stuck in their homes.

There will continue to be lots of disposable income.  If not the same as before, still a lot.   And people will continue yearning for things that remind them of their childhood.   (I've found it calming to watch movies and TV shows from my youth I haven't seen in forever, just as my kids are returning to Pokemon games, now played over zoom, etc)

Under social distancing, the rich cannot as easily dine in ridiculously expensive restaurants, visit their ridiculously expensive vacation spots, race their million dollar vintage cars or sit in their ridiculously expensive seats at Wimbledom or the Super Bowl.   Many of the indulgences of excess money are curtailed under intermittent quarantine.  

But the collecting of nostalgic things which you can shop for online and have sent to your home, contact-free... where you can enjoy and it and read it or hang it on your wall, even show it to your friends... all that you can do.   And if it's one of a much smaller number of things you can still do, you might just do it more.

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by bluechip

[Cat-Man_America]

10 hours ago, fishbone said:

well, keep drinking the java then   Another great post, thank you for your (very much respected) opinion. And like I said, I certainly am not anywhere near a major player to say what one should do on here or not, it's a free chat board for anyone to post s**t within reason, but I have just always been very curious about the Man who "Manned Up" initially in the 70's, seemed to have no problem with all the press back then , but now nothing mentioned or shown here of anything current . If I'm being a bit of an a-hole here about that, and I probably am, then my bad I'm sorry.  Peace all you geeks, and stay safe 

Your posts are fine, and you're a gentleman.  No need to apologize.  We're all strongly opinionated here, myself especially.  Also, I have a tendency toward verbosity after caffeination and everyone here are victims of the runoff.

9 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

Great post and valid points.

Here are my counterpoints:

1-Quality is determined by a number of factors including rarity, condition, and the very comic book itself. As as GA and SA comic book collector, my opinion is weighted by my childhood experiences as well as my general appreciation of history especially 1938-1945. you do not have to be any type of 'old time tear sealing collector" to demand quality unrestored, untouched comic books as long as you are willing to pay the price. Back in the early 70's when restoration was just beginning and become a major issue, myself and a number of "old school" collectors which were about half that said no...no to greed and promise of riches by doing a "face Job " on you key GA/SA books...just look at the early restorer's adds, CBG and early Overstreet  price guides..l and a handful  of other true comic book collectors knew deep down inside that it was not right to make something that it is not..just to make profit. It is because of our dedication that we have CGC in existence today to help determine what is real and what is not in terms of "fixing" or restoring..a easier way to put. I will never restore, press, or alter for a higher grade any GA/SA comic book no matter how much profit is to be made and you had better thank the others who agreed with me, otherwise every GA/SA book would have undergone a steroid upgrade. Our GA/SA comic book world would not be as fun or discoverable  with a bunch of juiced up GA/SA books getting upgraded every 5 years as the plastic surgery gets better and better. Quality might be the wrong word...how about  "Real".it is what is and thank god the GA/SA comic book market prices have recognized that there is a difference...a Big one.

 2-There is nothing narrow about my advice, it is universal to both GA/SA, Key, semi Key, or Action #275.. Apparently you have not been reading my most recent posts in Ha about how I thought the large Carl Barks painting in  in the last Ha auction  reserve price was way too high..it sold at reserve to my surprise. The only book I have raved about since I came on the boards in 2011 was Cap 1 and I still think it is a good today. If you have the opportunity to able to purchase a Cap#1 especially unrestored do not let that pass by you in 2020 and beyond. You are confused, I have not told any collector to buy any specific titles and  nobody is ever going to be 100% spot on. My advice both on the buying and selling is simple, buy what you want, what you need but with the abilty to keep that material for 5 years thru unknown times and still be able to maintain your life style prior to the virus. Simple, safe and sane.Cap# 1 value has held and it is not gonna go up every single year, month or day...overtime it will trend upwards. GA is rarer than SA which is rarer than Bronze and that that is the generic structure of our comic book world and cannot be changed. prices should follow accordingly.

3-you should be on board with me on my previous comments on mid range X-Men going for 10x guide as being potentially  dangerous with 6/10/15 copies available in the same grade and I agree with you buying 50 variant covers of the same 2019 comic book is going turn to be a loser down the road.

4-Tough advice for tough times, that is what is needed here and together with all of our comments, thoughts, and insight we will make our GA/AS comic book world safer, smarter and closer.

Restoration hasn't been a serious issue for concern to comic collectors since the evolution of encapsulation.  Disclosure on grading labels endeavors to eliminate the stigma by providing ease in determining the degree and methods of restoration.  In my estimation, it's important to recognize that restoration has long been accepted by dedicated collectors and museums as a means of paper preservation.  Unfortunately, decades of abusive dealer practices during the early boom years of comics fandom victimized collectors, giving restoration a bad reputation.  Comic restoration deserves the same consideration today as restoration is given for any collectable parchment, manuscript, poster, historical document or other processed lignin.  While I respect your decision not to restore ...and I'm no fan of subterfuge for profit... the only reason some rare books are still with us in any form is because someone had the forethought to professionally preserve them.  When looking at it this way, it only serves to highlight the value of comics as a commodity worth collecting.  

4 hours ago, bluechip said:

I am not sure what's "convenient" about an example of a book that should not be equated with one that has a virtually recreated cover, but that aside -- the "line in the sand" phrase epitomizes what I think is wrong about treating all "restoration" the same and defining it not by the extent but by the intent.        

The advent of CGC could have and should have precluded any need to "draw a line in the sand" because it could have been (and I believe should have been) all about simple disclosure and notification, not about demonization and, as you put it, forcing anybody who owns one of the demonized books to forego the increase in value it would have if, instead of a tiny blue dot on a blue field of the cover, there was a massive black scribble on the yellow field of the cover... because the massive black scribble is judged only as a defect and the tiny blue dot is viewed as if the book has been rendered into, in your words, "toilet paper."

Identification of all defects, intentional or otherwise, could have easily negated any grade increase achieved by intentional restoration by calling it additional damage and giving no increase for the improved aesthetics.   That policy, strict and consistent, would not have "morph(ed) into something else" but the way things are has caused the whole thing to morph into just another, albeit different way that dealers can purchase something at one level of value ("it's restored so it HAS to be this much less") which then morphs into something else with a better label ("blue").   

You seem to feel that the latter example is the lesser or two evils and that one of the evils is somehow necessary.  I feel that CGC identifying things consistently and unemotionally as damage would make neither of those necessary.

But to end on a more easily agreed note, I have joked, but only half-joked, that comics and art collecting is uniquely suited to survive during an economic slowdown that involves people stuck in their homes.

There will continue to be lots of disposable income.  If not the same as before, still a lot.   And people will continue yearning for things that remind them of their childhood.   (I've found it calming to watch movies and TV shows from my youth I haven't seen in forever, just as my kids are returning to Pokemon games, now played over zoom, etc)

Under social distancing, the rich cannot as easily dine in ridiculously expensive restaurants, visit their ridiculously expensive vacation spots, race their million dollar vintage cars or sit in their ridiculously expensive seats at Wimbledom or the Super Bowl.   Many of the indulgences of excess money are curtailed under intermittent quarantine.  

But the collecting of nostalgic things which you can shop for online and have sent to your home, contact-free... where you can enjoy and it and read it or hang it on your wall, even show it to your friends... all that you can do.   And if it's one of a much smaller number of things you can still do, you might just do it more.

 

Some of my toilet paper (I think I'm on a roll here)...  

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Fortunately, these scarce commodities weren't required for service early in the pandemic.  

Edited May 2, 2020 by Cat-Man_America

[bluechip]

This got to be more about restoration than I'd thought it would.   I was also talking about esoteric versus well-known collectibles, and the tendency of some to say, in any market: "You'll do well if you just avoid what the other guy has, and invest in what I have."  

The one argument that begs for a little b.s. call is the "other people are doing what they do for profit, but not me."    Some people bought high grade unrestored books because that is how they loved them most -- and they could afford them.  Which is great.  Meanwhile, some people bought low grade or restored books because they loved and could only afford the lesser books. 

Why is it fair to say that the books the privileged guy could afford will be (and must be) the only ones that go up in value, while the lesser books another guy bought will not (and must not) ever go up in value? 

Now to be clear, I understand that's an exaggeration of the extreme that some people make the argument.   But it's not much a very big exaggeration, and I've heard some who exceed that by saying the guys who bought the lesser books must expect to lose money, because the gap will (and must) widen further and further, even though we're now decades beyond the advent of slabbing and resto identification, etc.

There was a long period of time when Overstreet said 1) books in all grades should increase at about the same rate and 2) you should restore a book to improve its appearance.   Now that left things open to abuse if people said a fair copy was actually a NM.   But encapsulation and identification could prevent that without creating other opportunities for abuse problems -- or, worse, a system in which people who can only afford lesser books are told their collections are not "investment" but just for fun, while the bigger buyers can have their fun and make money.    

If you refrain from restoring a book, and you want praise for not trying to stick it to somebody, you deserve that praise.   But if trying to ensure that the guys who bought restored books must never make money when they resell it, then aren't you're essentially doing the same thing you railed about in the first place -- which is trying to ensure that you make money at the expense of other collectors?  Now, before anyone takes that out of context and says it's about cheaters selling lower grade items as pure NM, it's vital to note that I'm asking this not days, weeks, months or even a few years into the age of disclosure and identification.  We are now decades into the age of slabbing and disclosure.  The initial frenzy to punish the sellers of fake mint books should not have led to the perpetual punishment of people who bought a fair-good key that turns out to have, among its many other grade-appropriate defects and markings, a tiny dot that was applied with a presumed evil intent.    But that's where we are.

About the viability of books long-term, I have some opinions which would differ from some here about which will or won't continue to accumulate, and I am pretty sure of my reasoning, but I try to remind myself to limit any public postings to those things which I think are positive, lest I tread on the collections/retirement of someone.  I don't always succeed, because the temptation is sometimes strong to say "You're recommending that?!"    But I can squelch it if I remember how many people thought I was nuts for buying any funny books in the first place.  

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by bluechip

[Cat-Man_America]

15 minutes ago, bluechip said:

This got to be more about restoration than I'd thought it would.   I was also talking about esoteric versus well-known collectibles, and the tendency of some to say, in any market: "You'll do well if you just avoid what the other guy has, and invest in what I have."  

The one argument that begs for a little b.s. call is the "other people are doing what they do for profit, but not me."    Some people bought high grade unrestored books because that is how they loved them most -- and they could afford them.  Which is great.  Meanwhile, some people bought low grade or restored books because they loved and could only afford the lesser books. 

Why is it fair to say that the books the privileged guy could afford will be (and must be) the only ones that go up in value, while the lesser books another guy bought will not (and must not) ever go up in value? 

Now to be clear, I understand that's an exaggeration of the extreme that some people make the argument.   But it's not much a very big exaggeration, and I've heard some who exceed that by saying the guys who bought the lesser books must expect to lose money, because the gap will (and must) widen further and further, even though we're now decades beyond the advent of slabbing and resto identification, etc.

If you refrain from restoring a book, and you want praise for not trying to stick it to somebody, you deserve that praise.   But if trying to ensure that the guys who bought restored books must never make money when they resell it, then aren't you're essentially doing the same thing you railed about in the first place -- which is trying to ensure that you make money at the expense of other collectors?  It's important to note that I'm asking this not days, weeks, months or even a few years into the age of disclosure and identification.  We are now decades into the age of slabbing and disclosure.  The initial frenzy to punish the sellers of fake mint books should not have led to the perpetual punishment of people who bought a fair-good key that turns out to have, among its many other grade-appropriate defects and markings, a tiny dot that was applied with a presumed evil intent.    But that's where we are.

About the viability of books long-term, I have some opinions which would differ from some here about which will or won't continue to accumulate, and I am pretty sure of my reasoning, but I try to remind myself to limit any public postings to those things which I think are positive, lest I tread on the collections/retirement of someone.  I don't always succeed, because the temptation is sometimes strong to say "You're recommending that?!"    But I can squelch it if I remember how many people thought I was nuts for buying any funny books in the first place.  

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

I think this gravitated toward restoration because Mitch has an old school attitude based on how the markets were impacted by deceptive practices prior to third party grading being embraced by the collecting community.  We’re twenty years into this bold journey now, well past the point where undisclosed restoration should be an issue.  Those folks buying raw books still have to be wary or experienced in what to look for restoration-wise, but since holdered books are the accepted norm and 3rd party graded books sell at a premium over raw, this is kinda moot, isn’t it?

I’m sure that our poking a little fun at Mitch’s old toilet paper comment won’t offend anyone, least of all Mitch.  Hopefully, it was Charmin remark. 

A far more controversial subject is grading accuracy.  Before the auction I suggested carefully examining graded books front and back, ignoring the bold CGC grade label, if possible.  After the auction has officially concluded my hope is that this topic will be revisited.  There are observations worth sharing that shouldn’t offend other successful bidders reading this thread.

 

[bluechip]

9 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

I

I’m sure that our poking a little fun at Mitch’s old toilet paper comment won’t offend anyone, least of all Mitch.  Hopefully, it was Charmin remark. 

 

 

The real irony is that toilet paper is now more difficult to obtain than golden age books

[jimbo_7071]

6 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

I think this gravitated toward restoration because Mitch has an old school attitude based on how the markets were impacted by deceptive practices prior to third party grading being embraced by the collecting community.  We’re twenty years into this bold journey now, well past the point where undisclosed restoration should be an issue.  Those folks buying raw books still have to be wary or experienced in what to look for restoration-wise, but since holdered books are the accepted norm and 3rd party graded books sell at a premium over raw, this is kinda moot, isn’t it?

I’m sure that our poking a little fun at Mitch’s old toilet paper comment won’t offend anyone, least of all Mitch.  Hopefully, it was Charmin remark. 

A far more controversial subject is grading accuracy.  Before the auction I suggested carefully examining graded books front and back, ignoring the bold CGC grade label, if possible.  After the auction has officially concluded my hope is that this topic will be revisited.  There are observations worth sharing that shouldn’t offend other successful bidders reading this thread.

 

One book that looked badly overgraded to me (as I mentioned before) was the Subby 32. It sold for $4,320, which seems like an average price for a 7.0. It was a very strong price for a 5.0, which is what the book should have been graded. I also looked at some of the WDC&S; I thought that some of the 9.2s were MUCH nicer than others.

[Mmehdy]

On 5/1/2020 at 6:51 PM, bluechip said:

I am not sure what's "convenient" about an example of a book that should not be equated with one that has a virtually recreated cover, but that aside -- the "line in the sand" phrase epitomizes what I think is wrong about treating all "restoration" the same and defining it not by the extent but by the intent.        

The advent of CGC could have and should have precluded any need to "draw a line in the sand" because it could have been (and I believe should have been) all about simple disclosure and notification, not about demonization and, as you put it, forcing anybody who owns one of the demonized books to forego the increase in value it would have if, instead of a tiny blue dot on a blue field of the cover, there was a massive black scribble on the yellow field of the cover... because the massive black scribble is judged only as a defect and the tiny blue dot is viewed as if the book has been rendered into, in your words, "toilet paper."

Identification of all defects, intentional or otherwise, could have easily negated any grade increase achieved by intentional restoration by calling it additional damage and giving no increase for the improved aesthetics.   That policy, strict and consistent, would not have "morph(ed) into something else" but the way things are has caused the whole thing to morph into just another, albeit different way that dealers can purchase something at one level of value ("it's restored so it HAS to be this much less") which then morphs into something else with a better label ("blue").   

You seem to feel that the latter example is the lesser or two evils and that one of the evils is somehow necessary.  I feel that CGC identifying things consistently and unemotionally as damage would make neither of those necessary.

But to end on a more easily agreed note, I have joked, but only half-joked, that comics and art collecting is uniquely suited to survive during an economic slowdown that involves people stuck in their homes.

There will continue to be lots of disposable income.  If not the same as before, still a lot.   And people will continue yearning for things that remind them of their childhood.   (I've found it calming to watch movies and TV shows from my youth I haven't seen in forever, just as my kids are returning to Pokemon games, now played over zoom, etc)

Under social distancing, the rich cannot as easily dine in ridiculously expensive restaurants, visit their ridiculously expensive vacation spots, race their million dollar vintage cars or sit in their ridiculously expensive seats at Wimbledom or the Super Bowl.   Many of the indulgences of excess money are curtailed under intermittent quarantine.  

But the collecting of nostalgic things which you can shop for online and have sent to your home, contact-free... where you can enjoy and it and read it or hang it on your wall, even show it to your friends... all that you can do.   And if it's one of a much smaller number of things you can still do, you might just do it more.

 

Food for Thought

My counterpoints

1-Restored means what it means ..repaired, upgraded or steroid injected and pressed. Once you lose the reality and let exceptions in as wide as a Mack truck, then we lose the distinction of what it really is. I agree with you that restoration can done out of love, money or unintentionally. But it is still a reality. In real world a comic book that has been pressed or staples replace or a coin which has been cleaned SHOULD not be valued equally to the same book and condition which is free of any alteration. That is fair, that is simple and that is just. I understand that to you the price differences of a A1 9.0 restored should not 50 times the value of the unrestored and that is GA/SA market issue. But that value difference is there for MANY reasons. The principal reason is to STOP any further alteration or suffer a market price reduction reduction. Thank God for that and the thousands of books that have been saved with some minor and some major repairs which will alter what is really is. There is good reason which the penalty is so stiff. Keep GA/SA comic book collecting in real and fair collecting world. Let it be, what it really is.

2-Your comic book dream world is where all comic books are equal under one label, one world, with a so-called penalty of the resulting grade. It will  not work, and in fact it will never work. Who determines what to deduct and how much...think about how much damage will created by attempting to hide restoration or increased by the fact that the label  will be the same color. Think of the new collector who looks at the same color label and does not comprehend why the price is cheaper. There are a million reasons wrong with that. 

3- I do not think restoration is "evil", I think it has the potential to defraud Ga/SA comic book buyers as to what they are really getting for there dollars and in turn could create collectors leaving our GA/SA comic book world with a bad taste in their month. We don't need to lose more GA/SA collectors we need more and new ones replacing us as we move on voluntary or not...LOL CGC has played a very important role in saving our collecting industry for many years to come. Changing a  imperfect GA/SA grading world just to create another one which might be fairer or better according to your standards leaves us open for many more problems that we have today.

4-Economic downturns are bad for every type of collectable field because eventually their effects catch up and when they do, natural market conditions will apply.

5-Rich or Poor...myself and a heck of lot of other Southern California's miss going into In & Out burger and just smelling the greatest burger cooking or the best best burrito. You do not have spend riches to get quality...you just have to know where to look and my favorite meals costs $7.25 of which I probably have eaten there 750 times minimum. This virus or economic downturn is gonna hit everybody including the rich, the poor and us in the middle. Collecting is great BUT BC there are some  major changes coming to the GA/SA comic book market. How Long, How Bad...that is why we have this thread ...we should be on the forefront of discovering just those answers together.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Mmehdy

[bluechip]

1 hour ago, Mmehdy said:

In real world a comic book that has been pressed or staples replace or a coin which has been cleaned SHOULD not be valued equally to the same book and condition which is free of any alteration. That is fair, that is simple and that is just. I understand that to you the price differences of a A1 9.0 restored should not 50 times the value of the unrestored and that is GA/SA market issue. But that value difference is there for MANY reasons.

 

 

I am not sure what you're saying.  I certainly would not disagree that the absolute best copy of a rare book like Action 1 should be worth 50 times more than the worst such copy out there.   

But should an Action 1 that gets a blue label (either 9.0 or something else) be worth 50 times more than a copy that gets the same number but a purple label for no reason aside from the fact that a speck of glue on the staple is judged to have been put there intentionally instead of accidentally?   That would be nuts.  

But even if you don't think that would be nuts.   

You say, effectively, that it's necessary to overcompensate, overreact, over-punish and devalue such books with extreme prejudice because, as you say--

"The principal reason is to STOP any further alteration or suffer a market price reduction reduction."

Do you really feel we cannot disincentive people from putting glue on the spine of their books unless we devalue them 98% for even the slightest microdot of glue or color touch?     

And must we do the same across the board?   If an "unrestored Action 1, torn and battered with a kid's name scribbled across the logo and a mustache drawn on Superman's face, is worth, say between 300 and 500K, would an Action 1 that gets a 2.0 purple label be worth only 2% of that, between 2 and 6 thousand?   And would it be worth only that because, instead of a mustache on Superman's face, there was some blue pen that filled in a crease on the logo?   

Encapsulation and simple, unadorned, unemotional, unaugmented identification is all the market needs to put a proper value on a restored item.  If strict grading meant that glue on a spine was considered a defect, then a book with a tear sealed would be graded as if it still was torn AND had additional damage on top of that with the glue.   Thus, two books that look similar, would not get the same grade.  The natural 9.0 would still be 9.0 and the other might look like a 9.0 but would get a grade that's less.  Even if it was so good before the glue that it might have gotten an 8.0 in its original state, the glue would bring the number down instead of up, and the value would also be down.  At the Action 1 level of pricing you're talking six figures at minimum and perhaps even seven figures of difference.  That's not enough to disincentive people?   We must artificially bring the value down 98% -- which would be what, $60K?

Doing that, or even just saying we must do that, does not make people think the hobby is rational.  And the less they think it's rational, the less likely it will be to have the stability that both you and I want.

 

 

[fifties]

3 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

CGC has played a very important role in saving our collecting industry for many years to come.

I don't think so.  We collected comic books before they ever came along, and would continue to do so if they ever left.  All they've done is create a second tier in pricing which leaves many of us behind, and establishes a venue for investors.  I'm sure there are true collectors who are wholly or partly in this for the cover art only, and in that case of course the slab doesn't matter.  But for those of us who collect in order to read the books, the slabs are a nuisance, in addition to costing us far more than if they were raw.  JMO.

[Cat-Man_America]

3 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

Food for Thought

My counterpoints

1-Restored means what it means ..repaired, upgraded or steroid injected and pressed. Once you lose the reality and let exceptions in as wide as a Mack truck, then we lose the distinction of what it really is. I agree with you that restoration can done out of love, money or unintentionally. But it is still a reality. In real world a comic book that has been pressed or staples replace or a coin which has been cleaned SHOULD not be valued equally to the same book and condition which is free of any alteration. That is fair, that is simple and that is just. I understand that to you the price differences of a A1 9.0 restored should not 50 times the value of the unrestored and that is GA/SA market issue. But that value difference is there for MANY reasons. The principal reason is to STOP any further alteration or suffer a market price reduction reduction. Thank God for that and the thousands of books that have been saved with some minor and some major repairs which will alter what is really is. There is good reason which the penalty is so stiff. Keep GA/SA comic book collecting in real and fair collecting world. Let it be, what it really is.

2-Your comic book dream world is where all comic books are equal under one label, one world, with a so-called penalty of the resulting grade. It will  not work, and in fact it will never work. Who determines what to deduct and how much...think about how much damage will created by attempting to hide restoration or increased by the fact that the label  will be the same color. Think of the new collector who looks at the same color label and does not comprehend why the price is cheaper. There are a million reasons wrong with that. 

3- I do not think restoration is "evil", I think it has the potential to defraud Ga/SA comic book buyers as to what they are really getting for there dollars and in turn could create collectors leaving our GA/SA comic book world with a bad taste in their month. We don't need to lose more GA/SA collectors we need more and new ones replacing us as we move on voluntary or not...LOL CGC has played a very important role in saving our collecting industry for many years to come. Changing a  imperfect GA/SA grading world just to create another one which might be fairer or better according to your standards leaves us open for many more problems that we have today.

4-Economic downturns are bad for every type of collectable field because eventually their effects catch up and when they do, natural market conditions will apply.

5-Rich or Poor...myself and a heck of lot of other Southern California's miss going into In & Out burger and just smelling the greatest burger cooking or the best best burrito. You do not have spend riches to get quality...you just have to know where to look and my favorite meals costs $7.25 of which I probably have eaten there 750 times minimum. This virus or economic downturn is gonna hit everybody including the rich, the poor and us in the middle. Collecting is great BUT BC there are some  major changes coming to the GA/SA comic book market. How Long, How Bad...that is why we have this thread ...we should be on the forefront of discovering just those answers together.

C'mon Mitch, you must've read my earlier post.  If you think restoration is still an issue with today's third party graded books then you're still stuck in 1998, when you should be partying like it's 1999 (OK, technically CGC was founded on Jan. 4th 2000, but you get the idea).  BTW, I've never liked the idea of color coding restoration labels because it unnecessarily stigmatizes the actual amount of professional work done.  People can read.  It's easy enough to clearly print what work was done on the label.  Disclosure was always the key issue, and third party grading takes that off the table.

The logic you've espoused in bullet-point No. 3 would have restorations of classic movie posters, original manuscripts and irreplaceable historical documents relegated to TP rolls.  Not only is restoration not evil, when done by a competent professional it should be highly desirable for books that are rare, valuable and at risk of loss.

What you should make a greater effort to wrap your head around is how normal the idea of restoration is in the antique world.  It's accepted and gauged by professionals, experts in their fields who appraise value based on surviving condition.  Sure, original condition is always the highest desired by collectors, but that isn't always achievable at any price.  Even with classic cars, restored parts are an acceptable part of the market.

As for getting beyond the coronavirus and having some sense of normality again, this forum and others are like oases in a dessert of shifting sand.  We're probably not going to find answers to the economic crisis here or pick the right size crystal ball for predicting every auction result, but once the pandemic passes and there's an antiviral vaccine that works I'll gladly join you for a burrito after next year's SDCC. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Cat-Man_America

[Cat-Man_America]

18 minutes ago, fifties said:

I don't think so.  We collected comic books before they ever came along, and would continue to do so if they ever left.  All they've done is create a second tier in pricing which leaves many of us behind, and establishes a venue for investors.  I'm sure there are true collectors who are wholly or partly in this for the cover art only, and in that case of course the slab doesn't matter.  But for those of us who collect in order to read the books, the slabs are a nuisance, in addition to costing us far more than if they were raw.  JMO.

I buy reprints for reading and graded copies to treasure.  Mitch has a good point about third party grading having an impact on undisclosed restoration, but you have a good point about tier pressure.