The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Malacoda]

On 9/18/2022 at 12:41 PM, Garystar said:

I’ve got several of these (all cents) and they aren’t re-sealable so owner must have very carefully opened. 

Makes sense. Everything you read about them says they were sealed. It does make you wonder about the process at World. They would have to have been ordering the bags along with the comic order and then sealing them up with their own returns. Maybe they came with a one-time peelable strip, so once sealed couldn't be reopened (except verrrrry slowly and carefully).  Thinking about it, that would probably have to be the case, because whatever Curtis were doing, World could do too. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/18/2022 at 12:41 PM, Garystar said:

I’ve got several of these (all cents) and they aren’t re-sealable so owner must have very carefully opened. 

All the bagged comics I've ever owned have been heat sealed too.

This eBay lot has a different bag to the ones we're looking at, but has this to say:

"These bags were not made to be sealed by Marvel. They kind of open and close like a sandwich bag by folding in the plastic."

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275393038745?hash=item401eb44999:g:~zoAAOSwhORiwirz&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoITVKNOfPnnl6U49Or0Xa56Wv8HWnJOP%2F95Id9KZlIoQmN63kuDJMGYTlDs1UlxaPLcxJeRzQjK%2B6XIyw874DyJ2K2qOVBOchiz4XpOj1FBEZp8BLsgfjGL6K6%2FNlAoOTJfmW%2BUY%2Bi0R%2F8QInXL2bi0boriIBBGpcAKrYqUlFXyC0ux%2BRNhJkPT79R9ZUkNg%2FMqrBqzuXH4UqcIOrzpqsgA%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-awz4jqYA

 

Is it my eyes, or can you see what looks like that sandwich flap, running half way down across the bag?

[Malacoda]

On 9/18/2022 at 1:24 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Is it my eyes, or can you see what looks like that sandwich flap, running half way down across the bag?

Looks like it.  They're probably an earlier version of these kind of comic bags. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/18/2022 at 1:49 PM, Malacoda said:

Looks like it.  They're probably an earlier version of these kind of comic bags. 

Nothing like those at all Rich, no, as they have a resealable sticky strip, and the old 'sandwich' bags have an overlapping, side sealed flap. An 'in, under and up' job. I just made up a new phrase there.

[Garystar]

In hand the bags are definitely not re-sealable, they are heat sealed. There feels like there is a plastic “flap” within the plastic header. It feels like plastic on one side is longer so this is folded over the shorter piece and heat sealed. Can’t really show on a picture. 

[Malacoda]

On 6/26/2020 at 2:07 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Aside of documenting our trusty UKPVs, there are a number of other avenues available to explore in relation to the history of US comics that were brought to and distributed in the UK. For example, one splendid chap I know (not a member here alas) is currently studying in some depth the ‘non-distributed’ (ND) phenomenon that UK collectors of a certain age will be familiar with (i.e. those books that we did not receive in the UK at the time of publication in either cents or pence for numerous reasons). I considered looking into this myself way back but one of the obstacles I found was the inability to prove certain things to any meaningful degree. Decades after the event, and with all books now freely available via online channels, it is hard to say retrospectively with any certainty that a particular book was definitely not distributed.  But I wish my fellow history enthusiast well and look forward to the results of his research which I’m sure will be an interesting read regardless.

You know, given that the thread actually starts with these words, it's almost a license to go into insane depths of detail and speculation about ND. 

I say 'almost' but you know what's coming next, right? 

[Malacoda]

Silver Surfer 10

OK, so what the Hell happened to Silver Surfer #10? (this is for you, Gary…not that you ever asked for it, obviously….)

Things to keep in mind:

Evidence indicates that the cents issues which came over with the PV’s from April 1969 to July 1971 came over directly alongside them in the same months (changes in price and currency format tie up with the titles which had no PV’s and also the stamps stop dead when the PV’s transfer to World). 

There are some comics that were non-D clearly by intention, but there are others that equally clearly were supposed to be distributed but something happened (e.g. TTA #62, FF #80 and our old friend Silver Surfer #10). Doc Strange #179 may also be on that list, but I suspect not. More on that later. 
 

[Malacoda]

Theory Number #1

1)      The first thing to note is that the Surfer was hanging ten off the print run: check out this table of on-sale dates and tell me which title, if any, had the greatest potential to miss the UK distribution deadline, to literally miss the boat (by the way, Captain Savage was ND, so no help there).  

2)      I don’t know why the Surfer was originally last (maybe because they were all GS and therefore square bound so stapled differently and had the covers attached differently?). It’s possible that when they set the print runs up, they did the GS comics last, but for whatever reason he has the last on-sale date.

3)      As long as he was GS, there would be no PV’s, leaving T&P to stamp the comics as they did with the annuals, Marvel Tales 1 & 2, Marvel CIC and Fantasy Masterpieces (for the most part).

4)      From issue 7, the Surfer went monthly, but this didn’t affect ‘the UK batch’ because there was no ‘UK batch’, we just got cents copies.  This is where the bonkers relationship between the on-sale date and the cover date comes from.  To give you a flavour for the knife-edge the Surfer was on compared to other titles, this is his run compared to Spidey for the same months (lead time in days from on sale date to 1st day of cover month). 

5)      From issue #8, the Surfer went down to a 15c standard size, this was demonstrably completely unexpected.  There is no mention of it coming on the Bullpen Bulletins in issue #7 though they were clearly desperately short of material that month and no mention on the letters page – one of the responses to the letters even mentions the number of pages in the comics and doesn’t reference the upcoming change to the Surfer the very next month.  

6)      Then at the end of issue 8 there is note from Stan explaining the unexpected change, which he literally says caught them with their pants down.

7)      Stan says that this is because we, the readers, demanded that the Surfer go monthly that very month. I suspect it’s more likely an issue with the distributor.  This is the exact month that it flips from IND to Curtis, so, messily, half the titles are distributed by IND and the other half by Curtis. The Surfer, being at the end of the print run, was conversely one of the first to flip.

8)      So this means, as Marvel didn’t know it was happening, and T&P certainly didn’t know it was happening, there was no time to get the Surfer added to the PV print run. As you can see, the uniquely tight gap between the on-sale date and the cover month date meant that with the last-minute decision on Surfer 8, number 9 would presumably already have been in the print schedule by the time the conversation with T&P about a PV took place, so the first issue of the Surfer which SHOULD have been a PV was…all together now…. number 10! (Keep in mind that half the titles were PV and half were cents stamps, so it was by no means a given that the Surfer would be a PV).

So why did it fail to happen? Don’t know.  But look at the dates.  The Surfer had always been printed last, was always printed tightest against its release date, and had always been excluded from the UKPV print run, so it wasn’t like it got knocked off the PV schedule, it just failed to be added to it in time and if any title was going to miss the boat, it was always going to be the Silver Surfer.

The really interesting thing is that it seems that no PV’s meant no cents stamps issues either.  Why?  You would imagine that with the PV’s not getting printed, they would have made up the order with a ton of cents copies, but they didn’t. 

This is how I think it happened: 

1)      We know that distribution is split exactly down the middle at this point: there are 10 titles which get PV’s which then get a load of (seemingly variable in quantity) cents issues added to the order to top it up and there are 10 titles which have cents issues only, to be stamped by T&P.  Obviously, these are not part of the ‘top up’ list as they are all cents copies to start with and there would be no difference between the main order and the ‘top up’…. they’re all just cents copies.

2)      Let’s imagine that as two job lists at Sparta Distribution: (1) the cents only list, where the whole order is made up of cents copies and (2) the PV + cents copies list, where the order is based off the PV print run and then cents issues are added. This would definitely be two separate lists, as List One would be wholly the US domestic order and List Two would be wholly the export order, parcelled up and headed straight for the docks.

3)      With the Surfer, from issues 1-9, he’s on List One: there’s a standing order to put (let’s say) 8,000 cents copies into the UK crate because there were no PV’s.

4)      The Surfer has just changed from bi-monthly to monthly creating the unprecedently tight distribution schedule. Then when he drops overnight to a standard 20 pages, they decide to do PV’s from issue 10 so the cents-to-be-stamped order is, obviously, cancelled and he’s deleted from List One.

5)       Then, due to the time crunch / a scheduling error / general confusion caused by the change in size / price / frequency of publication / whatever, he doesn’t get added to List Two in time for the PV print run.

6)      As the cents top up copies are a function of List Two, he doesn’t get these either.

7)      As he’s now on neither list, there are no Silver Surfers shipped to the UK. Later, when people are scratching their heads saying ‘why are there so many Silver Surfers left over this month?’ they realise and send a wad of the leftovers in next month’s crate, which is why a handful of them show up as seaside specials after the event.

This may all be coincidence, but then you have to believe that the change in size and price, which demonstrably caught everyone on the hop, had nothing to do with it, the change from bi-monthly to monthly had nothing to do with it, the flip from cents copies to PV’s had nothing to do with it and the fact that the Surfer was the last title printed each month had nothing to do with it.  The balance of probabilities would perhaps suggest otherwise. 

 

[Malacoda]

Theory Number #2 

Because I haven’t taken up enough of your time banging on about this one single comic. 

It might be deliberately ND.

I think that during the 3^rd hiatus, with the expansion of Marvel titles, T&P found the flexibility of having a cents-only order that didn’t have to be carved in stone 3 months in advance very attractive. However, there were enormous benefits to having the PV’s: the time saving of not having to individually stamp tens of thousands of comics is not hard to calculate.  Also the reduced wage bill, reduced mess, space saving, lack of confusing dual pricing for newsagents, the list goes on.  I also think that a key difference between 1967 and 1969 is that when the hiatus ended, everything had been transferred to Sparta, who could rattle off a few trillion PV’s faster and probably more cheaply than ECP.

The solution, obviously, was to have both.  Have a core order of PV’s for the core titles and top those up with cents copies and just have cents copies for the titles where the demand might be lower or more variable.

But I think they went one better.  I think they started using ND as well. I mean, that’s not really a different method to varying the size of the order, it’s just ‘varying’ it down to zero.

Everyone who's still awake:  I don’t think so, Rich.  I think the ND’s were the usual ups and mis-fires in distribution, printing issues, batches that missed the boat, titles that weren’t ordered, etc etc etc 

But here is the thing that is very telling: during the last 28 months of T&P Marvels, there are 36 titles comprising 495 issues. So that’s a pretty decent sample base.  

How many titles have ND issues?  14.

How many of those titles had PV’s?   None.  

And how many of them are reprint titles? None.  

Every single time there’s a ND, it’s from one of the titles that has cents only issues.

Kid Colt, Rawhide Kid, TOS/ Cap, Captain Savage, Nick Fury, Dr Strange (remember, I said 179 would be back), Tower of Shadows, Chamber of Darkness, Where Monsters Dwell, Where Creatures Roam and even the first issues of Amazing Adventures, Astonishing Tales and Conan. 

All of these titles have ND issues and every one of them is (1) an original-material title (i.e. not a reprint) and (2) was not in the PV print run prior to going ND. 495 out of 495 is an undeniable pattern (actually, technically, it’s 494 out of 495 because the first issue of Where Monsters Dwell is reprints, but I’m pretty sure that was not supposed to be distributed – it was a last minute substitution because Captain Marvel was cancelled unexpectedly).   

Again, it could just be 494 coincidences, but I would say it’s a pretty undeniable pattern.  And Silver Surfer 10 was the first issue which should have been a PV but wasn’t.  It does fit that pattern.

[Malacoda]

Conclusion:

That said (a) there are no titles that have one ND issue (unless it’s number one) (b) if you were manipulating the order, why pick the Surfer?  Doc Strange and Nick Fury were both cancelled from this month, and both had just had 2 issues ND, yet they were both still distributed in November and the Surfer was selected for ND?  4 out of the last 6 issues of Captain America were ND – why stop there and ND a single issue of the Surfer? It makes no sense.

I think the first theory is correct.  There is just so much mess and such a suddenly foreshortened deadline around SS #10, I can easily see how it would happen by mistake and it makes no sense as a conscious decision. 

So now that I’ve conclusively proven Silver Surfer #10 was ND and why, how long do you reckon we will need to wait before someone turns up a stamped copy? I reckon a week at the most! 

[Malacoda]

If I ever, you know, go a little bit too far down the rabbit hole, you would tell me, wouldn't you, guys? 

[OtherEric]

On 9/20/2022 at 7:45 PM, Malacoda said:

If I ever, you know, go a little bit too far down the rabbit hole, you would tell me, wouldn't you, guys? 

If you ever go a LITTLE bit too far, we’ll let you know.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/21/2022 at 3:34 AM, Malacoda said:

I don't know, long detailed posts, facts and speculation, self-deprecation, tables with OS dates, a dab of humour and a "one will turn up now" sign off. I could be reading one of my own posts!

Nicely done Richmond, as usual.

A few thoughts / observations, if only to show we're awake.

The actual dates on these comic examples imply the lead in time might not have been as strict as the OS dates imply:

                         16th Sep                                                      16th Sep                                                   18th Sep

Or, indeed, the suggested order of printing.

Some interesting distribution comments in this blog that I stumbled on, while looking for SS#10 stuff:

https://kidr77.blogspot.com/2019/02/silver-surfer-14-facsimile-edition.html

It's fairly recent, so there may be some knowledgeable contacts you can tap up.

If I'm understanding you right - it's early, and I haven't had much coffee yet - why would SS#10 being printed last in the title batch have any bearing on UK ND status anyway? I could understand a comic not being printed in a certain way if the instruction from the bosses came prior to its printing - say, mid-way through a given cover months production. But wouldn't the SS#10 just go in the next shipment? I've used On Sale dates to good effect when trying to establish a cut off point for the production of price variants, but SS #10 is a just a title in scope for sending to the UK as a cents copy. If it missed a van / boat, wouldn't it just go in the next one? Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

Here's another theory. Silver Surfer #10 was distributed in the UK, but T&P forgot to stamp it. If you look at some original owner collections, there it often is, unstamped among it's stamped / UKPV cousins and looking just as shabby:

T&P stamped millions of comics. Is it likely, in all that activity, over all those years, that one operational muck up could lead to a pile of the same issue going out unstamped? Hugely likely, I would have thought.

How did this chap's apparently of the time bound volume get its #10?

Every other copy in that 1-18 book is either a UKPV or stamped copy (link below). It could have been made up at any point of course, but it looks to me like an original owners run, lovingly bound.

https://www.excaliburauctions.com/auction/lot/lot-105---silver-surfer-lot---196970---a-hard-back/?lot=20792&so=4&st=silver surfer 10&sto=0&au=&ef=&et=&ic=False&sd=1&pp=48&pn=1&g=1

Another theory is the batch could have got lost, stolen or damaged at any one of the many points it would have made on its journey from the printers to T&P. 

Another theory is the bloke who's job it was to load the books on the van forgot to put the last batch on. That last batch was SS#10. Panicking that he might lose his job (he was new, you see), he took the batch to the incinerator / pulping room and no one was any the wiser. When T&P queried it's absence, Ethel spotted it, they blamed the blokes on the boat. They denied it of course, and accused T&P of.....

How many actual collector recollections do we rely on that a book like this was 'ND' in the UK by the way? A handful? What if it was just not available in their area, and they were the only ones taking notice? What if they are misremembering? It was 50 years ago. Duncan McA has loads of books noted as ND on his site, which were most definitely D. I've not been able to find a single stamped SS#10. But can we say with certainty that that means it didn't come? And if it didn't come - which, notwithstanding my arguing for the sake of it counter arguments is almost certainly right - are there not a plethora of other, more mundane reasons why that might have been the case?

Anyway, great thought-provoking stuff as always. I used to post big long theories like this years ago, and often got nothing back. I still do today. At least you have me snapping at your heels, testing the theories Rich. 

[themagicrobot]

As the sheer detail of posts from @Malacoda and @Get Marwood & I often make my brain hurt it's time for the Interlude. This comic is outside the timeframe of this thread but is the only time I have EVER seen £1.25 referred to as 125p. I guess they just didn't have the £££££££ symbol available??

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by themagicrobot

[Garystar]

Lovely to see a dissertation on my favourite comic SS #10. 
As a youngster I’d always had comics starting with playhour which my mum used to buy me to teach me to read. I then mid/late 60s progressed to Lion and read the odd Superman and Superboy comic which were all rather silly but aimed at the age I was then. I tried a few Batman comics after seeing bits of the TV show but the comics were too advanced for me. 
A few years later for my birthday in 1970 an aunt gave me the 1969 UK Marvel annual;

I was enthralled with with stories but I was also fascinated by one illustration on the inside cover, he didn’t look like the other costumed superheros, he was called the Silver Surfer and I knew nothing else about him;

Skip forward to 1973 on holiday when I came across the first US Marvels I’d ever seen. I bought Thor 172, 173 and Cap America 122 because I was aware of them from the UK annual and alongside was Silver Surfer 10 - I was about to find out about the character I had been fascinated with for so long. 
I read the Thor comics and threw them away, I read SS#10 and was hooked. I instantly became a collector, retrieved the Thors from the bin and went back to the gift shop the next day and bought some more. I haven’t stopped collecting since but if it hadn’t been for SS#10 I probably wouldn’t have ever started collecting.

I’ve bought and sold SS#10 many times and always take a look at any copies I see for sale, I don’t recall ever seeing a stamped copy. I currently  have three copies, my collection copy;

“nostalgia box” copy

and CGC copy;

Many many years ago I even had the image tattooed;

 

I don’t think I’ve added anything to the UK distribution knowledge but have enjoyed reminiscing about SS#10 - a comic which has had an enormous impact on my life. 

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, Garystar said:

Lovely to see a dissertation on my favourite comic SS #10. 
As a youngster I’d always had comics starting with playhour which my mum used to buy me to teach me to read. I then mid/late 60s progressed to Lion and read the odd Superman and Superboy comic which were all rather silly but aimed at the age I was then. I tried a few Batman comics after seeing bits of the TV show but the comics were too advanced for me. 
A few years later for my birthday in 1970 an aunt gave me the 1969 UK Marvel annual;

I was enthralled with with stories but I was also fascinated by one illustration on the inside cover, he didn’t look like the other costumed superheros, he was called the Silver Surfer and I knew nothing else about him;

Skip forward to 1973 on holiday when I came across the first US Marvels I’d ever seen. I bought Thor 172, 173 and Cap America 122 because I was aware of them from the UK annual and alongside was Silver Surfer 10 - I was about to find out about the character I had been fascinated with for so long. 
I read the Thor comics and threw them away, I read SS#10 and was hooked. I instantly became a collector, retrieved the Thors from the bin and went back to the gift shop the next day and bought some more. I haven’t stopped collecting since but if it hadn’t been for SS#10 I probably wouldn’t have ever started collecting.

I’ve bought and sold SS#10 many times and always take a look at any copies I see for sale, I don’t recall ever seeing a stamped copy. I currently  have three copies, my collection copy;

“nostalgia box” copy

and CGC copy;

Many many years ago I even had the image tattooed;

 

I don’t think I’ve added anything to the UK distribution knowledge but have enjoyed reminiscing about SS#10 - a comic which has had an enormous impact on my life. 

 

 

Brilliant 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, Garystar said:

nostalgia box” copy

Another September 16th date stamp 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, Garystar said:

Many many years ago I even had the image tattooed;

Now that's dedication, Gary.

 

 

 

 

It's not on your arse, is it? 

[Garystar]

On 9/21/2022 at 12:39 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Now that's dedication, Gary.

 

 

 

 

It's not on your arse, is it? 

That’s my face! You wouldn’t want a cosmic powered sh1te would you. 

[Malacoda]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:46 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

The actual dates on these comic examples imply the lead in time might not have been as strict as the OS dates imply:

Yup, good point. Though we have no idea what these stamps actually mean, it seems bloody unlikely they're retroactive, so the on sale date may not be reliable.