The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Albert Tatlock]

3 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

an unusual stamp - a numbered two shilling diamond -

Here are a few more 2/- diamond.

I believe they are recycled T & P stock. 

Cover date is 1974, so obviously the diamond stamp was applied after they had passed through T & P's hands.

The Charlton 20 cents are post-decimal too, so the 2 shilling stamp is an anachronism, but it must have been applied for a reason.

Bought the Superman from an old mill on Bradford Road in Manchester in late 70s or early 80s. They were lying in the open air in an alcove in the mill yard.

Filled my car boot up, had to leave a few behind, paid the little man (presumably not the legitimate owner) a few bob, worked out at approx nuppence each.

Still selling the odd one on ebay. Also in the parcel were Detective 438 or 439 and Batman 255, plus an assortment of others, Prez, Secret Origins, etc.. Will try to dig out a fe more.

[Mr Thorpe]

Snap on the Superman. And I'll raise you a Detective 437!

I bought these at London comic marts in the mid to late 70's. I always wondered what those stamps were all about! I suspect they are ex Tatlock stock if you were selling them on back then!

I'm also pretty certain I've seen a 5/- diamond stamp.

[Get Marwood & I]

One and six....

[Get Marwood & I]

On 10/15/2020 at 4:40 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

October 1953 magazine distributed by T & P, the earliest I have found so far, but printed in England and with no stamp.

Mr Thorpe and Mr Porter are certainly men of mystery. Even Mr Google is struggling.

Companies House no help, as their public records do not go back far enough.

I have checked for trademarks for Thorpe & Porter, T & P and Strato Publications as far back as 1876, but nothing is showing.

Earliest stamp will probably be in the 1958/59 range, I feel but will carry on hunting.

I posted this before, but just reminded myself of it:

If comics and magazines followed the same date - as Google suggests they did - then the actual UK stamping would have had to have started from June 1959 at the earliest to be legal. Wouldn't it?

[Albert Tatlock]

10 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Here are a few more 2/- diamond.

Are these all number 5 stamp? Any variations?

[Albert Tatlock]

2 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

If comics and magazines followed the same date - as Google suggests they did - then the actual UK stamping would have had to have started from June 1959 at the earliest to be legal. Wouldn't it?

See my earlier posting on George Pumphrey.

A little earlier in the article I quoted is a passage from a legitimate publisher moaning about the apparent ease with which the importers of comics could obtain their material in spite of paper rationing.

This exactly mirrors the well-documented exasperation of football club programme editors of the time, hamstrung by curbs on their ability to obtain supplies of paper, but seeing the hawkers of pirate programmes outside their stadiums apparently operating under no such handicaps.

There was a loophole in the legislation which could be, and indeed was, exploited by the distributors of juvenile literature. Imports from Canada, a Commonwealth nation, were not subject to the same restrictions as the USA.

 

[Get Marwood & I]

8 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

See my earlier posting on George Pumphrey.

A little earlier in the article I quoted is a passage from a legitimate publisher moaning about the apparent ease with which the importers of comics could obtain their material in spite of paper rationing.

This exactly mirrors the well-documented exasperation of football club programme editors of the time, hamstrung by curbs on their ability to obtain supplies of paper, but seeing the hawkers of pirate programmes outside their stadiums apparently operating under no such handicaps.

There was a loophole in the legislation which could be, and indeed was, exploited by the distributors of juvenile literature. Imports from Canada, a Commonwealth nation, were not subject to the same restrictions as the USA.

 

I couldn't read it - the link said I had reached my limit or something like that. Just tried again, no luck

[Garystar]

11 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

If comics and magazines followed the same date - as Google suggests they did - then the actual UK stamping would have had to have started from June 1959 at the earliest to be legal. Wouldn't it?

From “Paperbacks Pulp & Comics Collector”

This would make it possible for T&P stamp on books from 1955ish and comics from 1957ish. All depends on when those import restrictions were lifted, I’ve googled but can’t find anything, perhaps a letter to Board of Trade may reveal answer. 
 

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Garystar said:

From “Paperbacks Pulp & Comics Collector”

This would make it possible for T&P stamp on books from 1955ish and comics from 1957ish. All depends on when those import restrictions were lifted, I’ve googled but can’t find anything, perhaps a letter to Board of Trade may reveal answer. 

Thanks Gary - mid 1959 is referenced here and there around the web:

Most references I have seen indicate the mid to latter half of 1959 as being the legal starting point for US comics to be imported - in T&P's case, this is backed up by the physical evidence of the comics and magazines we've gathered and stamp 'number plotted' so far (notwithstanding some of the cover date misalignments which may be the result of different returns processes by publisher, bi-monthly cycles or stockpiling).

@Albert Tatlock - what did you mean by the 'Colindale' comment earlier on - I think it was linked to the text I couldn't read? 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

Here's a bit of speculation before I disappear for the day.

War at Sea #29:

• Cover dated February 1959
• US arrival stamp example of 13th November
• US 'On-sale' date from Mike's Comic Newsstand of approx 1st December 1958

  

Here's a guess as to the end to end process:

1. The comic is printed in early November
2. It is shipped to the US newsagents in mid-November (backed up by the example arrival date)
3. US newsagent keeps it on the shelf until the next issue lands - that is issue #30 which has an approx 'on-sale' date of the 1st of March 1959 (Charltons were bi-monthly as a rule but this one has a 3 month gap)
4. US newsagent initiates the unsold return of #29 in early March 1959 when he receives #30
5. The central returns point prepares the unsold receipts for onward shipping to the UK around the end of March 1959
6. 3 month shipping window to the UK (based on anecdotal evidence)
7. Shipment arrives in the UK end June / early July 
8. T&P stamp up and distribute to the UK newsagents
9. The books goes on sale in the UK in end June / early July 1959

July 1959 is the time that T&P could legally distribute. The cover stamp on all 3 examples that I have of that book is a '2'. We only need one publication to precede it and that makes our #2 stamped February Charltons the second ever use of the T&P 9d price stamp.

What do you think? I'll try a similar plotting exercise for one of the first DCs to see if it matches, probably tomorrow. 

[Garystar]

On 10/11/2020 at 8:08 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I'm sure geography has a lot to do with it.

Obviously T&P distribution didn’t reach as far as Malaya

[Garystar]

I’m intrigued as to what the numbers signify so going to have a go at mapping Marvels main titles, there is only a 10 year window before the number disappeared from T&P stamp. I’ve made a very brief start and doesn’t look too promising, however when get more examples may see a pattern. 
I had a thought that these may be remainder copies that sat in US warehouse and never made it to retailers, the comics would still be bundled so different companies (and possibly different titles within each company) would be kept separate so would not necessarily align with each other. 

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Garystar said:

Obviously T&P distribution didn’t reach as far as Malaya

Nice one 

54 minutes ago, Garystar said:

I’m intrigued as to what the numbers signify so going to have a go at mapping Marvels main titles, there is only a 10 year window before the number disappeared from T&P stamp. I’ve made a very brief start and doesn’t look too promising, however when get more examples may see a pattern. 
I had a thought that these may be remainder copies that sat in US warehouse and never made it to retailers, the comics would still be bundled so different companies (and possibly different titles within each company) would be kept separate so would not necessarily align with each other. 

Cool, looking forward to the results Gary. 

My work finished early so i did the DC one - I think I'm onto something. Next post a comin....

[Get Marwood & I]

3 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I'll try a similar plotting exercise for one of the first DCs to see if it matches, probably tomorrow. 

OK, this is interesting.

One of the first DC T&P stamped copies I have in the files is Batman #127. Indeed, it is one of the books in the CBPGUK's 'first distribution' books:

So, Batman #127:

• Cover dated October 1959
• US arrival stamp example of 25th August
• US 'On-sale' date from Mike's Comic Newsstand also 25th August 1959

 

The end to end process speculation this time is:

• The comic is printed in early August 1959
• It is shipped to the US newsagents by the 25th of August (backed up by the example arrival date)
• US newsagent keeps it on the shelf until the next issue lands - that is issue #128 which has an 'on-sale' date of the 13th of October 1959
• US newsagent initiates the unsold return of #127 in mid-October 1959 when he receives #128
• The central returns point prepares the unsold receipts for onward shipping to the UK around the end of October 1959
• 3 month shipping window to the UK (based on anecdotal evidence)
• Shipment arrives in the UK in January 1960 
• T&P stamp up and distribute to the UK newsagents
• The books goes on sale in the UK in January 1960

Now all the examples I have seen of Batman #127 are stamped with a '9'. So, if the first time a 9 stamp was used was January 1960, if we work back, assuming a monthly cycle in line with normal comic cover dates:

• January 1960 - first ever 9 stamp - Batman #127 (DC)
• December 1959 - first ever 8 stamp
• November 1959 - first ever 7 stamp
• October 1959 - first ever 6 stamp
• September 1959 - first ever 5 stamp
• August 1959 - first ever 4 stamp
• July 1959 - first ever 3 stamp
• June 1959 - first ever 2 stamp - War at Sea #29 (Charlton)
• May 1959 - first ever 1 stamp

The June 1959 '2' actually works out with my previous exercise for War at Sea #29 a few posts up.

Could this table below therefore be the arrival sequence for our first official T&P stamped US comics in the UK?

 

Everyone was so focussed on Marvel and DC (as usual) that no one noticed or cared that Charlton got in there first?

What do you guys think?

 

 

[Albert Tatlock]

17 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

If comics and magazines followed the same date - as Google suggests they did - then the actual UK stamping would have had to have started from June 1959 at the earliest to be legal. Wouldn't it?

See my earlier posting on George Pumphrey.

A little earlier in the article I quoted is a passage from a legitimate publisher moaning about the apparent ease with which the importers of comics could obtain their material in spite of paper rationing.

This exactly mirrors the well-documented exasperation of football club programme editors of the time, hamstrung by curbs on their ability to obtain supplies of paper, but seeing the hawkers of pirate programmes outside their stadiums apparently operating under no such handicaps.

There was a loophole in the legislation which could be, and indeed was, exploited by the distributors of juvenile literature. Imports from Canada, a Commonwealth nation, were not subject to the same restrictions as the USA.

How about this for a timeline:

Early 1959, Government announce end of restriction on importation of US magazines to follow in a few months.

T & P strike deal with US publishers to import unsold stock.

June 1959, first batch is shipped, arriving July 1959 (surely 1 month is sufficient for a crossing, even by a slow cargo vessel).

July 1959 consignment clears Customs, goes to T & P who stamp it with a 1.

December 1959 first batch of DCs are shipped, arriving January 1960, by which time the stamp number has advanced as far as 6 or 7.

1960 - each succeeding month advances the number stamp by 1.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, Albert Tatlock said:

See my earlier posting on George Pumphrey.

A little earlier in the article I quoted is a passage from a legitimate publisher moaning about the apparent ease with which the importers of comics could obtain their material in spite of paper rationing.

This exactly mirrors the well-documented exasperation of football club programme editors of the time, hamstrung by curbs on their ability to obtain supplies of paper, but seeing the hawkers of pirate programmes outside their stadiums apparently operating under no such handicaps.

There was a loophole in the legislation which could be, and indeed was, exploited by the distributors of juvenile literature. Imports from Canada, a Commonwealth nation, were not subject to the same restrictions as the USA.

How about this for a timeline:

Early 1959, Government announce end of restriction on importation of US magazines to follow in a few months.

T & P strike deal with US publishers to import unsold stock.

June 1959, first batch is shipped, arriving July 1959 (surely 1 month is sufficient for a crossing, even by a slow cargo vessel).

July 1959 consignment clears Customs, goes to T & P who stamp it with a 1.

December 1959 first batch of DCs are shipped, arriving January 1960, by which time the stamp number has advanced as far as 6 or 7.

1960 - each succeeding month advances the number stamp by 1.

Look at my two posts preceding this Albert - the Charlton then the DC

[Albert Tatlock]

9 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

January 1960 - first ever 9 stamp - Batman #127 (DC)

There are 9 stamps on some December 1959 issues.

This copy of Batman 127 is possibly a late arrival. There should be some with a 7 stamp.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, Albert Tatlock said:

There are 9 stamps on some December 1959 issues.

This copy of Batman 127 is possibly a late arrival. There should be some with a 7 stamp.

I've seen 2 Batman #127's so far and both are '9's. Now, come on Albert, what do you think of my two timelines - do you think the Charlton's could be the first books to come over, ahead of the DCs?

[Albert Tatlock]

2 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Charlton's could be the first books to come over, ahead of the DCs?

Certainly possible

[Albert Tatlock]

4 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

what did you mean by the 'Colindale' comment earlier on

Colindale has a library of periodicals, newspapers, etc going back a long way.

George V's collection of bound volumes of football programmes found its way there.

A few pages earlier, you uploaded a scan of Detective 274 with a number 9 stamp, I reckon Batman 127 with a 9 stamp is one delayed on its journey.