The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Malacoda]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:46 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Some interesting distribution comments in this blog that I stumbled on, while looking for SS#10 stuff:

Thanks for this. I will pursue. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Malacoda

[Malacoda]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:46 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

why would SS#10 being printed last in the title batch have any bearing on UK ND status anyway?

It wouldn't necessarily.  It's more the other way round.  If the Surfer was seemingly printed in the middle of the batch, prior to a whole bunch of other titles which were distributed, you would pretty much have to assert that he got missed off for some other reason e.g. there was a whole pile of Silver Surfer 10's sitting there waiting to go but they got misplaced.  If that had happened, they would surely have sent them later. If they were PV's pretty much definitely (though your Rawhide Kid issues would beg to differ).  

The point is really that a counter-argument could be "aha, well, ASM, FF ,Thor, Hulk and Millie Goes To The Betty Ford Clinic all had on sale dates after SS #10, so how come they caught the boat?". The fact that he's last in the line removes that argument and makes it a possibility. 

I've got a load more work to do US vs UK sales dates.  In the 70's we all remember that the comics arrived and left all grouped together by calendar month.  Yes, there were stragglers and odd-bods, but what NONE of us remember is that every month, half the titles were cover dated for that month and half of them were the previous month.   In the 60's, it seems less clear.  It seems more sporadic and collector's memories are all different together, if you know what I mean. 

I suspect that this is partly related to differences in printing & shipping, but mainly because T&P and World were completely different animals. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/21/2022 at 7:24 PM, Malacoda said:

Yes, there were stragglers and odd-bods, but what NONE of us remember is that every month, half the titles were cover dated for that month and half of them were the previous month.

Eh?

If the logic of that concept was applied to the overall cover month output that included SS#10, the end of the run US scenario wouldn't apply as the van would be departing mid way through - wouldn't it?

And again, even if every Marvel comic cover dated September 1969 apart from SS#10 was printed and put on the van, and the van didn't wait for it, why wouldn't it have just have been the first pile to go on the next months van - thereby creating your UK 'half this month, half the other' scenario?

And why Whitechapel!

[Malacoda]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:46 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Here's another theory. Silver Surfer #10 was distributed in the UK, but T&P forgot to stamp it. If you look at some original owner collections, there it often is, unstamped among it's stamped / UKPV cousins and looking just as shabby:

 

On 9/21/2022 at 8:46 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

How did this chap's apparently of the time bound volume get its #10?

No. 

No no no no no no no. 

I'm disagreeing with you in case that wasn't clear. 

If there were a 100 copies of SS #10 for sale on UK ebay, sold by guys with descriptions like 'old comic for sale - clearing out my attic' and he was selling it along with 4 years of the Beano, a pair of moonboots (hardly worn) and a steering wheel for a 1973 Ford Cortina I would definitely say that this indicates that SS #10 came over in quantity and is out there among there general populace.  But there are 2 copies of SS 10 in the UK on ebay, one by the Atomic Ninja's Comic Store and the other by Global Nostalgia. Only collectors have this issue. 

And, to underline the point, your poster boy is a guy who has Silver Surfers bound in hardback leather editions.

Seriously, do we believe that this guy would not have got a copy of Silver Surfer 10 unless it was on the spinner rack at Bert's Mags, & Bags? 

This guy is the collector to end all collectors.  He's probably THE Collector. He makes Gary look like he's not trying hard enough.  I would say that the very limited availability of this comic and the people who own it are one of the better indicators that it did not get distributed.  

Edited September 21, 2022 by Malacoda

[Malacoda]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:20 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Eh?

If the logic of that concept was applied to the overall cover month output that included SS#10, the end of the run US scenario wouldn't apply as the van would be departing mid way through - wouldn't it?

And again, even if every Marvel comic cover dated September 1969 apart from SS#10 was printed and put on the van, and the van didn't wait for it, why wouldn't it have just have been the first pile to go on the next months van - thereby creating your UK 'half this month, half the other' scenario?

And why Whitechapel!

Just to tidy up my syntax, I mean the fact that nobody remembers it like that is because it didn't happen like that.  Somewhere along the way. despite each cover date month having between 4 and 7 different on sale dates in the US, they all rocked up at my newsagents at the same time (at least that's how I and others remember it).  The 60's seems more mixed. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:55 PM, Malacoda said:

 

No. 

No no no no no no no. 

I'm disagreeing with you in case that wasn't clear. 

So you're saying you agree with me?

On 9/21/2022 at 8:55 PM, Malacoda said:

But there are 2 copies of SS 10 in the UK on ebay, one by the Atomic Ninja's Comic Store and the other by Global Nostalgia.

How many number 9s are there?

[Malacoda]

On 9/21/2022 at 9:07 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

How many number 9s are there?

I think 4 or 5...but there are 23 copies of no 1 which is interesting considering no 1 was squarebound, so much more prone to destruction and a new title and cost a whopping 1/9, you'd think no 10 and later, normal bound, cheaper priced issues would have a much, much higher incidence of survival. 

Is this because people knew number ones were collectible at this point?  The Surfer was also the first title started at Sparta, so superior quality to previous squarebound issues. 

[Malacoda]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:46 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

How many actual collector recollections do we rely on that a book like this was 'ND' in the UK by the way? A handful? What if it was just not available in their area, and they were the only ones taking notice? What if they are misremembering? It was 50 years ago. Duncan McA has loads of books noted as ND on his site, which were most definitely D. I've not been able to find a single stamped SS#10. But can we say with certainty that that means it didn't come?

Indeed.  And this is one that Duncan is adamant was ND. Alan Austin, interestingly, does not list it as so, but he also doesn't list it as 'scarce' which is his norm and I would say this definitely counts as scarcer than the average, so I don't think it was on his radar. Obviously, you can't ever prove a negative. Even if you found the actual shipping manifest from 1969, you could only say that it was missing from the manifest, it doesn't prove it wasn't in the crate.  But here's my take: there does seem to be a dearth of this issue.  If one wanted to believe it was distributed then one would have to hypothesize that there was some reason why ALL, maybe 8k to 20k copies, the stamped copies and PV's disappeared without trace and this is pretty much the only comic of its era to which that happened.  Occam's Razor would suggest one incidence of them not being printed is more likely than 20,000 incidences of them being binned & destroyed. The version of events where it was not distributed but some randos came over later seems to fit Gary's experience, the volumes that are around now, the memories of people like Duncan and the fact that, try as we may, we can't find a single bloody copy of it out there anywhere. 

[Malacoda]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:46 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Anyway, great thought-provoking stuff as always. I used to post big long theories like this years ago, and often got nothing back. I still do today. At least you have me snapping at your heels, testing the theories Rich. 

.....and thank you for the considered, thoughtful push back.  You don't get diamonds without some pressure.  Ultimately we all do this for ourselves, but I agree with you, when you post something that you think should be of interest to a particular group, and it's met with silence, it does make you wonder if you're barking up the wrong tree.  Or just barking.  Thank God for this little padded cell of like-minded nutters. 

[Malacoda]

On 9/21/2022 at 12:32 PM, Garystar said:

I don’t think I’ve added anything to the UK distribution knowledge but have enjoyed reminiscing about SS#10 - a comic which has had an enormous impact on my life. 

Blimey O'Reilly.  When I posted that, I started with 'this is for you, Gary' but I had no idea how much it was for you.  

Thank you for sharing that story.  I think of all comics, if you discover the Surfer at a young age, he has the potential to really make you bond. When I read 'the Super Heroes' at the age of nine, I was enthralled by the Surfer - for some reason I thought the X men were silly and did not read them. Imagine my delight when I finally realised how good they were and had a whole run to catch up on. Odd really as I'm sure the reading age for the Surfer is well above the early X men. 

Thanks for all pics as well. 

And above all, thanks for not posting those 17 ink stamped ones that we agreed not to tell Steve about. 

[Malacoda]

On 9/21/2022 at 8:46 AM, themagicrobot said:

I guess they just didn't have the £££££££ symbol available??

Might actually be the case. By the 80's they would have been typesetting on computer keyboards - US keyboards don't have the £ symbol, you have to hold down multiple buttons to get it, but if every UK comic you'd ever seen was a figure with a p after it, maybe this looked right. 

[Kevin.J]

On 9/22/2022 at 1:13 AM, Malacoda said:

I was enthralled by the Surfer - for some reason I thought the X men were silly and did not read them.

I could have quite easily wrote this, the difference is that, I still do not really like the X-men

The common thing between these two titles is that when I was skint in the 80s, I sold all my Surfers as a complete set and all my X-men and that was enough to get my bills paid, I still regret it.

I have long since replaced them all but will never get them back in the grades that they were.

No pics of my originals, so I can only dream at how good they were.

Thats why I never sell anything 

Like Gary, I guess I have become a bit Surfer obsessive over the years too.

Heres a Pence copy, just to keep it honest.

Not sure how many compete Surfer sets I have, but let's say a few.

I will have a look for #10s tomorrow, well you never know  

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Kevin.J

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/22/2022 at 3:51 AM, Kevin.J said:

I will have a look for #10s tomorrow, well you never know  

 

Wouldn't we all die laughing if.....

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, Malacoda said:

.....and thank you for the considered, thoughtful push back.  You don't get diamonds without some pressure.  Ultimately we all do this for ourselves, but I agree with you, when you post something that you think should be of interest to a particular group, and it's met with silence, it does make you wonder if you're barking up the wrong tree.  Or just barking.  Thank God for this little padded cell of like-minded nutters. 

Well, you put the effort in so I like to at least give some reaction as I know what it's like to be left hanging after spending so long studying something. You won the argument hands down by the way, Rich. 

[themagicrobot]

Here goes another Interlude. I was in urgent need of a good laugh today and got it thanks to the link @Get Marwood & I provided at https://kidr77.blogspot.com/2019/02/silver-surfer-14-facsimile-edition.html

The comments below the post are fab. There seems to be an obsession with "ballast" which maybe did happen in the 1950s and early 1960s mostly for mens mags and pulps I would have thought. It certainly wasn't a good business model that would have got your comics onto spinner racks in the correct monthly order now is it. And US Mads coming to the UK as ballast? Possibly a few but unlikely. We had our own version of Mad. Perhaps I shouldn't repost comments from somewhere else but as there are only 5 people reading this I don't see the harm. What do we make of Neither Marvel or DC shipped to the UK in the 60's and early 70's both had reprint deals with British and Australian publishers for their material. Unsold copies were sold via T&P some UK prices were printed on covers at their request.

comments:

1 February 2019 at 16:26
Terranova47 said...
Nice to see the two versions side by side. Of course your original copy has 1/- as the price which means it has less value in the States as the one with the US price. Even though printed on the same presses at the same time, the change of black plate for the cover repels US buyers.

I remember a comic convention in NYC back in the 70's when UK dealers had issue one of Howard the Duck which was much sought after by US collectors until they saw the UK price. The dealers couldn't give them away and people were paying $20 for the US cover.

1 February 2019 at 16:35
Kid said...
I have duplicates of some issues where one has the UK price replacing the US one, and the other has the US price, but also a T&P (Thorpe & Porter) circular stamp with the UK price. Would US collectors regard the latter as collectable, T47?

'70s Marvel comics also had a 'Marvel All-Colour Comics' banner instead of a 'Marvel Comics Group' one, to distinguish them from the UK b&w weeklies. (As if anyone could ever confuse the two.)

1 February 2019 at 18:45
Terranova47 said...
The T&P rubber stamp price would heavily lower the value of any US comic value as would the purple/blue ink stains added to the page edges when the comics were bundled as unsalable returns to the distributor. These bundles of unsold copies were used as ballast on cargo ships and formed the stock sent to the UK before the publishers took an interest in direct sales or UK editions.

American comic readers were more obsessed with value of the comic rather than actually enjoying reading them, at least that's the case with attendees of comic cons.

2 February 2019 at 09:10
Kid said...
Was it just unsold copies that were used as ballast? I always thought it was all US comics - the ones printed with UK prices on them as well. Strange to think that a US collector would turn up his nose at my copy of Journey Into Mystery #83, just because it has 9d on it instead of 12c.

2 February 2019 at 13:37
Terranova47 said...
By the time US publishers were printing UK prices on the cover the shipping status was improved and actual 'runs' of titles were shipped. When it was just unsold copies not every issue of a title received UK distribution. Back in the mid 70's I was buying various issues that didn't get UK distribution on behalf of London comic dealer Alan Austin who would send me lists of what hadn't turned up in the UK.

2 February 2019 at 14:55
Kid said...
What about early Marvels? They had UK prices, but weren't they also shipped across here as ballast? '70s I can understand, 'cos I know not everything was distributed over here. I'd heard that was so they wouldn't affect sales of the '70s UK Marvel weeklies, but not sure if that was true or not.

2 February 2019 at 16:25
Terranova47 said...
Neither Marvel or DC shipped to the UK in the 60's and early 70's both had reprint deals with British and Australian publishers for their material. Unsold copies were sold via T&P some UK prices were printed on covers at their request.

It wasn't until 'Fandom' started in the form of Phil Seurling in NYC as a distributor and Forbidden Planet in the UK that US publishers realised that they could increase their real sales. The unsold copies from distributors in the US that were shipped as ballast were of no direct profit to the publishers.

UK Marvel used material that was old and pure profit for Marvel. Importing newer releases from the US would not have adversely effected sales. In fact it would have improved sales as who wouldn't want earlier stories of a favourite character? Captain Britain was the first new title created for the UK and the Dr Who Weekly (Fourth Doctor) before it became a monthly was reprinted in the US in colour as a regular US format comic.

2 February 2019 at 18:02
Kid said...
Now I'm confused. I'd always understood that the comics Thorpe & Porter distributed, whether stamped or printed with a UK price, were shipped over to the UK as ballast, which is why the distribution was so spotty and why batches of '60s comics turned up in shops in the '70s - because they'd been sitting in warehouses for years. Or perhaps they were mixed and matched?

From a reader's point of view I'd agree with you about newer releases not necessarily affecting sales, but I'm not sure that's how Marvel saw it. If the story is true, obviously they thought that readers might prefer to buy a new, full-colour comic for 5p instead of a b&w reprint mag (with spot-colour) for the same price. I'd assume that Marvel were savvy enough to realise that kids only had so much pocket-money to spend and might prefer to get the latest US editions, which is why they might not have distributed certain titles in the UK - at least for a time. (Readers complained about not being able to get them.)

So even though it might make no sense to us, it might've made sense to them - IF the story is true.

Regarding Captain Britain and Doctor Who, yeah, knew that as I bought them at the time. Got the Marvel Premiere issues of Doctor Who in Portsmouth train station at the start of 1981. There were only four issues until the later US monthly, which I think lasted around 23 issues. Or was it 29? I can't get at them to count at the moment.

2 February 2019 at 18:49
Terranova47 said...
US comics were shipped as ballast. They were of no additional profit to the publishers. That was true from late 50's to the 70's. This included b/w magazines like MAD and Warren Publications.

By mid 70's distribution started changing from newsstand sales in the US to specialty stores. In the UK Forbidden Planet started being distributor for US publishers which led to direct additional sales for the publishers. This meant that basically waste paper bundles in warehouses were not the only US comics heading to the UK. Now it was new, current titles available at almost the same time as the US.

Marvel created the UK titles to sell to kids. Direct Sales from specialty stores sold to an older clientele that wasn't limited to 'pocket money'. Marvel in US viewed this as two seperate markets.

These days US comics are sold mostly at specialty stores. Sales are far fewer per title and kids will not find racks in candy stores accross the US anymore.

2 February 2019 at 19:38
Kid said...
So let's see if I understand you right. US comics were shipped as ballast. Yup, that's what I thought. From the '50s to the '70s? Then there must have been US comics being sent here via some other method as well, because I occasionally bought some close to their monthly cover dates back in the late '60s, very early '70s ('71 in fact), and that was ones with US prices on them.

So how were the ones with UK prices on them that Thorpe & Porter distributed here brought into the country in the '60s? As ballast or by some other method? I mean as regards newsagents' stock, before speciality stores.

I wouldn't say that Marvel created the UK titles JUST to sell to kids, but to anyone who wanted to buy them. Marvel tended to take an all-ages view with regard to their mags, and I was only 5 weeks away from turning 14 when MWOM came out - and I was also buying the US titles (when I saw them). Anyway, regardless of the logic (or lack of it) involved in the alleged 'restriction' of certain US titles to avoid them being a more attractive purchase than the UK weeklies, the fact is that it was 'the word on the street, Huggy' at the time. I didn't say it was true, but it was the perception of those who couldn't seem to find them in the shops.

And it's a fact that some titles weren't distributed here for some reason, whatever it happened to be. I often see comics listed as 'ND' when trawling through back issue catalogues on the Internet.

UK newsagents don't sell US comics in spinner-racks anymore either - or at all in fact. One other thing. The UK had its own version of Mad from 1959 to around 1994, so the US version may not have been distributed here (widely or at all) in the '60s and part of the '70s.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble, T47. Anyone else got anything to add?

2 February 2019 at 21:32
Spirit of 64 said...
Spidey and the Hulk were ND, FF and the Avengers were distributed, as were Tomb of Dracula and Conan.The ND comics could be picked up at conventions, or at shops like Dark They Were and Golden Eyed. There was a newsagent at Hammersmith tube station in London that sold ALL the distributed titles; it was a great place! Otherwise I remember being in the local corner store in '75 or '76 and finding pence variants of FF105, Subby 32, Iron Man 32 (all from 1970). These had probably been sitting in a warehouse somewhere. I bought then for 5 pence!

2 February 2019 at 23:25
Kid said...
Is it a coincidence that Spidey and the Hulk were the main stars of SMCW and MWOM, and that their US comics were non-distributed? H'mm, one to ponder methinks. Regarding finding comics on sale five years after they'd been published, that reminds me of when I found Lee/Kirby FFs, and Lee/Buscema Surfers on sale in shop spinner-racks in Blackpool in 1973-'74. In pristine condition (and costing only 5 pence), and tucked amongst current titles as if they'd just come out. Those were the days.

[Get Marwood & I]

I love reading blogs about comic distribution in the UK 

[Malacoda]

On 9/22/2022 at 3:51 AM, Kevin.J said:

Not sure how many compete Surfer sets I have, but let's say a few.

I will have a look for #10s tomorrow, well you never know  

Lordy Mama.  You have a slabbed #48 signed by Stan?  OK.  That is quite some collection.  

Kev, while you're checking for SS 10, could you please also look for stamps of 15, 16 and 17.  There are plenty of PV's and unstamped cents copies, but no stamps found so far.  (Actually, I say plenty, #15 seems to be pretty rare despite being a PV).  

As Steve will tell you, I spent an entire year scouring the Tinternet for Avengers #9 and DD #4 before realising that I actually owned stamped copies of both.  And they're supposedly impossibly rare.  Nothing would surprise me. 

[Malacoda]

On 9/22/2022 at 7:54 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Wouldn't we all die laughing if.....

Yes. That. would. be. hilarious. 

[Get Marwood & I]

Spotted this online - a T&P distributed 1971 DC with an 'original insert' advertising the 1970 Top Sellers Bumper Book range:

[themagicrobot]

I was buying new DCs in 1971 (and much earlier) and have never seen that insert

Just proves there’s still stuff out there to be discovered and complete the picture

Edited September 22, 2022 by themagicrobot