I wish CGC did signature verification like CBCS 0

[antoniofett]

I have 300+ signed books and I have sent some to CBCS for their signature verification program, but I wish CGC had one to. They have nice labels and slabs and I think they would complement some of my books really well.

take a peek

 

[BladeTX]

Well plenty of more experienced people will weigh in here but the physical chain of custody with CGC guarantees an authentic signature.   I like that when I buy CGC books I know that it was signed in their care or collected from the signer directly.  I don't have to worry about fakes.. I don't trust COAs in general.   And the premium people pay for CGC Signature Series is pretty substantial versus even a graded book with a green label (unverified signature)

[Avi]

LOL In before the lock!

 

[Myowncollector]

You would think they would do it. Just another way to make money and if they did do it then The B team would be just about out of business. Probably worried about legality but even if they made submitters sign a notarized waiver a lot of people would. Just a one time thing they could keep on file something like although cgc takes great strides to weed out fraudulent signatures, forgeries are a possibility. 

If you aren't reselling you can easily learn to verify signatures yourself. For comics it's not really necessary with exceptions of a few artists. Most artists signatures add little value to the item. For a forger to learn a Signature it needs to be profitable. They would much rather stick to athletes and celebrities. Watch out for the more recent Stan Lee signatures as they are easier to forge, hard to detect due to more variables. You are fine with green labels or COA. Just educate yourself a little bit. 

[antoniofett]

Yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of fakes out there. All my sigs I've collected myslef at cons over the years. Nothing super valuable. However one thing I love that CGC does that CBCS doesnt, is magazine size slabs.

[Genuine Article Comics]

CGC not offering an authentication service is a missed opportunity. Authentication service by handwriting professionals is the best case scenario when a book has been signed unwitnessed. There was an entire generation of collectors at cons getting signatures before the witness program was even dreamed of. This generation (and then some) of signed books need this service. CBCS is addressing the hobbyists' need.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Angelo.

[Genuine Article Comics]

12 hours ago, Myowncollector said:

...if they did do it then The B team would be just about out of business.

If by B team, you mean CBCS, never happen. Their product is too good to go away. They're legit and here to stay...and as hobbyists we should encourage it.

[Genuine Article Comics]

7 minutes ago, Bax77 said:

The best case scenario is not to get involved in a sketchy operation in the first place  CGC values the integrity of their SS program too much to get involved with something like this.

So? Those people got books signed because the loved the hobby and the creators. You think they need some dicey authentication service to prove anything? Old school collectors got autographs out of love, not greed.

Not sure what one has to do with the other. It's an authentication service provided by handwriting experts based on known verified examples. A legitimate service in practice far before the comic hobby needed it.

[Genuine Article Comics]

We're obviously not going to agree on this service so we can leave it at that. To you its dicey and greed intentioned and to me it's a legitimate, recognized profession and a service needed in the hobby.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Angelo.

[comix4fun]

1 hour ago, Angelo. said:

CGC not offering an authentication service is a missed opportunity. Authentication service by handwriting professionals is the best case scenario when a book has been signed unwitnessed. There was an entire generation of collectors at cons getting signatures before the witness program was even dreamed of. This generation (and then some) of signed books need this service. CBCS is addressing the hobbyists' need.

Some people like the fact that CGC isn't guessing if a signature is authentic or not. 

A lot of people prefer that if they buy a signed slabbed book that the label indicates that the signature was actually witnessed, and affirmed to be from that person, and not simply a best guess that it looks a lot like the signature of that person, as best they can tell, but won't guarantee it. 

It's fine that people want to get their pre-SS books slabbed by someone, but there are real reasons why witnessed signatures will always be a superior product to "verified" signatures. Because no matter how "professional" the handwriting analyst is (and these are NOT FBI-level forensic analysts, I assure you) he's just giving you his or her best guess. For a lot of purchasers, that's not good enough because they've been down this road before and been let down by "verified" signatures that turned out to be fakes. 

[Genuine Article Comics]

10 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Some people like the fact that CGC isn't guessing if a signature is authentic or not. 

A lot of people prefer that if they buy a signed slabbed book that the label indicates that the signature was actually witnessed, and affirmed to be from that person, and not simply a best guess that it looks a lot like the signature of that person, as best they can tell, but won't guarantee it. 

It's fine that people want to get their pre-SS books slabbed by someone, but there are real reasons why witnessed signatures will always be a superior product to "verified" signatures. Because no matter how "professional" the handwriting analyst is (and these are NOT FBI-level forensic analysts, I assure you) he's just giving you his or her best guess. For a lot of purchasers, that's not good enough because they've been down this road before and been let down by "verified" signatures that turned out to be fakes. 

This implies the SS program is infallible and it too is not 100%. The grades assigned to the books themselves is an opinion is it not? An opinion from professionals, correct? The signature authentication is nothing less.

[Jeffro.]

1 hour ago, Angelo. said:

CGC not offering an authentication service is a missed opportunity. Authentication service by handwriting professionals is the best case scenario when a book has been signed unwitnessed. There was an entire generation of collectors at cons getting signatures before the witness program was even dreamed of. This generation (and then some) of signed books need this service. CBCS is addressing the hobbyists' need.

Given the huge amount of signature fraud in many collectibles fields over the years, it's very risky to verify sigs that you didn't witness being done by the signer. Crafty crooks figure out ways to game the system. They always do. 

[comix4fun]

On 5/2/2020 at 11:11 AM, Angelo. said:

This implies the SS program is infallible and it too is not 100%. The grades assigned to the books themselves is an opinion is it not? An opinion from professionals, correct? The signature authentication is nothing less.

One's a guarantee. A factual statement the signature was witnessed before slabbing. No opinions. No hypotheticals. Just a statement of fact.

One's a guess. A good guess. A bad guess. An educated guess. A google search "looks pretty similar" guess....but in the end a guess.

Buy the book, not the slab grade, has been the mantra since slabbing was invented (across all hobbies). So people can look at a book and make their own decision as to grade, before they buy, and choose whether or not to take the grader's opinion into account. Divining whether a signature is real or not, after the fact, isn't in the same realm of standards or reliability as book grading. 

The stakes are entirely different between "opinion of grade" and "opinion of authenticity of signature". 

If the grade is a 9.6 instead of 9.8 there's a diminution of value partially. 
If the signature is a fake the item is rendered entirely worthless. 

That's why after the fact guesswork as to whether or not a signature is real will never be on par with witnessed signatures. It will never have the broad acceptance and reliance of the yellow label and thus will always suffer in the marketplace, which is why in the end, people have their items slabbed....to make them more liquid and to protect the dollars invested in them. 

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by comix4fun

[Jeffro.]

4 hours ago, Bax77 said:

4 hours ago, Angelo. said:

If by B team, you mean CBCS, never happen. Their product is too good to go away. They're legit and here to stay...and as hobbyists we should encourage it.

 now here's a post that deserves flaming 

Well, CBCS is filling a need that CGC does not. That's probably why they started offering it in the first place. 
In terms of competition in general, that's good for all of us. We should encourage competition.

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Jeffro.
stupid typo

[Genuine Article Comics]

Did CGC not change there SS witness program back in 2018 that broke the chain of verification? Serious question...they changed something in their process did they not?

[Semicentennial]

26 minutes ago, Angelo. said:

Did CGC not change there SS witness program back in 2018 that broke the chain of verification? Serious question...they changed something in their process did they not?

I'm not sure about CGC, but I remember CBCS allowing people to be their own witness at conventions.  Here is the link.

https://forum.cbcscomics.com/topic/3599/questions-about-authorized-witnesses/

[Semicentennial]

2 hours ago, Bax77 said:

Wow, I'm not sure what thread Antonio read, but he is ripping this one on the CBCS board. 

https://forum.cbcscomics.com/topic/11831/why-i-enjoy-the-cbcs-forums-more-than-the-cgc-forums/

Maybe if I had told him he'd get more responses in The Signature Room he wouldn't have said we ripped into him like a pack of sharks? 

Good to see some people setting him straight on that CBCS thread 

I'm also confused with his response since it seems everyone was rather helpful to him.  

[Semicentennial]

2 hours ago, Angelo. said:

If by B team, you mean CBCS, never happen. Their product is too good to go away. They're legit and here to stay...and as hobbyists we should encourage it.

I'm sure they will be here for a while.  Since they launched their census, I looked up a couple recent "hot" books and was surprised at the difference between the number graded between the two companies.  The total number graded is not even close.  Doesn't look too legit to me.

Hell Arisen #3

CGC
Total 944 0 78 0 1022
Total 116 0 19 0 135
Total graded 1157

CBCS
Year of the Villain: Hell Arisen (DC - 2020) Ricardo Federici Variant 3 0 0 5 4 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 11/0
Year of the Villain: Hell Arisen (DC - 2020) 3 0 0 17 5 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 25/0
Total graded 36

Batman 89

CGC
Regular Cover Total 437 3 87 0 527
Variant Cover Total 195 0 35 0 230
Total 757

CBCS
Batman (DC - 2020) Francesco Mattina Variant 89 0 0 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 12/0
Batman (DC - 2020) 89 0 0 32 2 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 35/0
Total 47
 

 

[Genuine Article Comics]

I like and use both companies. I think CBCS is a positive contributor to this hobby. They elevate it. There's room for both. It shouldn't be a competition amongst the hobbyists....the let companies battle it out...let the hobbyists use the positives that both companies offer. If you feel one company isn't offering something positive, fine, but don't get in the way of people who do. There's room for both.

[comix4fun]

2 minutes ago, Bax77 said:

Looks like they pulled my link to the CBCS board? Harumph. It's easy to find, it's currently at the top.

Here's a recent quote that's telling. Posters over there don't care about accuracy or honesty, they just want to bash CGC.

"CGC's negative reaction to the concept of VSP sounds a lot like sour grapes."

 

I guess personal experience with the myriad of failures and the unproven soothsaying of "Sure, that's a real Warhol signature" only to have it be a worthless fake handwriting guesswork is "sour grapes" instead of lessons learned. 

One can only share one's experiences with others in the hopes of helping them see the pro's and con's, one cannot make them understand. Some people need to have something blow up in their face in order to believe it may and shall blow up.