Is this for real? DC Cuts Ties with Diamond Comic Distributors 5 5

[Myowncollector]

21 minutes ago, Hieronymus Bosch said:

15 years ago there were 9000 Blockbuster Video stores in the world, now there are ZERO

Great point! Totally the same thing. I am sure music stores are the same. Video games will probably follow. These are media entertainment things. Easiest hassle free cheapest way will win out. Majority of people haven't rented a movie or bought a cd since Netflix and Napster. Most people aren't bagging and slabbing or speculating on CDs dvds. People do collect video games, but mostly vintage ones. I dont know of people buying 50 copies of the latest call of duty for speculation or picking out the best copies to send off for grading.

Printed comics aren't going anywhere. They are still profitable and a good marketing advertising tool. Maybe dc won't be producing them but that is because they are poorly ran. 

 

[MrBedrock]

On 6/5/2020 at 1:03 PM, FlyingDonut said:

I am 100% sure that this is the first step in DC no longer publishing physical copies of monthly comics. They will go online only for the monthly books and then release collections as trades - the fact that there are two different distributors is a huge tell.

BTW if you're not in the United States I have no idea how you're going to get DC books, as there's no overseas agreement with the two new companies.

I am 99% sure you are incorrect in that assumption.

[MrBedrock]

15 hours ago, lighthouse said:

To give a concrete example of the lack of thought from DC lately:

Diamond has distributed statues and action figures for DC for decades. These items are a significant component of most comic shops’ aggregate spending with DC (which determines the discount received on periodicals).

Nowhere in the email from DC today are statues and figures addressed. Retailers are directed to two new distributors for floppies and trades, or to PRH for trades. No mention is made anywhere of statues that are FOC’d six months ahead of shipment.

DC and Diamond have different distribution deals for different lines of product. For instance DC long ago split off their exclusive graphic novel business from Diamond. New trades are available through Diamond and Penguin/Random House. Backlist is also available through both. Most larger retailers have been ordering from PRH for a couple of years already. The toy and statue agreement between the two parties must still be in effect. When something changes there will be an announcement.

[MrBedrock]

I just don't get it.

Why is it that comic shops that carry toys aspire to order direct from the toy manufacturers (and can do so in many cases)?

Why is it that comic shops who carry games aspire to order direct from the game manufactures (and can do so in many cases)?

Why is it that comic shops who carry apparel and gift items aspire to order those items direct from the manufacturer (and can do so in many cases)?

The answer in every case is lower price and direct service.

That is how retail works.

Now - why is it that comic shops do not aspire to order direct from the publishers (and couldn't even if they tried)? Why does the comic retailing industry romanticize an outdated distribution system that hinders individual store's ability to customize their service? And why do publishers also cling to this system for comic shops while long ago discontinuing it for all other modes of retail distribution?

 

Yet the retail voices of the industry with large platforms for expression through hosted social media pages, newsletters, or long running articles in the industry press all show their unprofessionalism by decrying this straight forward business decision as some sort of death knell for new comics, comic publishing, and comic retailing. 

I just don't get it.

[Mercury Man]

I don't like Digital Comics or Books.  When Barnes and Noble closed for COVID I was going through withdrawls.   I really enjoy picking up a book every week or two.  As for Comics, I will never convert/buy/switch to Digital.  If new print comics go away, that just means I have 80+ years of back issues to pursue.   The ball is really in DC Comics hands now, lets hope they don't mess this up. 

[porcupine48]

8 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

I just don't get it.

Why is it that comic shops that carry toys aspire to order direct from the toy manufacturers (and can do so in many cases)?

Why is it that comic shops who carry games aspire to order direct from the game manufactures (and can do so in many cases)?

Why is it that comic shops who carry apparel and gift items aspire to order those items direct from the manufacturer (and can do so in many cases)?

The answer in every case is lower price and direct service.

That is how retail works.

Now - why is it that comic shops do not aspire to order direct from the publishers (and couldn't even if they tried)? Why does the comic retailing industry romanticize an outdated distribution system that hinders individual store's ability to customize their service? And why do publishers also cling to this system for comic shops while long ago discontinuing it for all other modes of retail distribution?

 

Yet the retail voices of the industry with large platforms for expression through hosted social media pages, newsletters, or long running articles in the industry press all show their unprofessionalism by decrying this straight forward business decision as some sort of death knell for new comics, comic publishing, and comic retailing. 

I just don't get it.

[Bookery]

16 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

Now - why is it that comic shops do not aspire to order direct from the publishers (and couldn't even if they tried)? Why does the comic retailing industry romanticize an outdated distribution system that hinders individual store's ability to customize their service? And why do publishers also cling to this system for comic shops while long ago discontinuing it for all other modes of retail distribution?

Maybe you would enjoy ordering from 40 different publishers, but I wouldn't.  Nobody's saying there shouldn't be more than one distributor to choose from... that's the way it was before Heroes World.  Some of us are ticked that our distributor of choice has been cut out completely, rather than simply sharing distribution with two other companies.  And those companies are untested in this capacity.  When Capital City closed and we were forced to switch to Diamond, they already had an established track record in mass-comic distribution to retailers.  But by itself, that's not even that big of an issue.  But if Diamond is compromised to the point of going out of business, there is no way there isn't going to be degrees of chaos, shipping delays, publisher failures, and confusion, at a time when most of us are just beginning to come out of lockdowns.

I'm a bit confused about "all other modes of distribution" doing it differently.  About 90% of the games product customers ask for comes from just 2 places... Games Workshop and Alliance.  When I ordered VHS movies a millennia ago, you didn't order them from each studio... you had a main distributor, and then maybe a couple of others for B-movies and offbeat stuff.  A long time ago we carried new books... I would never have done so if I had to order them from Del Rey, DAW, Avon, Pyramid, Bantam, Berkley, Fawcett, and about 2-dozen others separately!  In all of these products you had consolidated distributors at least for the main stuff.  Ordering from all of these places separately was, to me, the true outdated and clumsy model.  

You have a large number of employees.  I have just a few.  A lot of shops are one-man operations.  I can't imagine what it would be like for the latter to have to maintain a couple of dozen separate accounts, track and deal with returns for all of them, AND have time to buy and sell and process back-issues which is often a necessary ingredient to survival.  You're like Macy's... a huge operation in which ordering directly from the producers is both feasible and even cost-beneficial.  But historically most bookstores, comic shops, game stores, etc., are small understaffed small businesses for which the consolidated distributor was essentially designed with them in mind.  

[MrBedrock]

1 minute ago, Bookery said:

Maybe you would enjoy ordering from 40 different publishers, but I wouldn't.  Nobody's saying there shouldn't be more than one distributor to choose from... that's the way it was before Heroes World.  Some of us are ticked that our distributor of choice has been cut out completely, rather than simply sharing distribution with two other companies.  And those companies are untested in this capacity.  When Capital City closed and we were forced to switch to Diamond, they already had an established track record in mass-comic distribution to retailers.  But by itself, that's not even that big of an issue.  But if Diamond is compromised to the point of going out of business, there is no way there isn't going to be degrees of chaos, shipping delays, publisher failures, and confusion, at a time when most of us are just beginning to come out of lockdowns.

I'm a bit confused about "all other modes of distribution" doing it differently.  About 90% of the games product customers ask for comes from just 2 places... Games Workshop and Alliance.  When I ordered VHS movies a millennia ago, you didn't order them from each studio... you had a main distributor, and then maybe a couple of others for B-movies and offbeat stuff.  A long time ago we carried new books... I would never have done so if I had to order them from Del Rey, DAW, Avon, Pyramid, Bantam, Berkley, Fawcett, and about 2-dozen others separately!  In all of these products you had consolidated distributors at least for the main stuff.  Ordering from all of these places separately was, to me, the true outdated and clumsy model.  

You have a large number of employees.  I have just a few.  A lot of shops are one-man operations.  I can't imagine what it would be like for the latter to have to maintain a couple of dozen separate accounts, track and deal with returns for all of them, AND have time to buy and sell and process back-issues which is often a necessary ingredient to survival.  You're like Macy's... a huge operation in which ordering directly from the producers is both feasible and even cost-beneficial.  But historically most bookstores, comic shops, game stores, etc., are small understaffed small businesses for which the consolidated distributor was essentially designed with them in mind.  

First, I am so tired of trying to start a conversation about this, then being told that my opinion is irrelevant because I am too large of an operation.

Second, I am also tired of the prevailing attitude that having more than one vendor is too much work. We currently have around 300 different vendors that we can choose from. In some cases we order from a distributor, in some cases we order direct. I have worked very hard to create the opportunity to have choices. I can now use those choices to save money where I can, or save time or shipping or whatever other variable that is important. I have that choice. In the area of comic publishing i don't have that choice. Maybe you do not want that choice. It certainly sounds like very few comic retailers want that choice. It seems crazy to me that more shops wouldn't be fighting to have that choice.

[Bookery]

4 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

First, I am so tired of trying to start a conversation about this, then being told that my opinion is irrelevant because I am too large of an operation.

Who said your opinion was irrelevant? That would be nuts.  In fact, I always value your input, and was saying the other day to someone that I wish you and a few other large dealers would post more about actual business operations and concerns on here (to the extent that it's not proprietary).  That said, I can also disagree with you occasionally... and that is what I'm doing here in so far as it goes to the different needs of large and small operations.

4 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

Second, I am also tired of the prevailing attitude that having more than one vendor is too much work. We currently have around 300 different vendors that we can choose from. In some cases we order from a distributor, in some cases we order direct. I have worked very hard to create the opportunity to have choices. I can now use those choices to save money where I can, or save time or shipping or whatever other variable that is important. I have that choice. In the area of comic publishing i don't have that choice. Maybe you do not want that choice. It certainly sounds like very few comic retailers want that choice. It seems crazy to me that more shops wouldn't be fighting to have that choice.

More than one vendor is fine.  I also liked that in the "old days" we had more than one distributor to choose from, in case things weren't to our satisfaction we could switch (or even combine, as you say).  But 300 different vendors... good grief!  There's no way that is remotely feasible for anyone that can't assign multiple staff to do nothing but specialize in product orders.  And again... you say that's the way it's done with anything but comics... but it was never the way it was done with any product line I've dealt with over the years.  Two or three distributors for each type of material, yes, and maybe a handful of direct-from-manufacturer items of specialty stuff.  But never dozens, much less hundreds, of accounts to deal with.  A big department store can order in an entirely different way than can a mom-and-pop outfit.  This is not a criticism, or calling anyone irrelevant.  It's just a reality.

[MrBedrock]

15 minutes ago, Bookery said:

Who said your opinion was irrelevant? That would be nuts.  In fact, I always value your input, and was saying the other day to someone that I wish you and a few other large dealers would post more about actual business operations and concerns on here (to the extent that it's not proprietary).  That said, I can also disagree with you occasionally... and that is what I'm doing here in so far as it goes to the different needs of large and small operations.

More than one vendor is fine.  I also liked that in the "old days" we had more than one distributor to choose from, in case things weren't to our satisfaction we could switch (or even combine, as you say).  But 300 different vendors... good grief!  There's no way that is remotely feasible for anyone that can't assign multiple staff to do nothing but specialize in product orders.  And again... you say that's the way it's done with anything but comics... but it was never the way it was done with any product line I've dealt with over the years.  Two or three distributors for each type of material, yes, and maybe a handful of direct-from-manufacturer items of specialty stuff.  But never dozens, much less hundreds, of accounts to deal with.  A big department store can order in an entirely different way than can a mom-and-pop outfit.  This is not a criticism, or calling anyone irrelevant.  It's just a reality.

Sorry for the thin skin. I have just been having this conversation so many times through other outlets. It is frustrating to me for exactly the reasons you  point out. Why aren't we acting like bigger stores? Retail groups like ComicsPro have made individual vendors available to single store shops and most of the time those shops are not taking advantage. The book trade is a great example, and I assume it is an area where you see the benefits. Our terms and and service save us a ton by reordering trades through Penguin/Randon House, Simon and Shuster, Ingram, Hachette, Scholastic, etc. etc. Any shop can take advantage of this, but most do not. I get that it is more work. But the benefits far outweigh the time. And when did this become about avoiding work anyway?

None of this is directed at you, Tim. As always, thanks for the discussion. I am just frustrated with all of the outpouring of venom by the industry as a whole directed at DC. And I feel like I am the only one excited about their decision and I don't have anyone to celebrate with.

[FlyingDonut]

1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

Sorry for the thin skin. I have just been having this conversation so many times through other outlets. It is frustrating to me for exactly the reasons you  point out. Why aren't we acting like bigger stores? Retail groups like ComicsPro have made individual vendors available to single store shops and most of the time those shops are not taking advantage. The book trade is a great example, and I assume it is an area where you see the benefits. Our terms and and service save us a ton by reordering trades through Penguin/Randon House, Simon and Shuster, Ingram, Hachette, Scholastic, etc. etc. Any shop can take advantage of this, but most do not. I get that it is more work. But the benefits far outweigh the time. And when did this become about avoiding work anyway?

None of this is directed at you, Tim. As always, thanks for the discussion. I am just frustrated with all of the outpouring of venom by the industry as a whole directed at DC. And I feel like I am the only one excited about their decision and I don't have anyone to celebrate with.

@MrBedrock (and @Bookery )

- why do you think literally every other dealer I've talked with since yesterday is over the top angry with DC? Is it because people don't want change or something different? All I've ever heard from people is how terrible Diamond is - so this is getting rid of Diamond and now everyone is up in arms over it? Its just confusing.

And yes, I do believe DC will be getting out of the physical production of making monthly comics. I believe they will make monthly digital comics and then collect everything in trades, which will allow them entry into much more sales outlets. There will be a Batman book in bookstores collecting the last six  months of comics that have never been printed before. Just my two cents

[MrBedrock]

2 minutes ago, FlyingDonut said:

@MrBedrock (and @Bookery )

- why do you think literally every other dealer I've talked with since yesterday is over the top angry with DC? Is it because people don't want change or something different? All I've ever heard from people is how terrible Diamond is - so this is getting rid of Diamond and now everyone is up in arms over it? Its just confusing.

And yes, I do believe DC will be getting out of the physical production of making monthly comics. I believe they will make monthly digital comics and then collect everything in trades, which will allow them entry into much more sales outlets. There will be a Batman book in bookstores collecting the last six  months of comics that have never been printed before. Just my two cents

I think most retailers are upset because of the lack of a clear message from DC on why this is happening. I too am very confused on why DC refuses to defend themselves from the tremendous amount of vitriol being spewed at them. Having talked with them in the last day they say there are legal concerns and they are taking the high road. They also say that the memo that Diamond released on Friday in regards to the ending of the agreement is not anywhere near the entire truth. So all that most retailers see is 1) additional work setting up a new account, 2) additional shipping costs, 3) a change to new comic book day, 4) placing orders with a new distributor who, in the case of DCBS, is viewed as the enemy, 5) the potential loss of a business partner whom all shops have been tied for 25 years and 6) a bunch of other retailers screaming and hollering. It is very hard in this atmosphere to have a dissenting voice.

Dan, if you really knew the economics of digital comics you would have a very different view of the future of print. Digital is not a significant revenue stream for any of the comic book publishers, and wont be at any time in the foreseeable future. We may see fewer monthly titles, but not because they are entirely going to digital. In fact DC has been aggressively using digital to drive sales to brick and mortar stores of any kind because print is so much more profitable for them. That was one of the reasons behind their deal with Walmart. I think DC wants to change some of the formats they ship - especially in light of the success Black Label and the Teen GNs have had. Those also have had greater success through the book market than in traditional comic stores. The industry is changing. The formats are changing. But Diamond just spent tons of loot on a sorting and shipping system that is geared toward the simply floppy comic and I think they are very resistant to any changes in the physical format of comic publishing. I also think many comic retailers who are tied to the collectible/back issue style of comic selling are scared to try carrying too much that is out of their comfort zone.

[Prince Namor]

4 hours ago, Myowncollector said:

Great point! Totally the same thing. I am sure music stores are the same. Video games will probably follow. These are media entertainment things. Easiest hassle free cheapest way will win out. Majority of people haven't rented a movie or bought a cd since Netflix and Napster. Most people aren't bagging and slabbing or speculating on CDs dvds. People do collect video games, but mostly vintage ones. I dont know of people buying 50 copies of the latest call of duty for speculation or picking out the best copies to send off for grading.

Printed comics aren't going anywhere. They are still profitable and a good marketing advertising tool. Maybe dc won't be producing them but that is because they are poorly ran. 

 

Amazing Spider-man

1993: 592,442 Average Total Paid Circulation

1995: 234,290 Average Total Paid Circulation

2002: 122,572 Average Total Paid Circulation

2008: 105,948 Average Total Paid Circulation

2019:   82,300 Average Total Paid Circulation

And as the sale of floppies decreases ever year while the sale of tpb's goes UP every year, and superhero comics (the majority of Marvel and DC's output) are now outsold by other genre's (see below), and digital comics continue to gain ground, and the profitability of Marvel Publishing doesn't seem to be getting better... yeah, no reason to worry.

CGC slabbers and speculators are going to save the day? Whoo-k.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robsalkowitz/2019/10/08/surprising-new-data-shows-comic-readers-are-leaving-superheroes-behind/#5d3de3954d68

 

[Prince Namor]

17 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

4) placing orders with a new distributor who, in the case of DCBS, is viewed as the enemy,

I'm sure many retailers are scared to death of the exposure this'll give DCBS (it's no secret here). There'll be a lot of people who figure, why pay more at the shop when I can just buy from DCBS at the same discount the shop gets? You couldn't do that with Diamond because of how they're setup.

[kimik]

18 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

I think most retailers are upset because of the lack of a clear message from DC on why this is happening. I too am very confused on why DC refuses to defend themselves from the tremendous amount of vitriol being spewed at them. Having talked with them in the last day they say there are legal concerns and they are taking the high road. They also say that the memo that Diamond released on Friday in regards to the ending of the agreement is not anywhere near the entire truth. So all that most retailers see is 1) additional work setting up a new account, 2) additional shipping costs, 3) a change to new comic book day, 4) placing orders with a new distributor who, in the case of DCBS, is viewed as the enemy, 5) the potential loss of a business partner whom all shops have been tied for 25 years and 6) a bunch of other retailers screaming and hollering. It is very hard in this atmosphere to have a dissenting voice.

I have talked to the owners of two LCSs today, and they had the same response - the shift away from Diamond is not a big deal since they already use multiple distributors for products. Their main concern is whether the shipping cost will be higher, but otherwise they are fine with DC moving to different distributor as long as they get the new books on time. They are also hoping for better service - both stores get shorted on orders and do not receive variants they qualify for with Diamond on a regular basis (even the larger one that has been around since the early 80s). 

[thehumantorch]

11 hours ago, Hieronymus Bosch said:

The industry has kept digital sales numbers secret for the last 5 years, to milk the print system as long as they can. According to Comichron, the last numbers we have are in 2015, not including subscriptions sales, they were at $90 million. That's roughly 10% of what print comics' total for the year ($940 million including bookstore, book club and newsstand sales, but excluding library sales) and nearly 16% of what Diamond's North American sales were for the year (Comics, GN's and Magazines).

That number of digital sales has very obviously gone up since then.

Will DC take a hit in losing some customers who abandon their monthly titles? Yes. Will they MORE than make up for it by cutting out the middle man, eliminating shipping and operating cost, and increasing profit per issue?

Very much so. 

This is the first big step toward the elimination of monthly print comics.

And thus... the comic book shop...

I fear you may be right.  To be fair paper publishing has been dying for years and nothing will change that.

[Domo Arigato]

6 hours ago, Hieronymus Bosch said:

Truth of the matter is,15 years ago there were 9000 Blockbuster Video stores in the world, now there are ZERO*

Not quite.

Last Blockbuster store.

[WolverineX]

2 minutes ago, Domo Arigato said:

Not quite.

Last Blockbuster store.

I was just htinking about that.

[ADAMANTIUM]

I'm not sure what is all the hubbub 

But point of interest 

LCS said that they'll wait till Monday to give their take, after everything settles....

They only mentioned it to say everything will be ok, so I didn't follow up with all the links...

So again, maybe that helps idk

 

[evilskip]

I don't know d##k about Diamond and running an LCS. But I can recount my observations of what was going on with our small LCS when it was still open, and his experiences with Diamond.I was usually in the store when the owner opened the box from Diamond. First off, I was surprised that the books were just tossed in a box, allowed to slide around and get bent. It also seemed that every week he was either shorted on several books and charged for them, yet have 7 copies of another title that he didn't order or want and wasn't charged for. He would get on the phone with Diamond and he would just be exasperated in less than 15 minutes.He complained that Diamond was more interested in selling him expensive software for ordering, but he only had like 30 pull customers for comics and couldn't justify the cash outlay. I don't know if he ordered his magic cards from them or not, but he never had a problem with those. They did better financially with toys, statues and cards than they did with comics.

A lot of shops only order for their pull customers. There is a decent sized shop 50 miles from here that will sell ONLY to pull customers. I used to drop in once a month and buy $70 to $100 worth of dollar books,back issues and supplies. Sorry. No sale now, so #@$# them. They can survive without me.

Remember when you could walk into a store and see aisles of dvds and blu rays you could browse through? Times change for better or worse.