The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Malacoda]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, baggsey said:

As has been said many times on this thread, our knowledge of the distribution process is all speculation. My view is that DC and Marvel were both New York-based publishing entities, and would not have waited for the entire country to send in their returns before deciding which comics to send to the UK.

To respectfully counter: in the case of Marvel, I don't think any of them were returns, they were all bespoke batches that went straight to T&P including the cents/stamped ones.   In the case of DC, surely the long scatter pattern of bunching & multi-batching (the same issue turning up repeatedly over several months & multiple consecutive issues turning up together in the same month) indicates that there was something of this ilk going on e.g. every issue of Superman 345 (Steve, proper example please) rolled off the presses at the same time, so how did they end up turning up over successive months in the UK?  ( I agree as you say that a lot of the stuff we accord the status of a fact is just reinforced supposition, but the sequential stamping catalogued by our Intrepid Founder and the memories of so, so many collectors confirm that pattern).   

[themagicrobot]

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Very interesting. When you say on holiday, is this the seaside special story we hear so often?  ( I presume you weren't on holiday in downtown Basingstoke).  

It was Sherringham Norfolk. The same Newsagents where my father purchased the Charlton "Buffalo Bill" paperbacks. My experience of seaside holiday resorts in the 1960s and early 1970s was that Newsagents did a tremendous turnaround of paperbacks/magazines/comics and would restock extremely regularly. I doubt the FFs had been there on the counter for more than a day.  Visiting daily for a week I soon found there were always more/different comics appearing. Perhaps there was a mountain of stock in the back though?

 

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   On 3/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, baggsey said:

I do not believe the comics we got in the UK ever hit newsstands or drug stores in the US

There are many examples with US arrival dates written on, proof that they had been through the Stateside retail system.

 

Do we have examples of comics with date stamps AND T&P stamps. That would prove that at least some comics had started out in a Drugstore in the States before eventually reaching my local newsagents. But the timeframe when we received comics after their Atlantic crossing makes me feel they came straight from the printers. The Ethels were required to mix up the comics into assorted batches that were saleable/manageable for the smaller local newsagents which distributed most periodicals around the towns and villages here. Incidentally, the family had many holidays in Wales when I was young and Marvels and DCs were to be found easily and in the most unlikely places. I purchased a Fantasy Masterpieces from a tiny shop at the base of the Great Orme.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by themagicrobot

[Malacoda]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, baggsey said:

I suspect that it was an East Coast regional process

I agree. Given the numbers that were needed for the UK (10k per title maybe?), it would have been financial lunacy to transport that amount of returns thousands of miles from the four corners of the US when there would have been easily that amount within striking distance of Port Newark Elizabeth. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 3/29/2023 at 5:52 PM, themagicrobot said:

Do we have examples of comics with date stamps AND T&P stamps.

There are a few on the first page of this thread.....

[LowGradeBronze]

On 3/29/2023 at 5:52 PM, Malacoda said:

Given the numbers that were needed for the UK (10k per title maybe?).....

This is still guesswork isn't it? We'll never know for sure how many copies were earmarked (and UKPV'd) for consumption this side of the pond. Can't someone hold a seance and ask Stan, or maybe Sol. He would know. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by LowGradeBronze

[Malacoda]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, baggsey said:

I do not believe the comics we got in the UK ever hit newsstands or drug stores in the US. Comics from street vendors and drug stores in the US were sold SOR and comics were returned with the top cover half torn off.

I agree here too. 

I know we are healthily sceptical of the statement of ownership numbers (esp. given the famous comment by friend Giordano) but:

(a) he was only talking about Charlton, which was pretty, you know, mobby

(b) I don't believe the more corporate / reputable (sorry, Steve) publishers would have done that

(c) if the numbers were all made up, how come they are so amazingly consistent from title to title, year to year, publisher to publisher? It's like me saying to you 'pick a number between 1 and 500,000'  and then guessing the number you're thinking of.  ( It was 317, 753 by the way). 

(d))  If they were going to put all that effort into creating credible fake numbers, it would have been easier to just publish the real ones 

(e) what would be the need to fake them?  Every month, they got a number from Sparta which said how many were printed. I'm sure the actual numbers of sell through were based on estimates because the real numbers would not have been finalised, but why wouldn't you base them the last 6 months of actual data? Much easier.  There is no way that accounts / sales data was NEVER being collated.  Maybe this is what DG meant by 'we made them up'. 

Now, if we accept from the distribution perspective, that literally 40% of the print run never got sold (let's say 200k out of 500k)  let's remember that Sparta were sending the whole lot out to the regional and local wholesalers - it wasn't like everything went to the Marvel or DC depot where an army of Ethels (or Flo Steinbergs) broke them all out into parcels for each wholesaler.  They went straight to the wholesalers.  Does it then seem likely that every copy was religiously sent out to retailers?  We know from the sales data that the dealers had no possibility of selling them and, in the case of news vendors, precious little space to even display them.  It seems more likely to me they were stockpiled at wholesalers.  Another point may be that they came back unopened from the retailers. The news vendor was compelled to take what the wholesaler wanted to give him, but if he didn't even display the comics, would he really open the the bundle and meticulously tear half the cover off each one?  I imagine more likely the bundle just came back unopened?  I mention this last point because it seems to me that there's quite a dense grey area between the wholesaler and the retailer and your point about wholesalers and Albert's about retailers both live in that greyness.  I agree with you that they were probably unused wholesale.      

[Malacoda]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, baggsey said:

The second question is where were the returned comics shipped to the UK from? I'm guessing that they were shipped from either New York or Baltimore to Tilbury or Liverpool. Bills of lading would have been produced in New York. 

My money would be on Liverpool in the 60's (if I were exporting to Leicester) although Tilbury is a good shout (main port for the importation of paper these days). Why do you reckon Baltimore is more likely than Newark?   

[Malacoda]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, baggsey said:

As regards the UK side of things, has anyone tried to locate the import records of T&P?  This page from familysearch.org is a god start for location English company records.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/England_Business_Records_(National_Institute)

This is really interesting.  Thank you.  So far, I've looked for people, news articles and adverts which has been quite a hunt.  I didn't imagine there would be a ready source of company data, which I assumed would be kept confidential at the time and destroyed after 7 years.  OK, on we go.   

[baggsey]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:29 PM, Malacoda said:

My money would be on Liverpool in the 60's (if I were exporting to Leicester) although Tilbury is a good shout (main port for the importation of paper these days). Why do you reckon Baltimore is more likely than Newark?   

Sorry - I was considering Port Elizabeth to be New York area , so I'd put that as first choice, with Baltimore as second, purely on the its basis as a major commercial port at that time, and East Coast based.

[Malacoda]

On 3/29/2023 at 5:11 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

There are many examples with US arrival dates written on, proof that they had been through the Stateside retail system.

Agree, Albert, but I think the word 'through' implies right through and out the other side.  Keeping in mind that there were thousands of local wholesalers & distributors, those stamps could be wholesalers. It would still explain why you get different stamp dates on different issues of the same comic.  The problem is that we don't know what a correlative number would be i.e.  if over 10 years we collectively found X number of stamps it would suggest wholesalers, but if we found (much greater number) Y it would suggest retailers. We have no idea what X and Y are.  

We also don't know if the numbers we've seen of those prove they were UK distributed copies at all.  I've only seen dozens of them, not hundreds, so they could have been brought over here by dealers & collectors.  

[baggsey]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:33 PM, Malacoda said:

This is really interesting.  Thank you.  So far, I've looked for people, news articles and adverts which has been quite a hunt.  I didn't imagine there would be a ready source of company data, which I assumed would be kept confidential at the time and destroyed after 7 years.  OK, on we go.   

Well, the sources mentioned there may be a dead end, of course.   However, I'm sure that the records would have ended up somewhere, though. As part of my family tree research I've also had success looking for bill books and letters relating to an old law firm at the London Metropolitan Archives, where many London-based firms deposited business records in the fifties.

Of course, when T&P went through the hands of IND, Kinney, Warners, W H Allen over the years, so T&P records may be in the archives of any of those companies.

[LowGradeBronze]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, baggsey said:

Comics from street vendors and drug stores in the US were sold SOR and comics were returned with the top cover half torn off.  I’ve seen enough of those old comics with top covers torn off in back-issue boxes in local comic stores here in Illinois.

 

 

I'm sure I read in the Mile High 2 story, that the practice of returning any part of the comics was abandoned at some point with a signed affidavit type document giving the unsold numbers, taking its place. The legal nature of that document was intended to prevent re-sale but it didn't always! (Although that defeats the object of getting returns back so they could be pulped.) That practice (the old alfred-david,) led to some of the stockpiles, as we know from the Mile High 2 collection. 

Whether or not any of those particular comics made it to the UK in bulk though, is another matter. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by LowGradeBronze

[baggsey]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:45 PM, LowGradeBronze said:

I'm sure I read in the Mile High 2 story, that the practice of returning any part of the comics was abandoned at some point with a signed affidavit type document giving the unsold numbers. The legal nature of that document was intended to prevent re-sale but it didn't always! (Although that defeats the object of getting returns back so they could be pulped.) That practice (the old alfred-david,) led to some of the stockpiles, as we know from the Mile High 2 collection. 

Yes - that Jim Shooter blog I posted a link to above talks about the affadavit process in more detail. http://jimshooter.com/2011/11/comic-book-distribution.html/

[Malacoda]

On 3/29/2023 at 6:34 PM, baggsey said:

Sorry - I was considering Port Elizabeth to be New York area , so I'd put that as first choice, with Baltimore as second, purely on the its basis as a major commercial port at that time, and East Coast based.

Right. It's true, it's all Port of NY Authority, so it's an artificial distinction between NY & NJ, either one could have been a contender (see what I did there?) 

[Malacoda]

On 3/29/2023 at 5:52 PM, themagicrobot said:

It was Sherringham Norfolk. The same Newsagents where my father purchased the Charlton "Buffalo Bill" paperbacks. My experience of seaside holiday resorts in the 1960s and early 1970s was that Newsagents did a tremendous turnaround of paperbacks/magazines/comics and would restock extremely regularly. I doubt the FFs had been there on the counter for more than a day.  Visiting daily for a week I soon found there were always more/different comics appearing. Perhaps there was a mountain of stock in the back though?

I was there about 7 years after you, but I seem to remember buying Asterix and Tintin books at the time.  And riding a steam train. 

The mountain of stock could also have been at the rep's lock up waiting for its second chance.  The chap I was talking to recently got his seconds in holiday shops in Heacham and Hunstanton, which are also north coast of Norfolk (at the same time you were there).  

Edited March 29, 2023 by Malacoda

[LowGradeBronze]

From Jim Shooter's blog, (thanks Baggsey ): "Remember, 5,000 copies of FF never left the warehouse, so then, Triangle had 6,000 copies. No need to deface the comics under the affidavit system. So, they might sell some copies at a discount to bottom-feeder retailers who came around looking for a cheap merch, or shrink-wrap bundles of comics into “bricks,” which warehouse clubs like Sam’s or Costco would buy. Or they might sell them to secondary or international markets, just as the publishers used to.  Or toss them into the paper wolf and sell the pulp."

Could those 'international markets' have included comics that ended up at the seaside? My (seaside) newsagent back in 1973 sold a random selection in terms of dates, covering 1968 to 1972 at one point. He didn't carry the latest titles, just back issues, Marvel and DC. 

[baggsey]

On 3/29/2023 at 12:52 PM, Malacoda said:

Right. It's true, it's all Port of NY Authority, so it's an artificial distinction between NY & NJ, either one could have been a contender (see what I did there?) 

Ah, a film buff, eh? @Malacoda

On the topic of researching Bills of Lading and ship movements at Liverpool, it might be worth a trip to Merseyside to see the Liverpool Dock Registers which recorded dock movements up to and including the 1960s - see https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/archivesheet49   , which has not yet computerized.

More specifically, the Archives Centre at Merseyside Maritime Museum holds the national collection of Customs Bills of Entry. The records for Customs Bills of Entry at Merseyside only go up to 1939 (as shown here https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/archivesheet7)  but it might be worthwhile contacting the museum to see if they can advise on the location of 1960s and 1970s Customs Bills of Entry, which would no doubt identify consignments for T&P.

[themagicrobot]

They were tearing the covers off at least up to 1969 if this image is anything to go by. Although it seems the rest of the comics survived until 2023. One unanswered question concerns T&Ps Double Double comics. Why were they packaged without covers? If they had old/surplus comic stock t would have been easier to bind four complete comics with covers (as they did with the Annuals). Were they recycling returns to T&P with tatty covers? Were they not wasting damaged/spoiled stock at the T&P warehouse with badly smudged ink stamps? Or did T&P acquire a stack of comics from the States extremely cheaply that already had their logos/front covers torn off?

[baggsey]

On 3/29/2023 at 1:03 PM, LowGradeBronze said:

Could those 'international markets' have included comics that ended up at the seaside? My (seaside) newsagent back in 1973 sold a random selection in terms of dates, covering 1968 to 1972 at one point. He didn't carry the latest titles, just back issues, Marvel and DC. 

That's an interesting thought, @LowGradeBronze .   Back in 1972, while on holiday in Ventnor, Isle of Wight, I picked up a 1966 Detective comic in crisp, immaculate condition from the spinner rack. It could very well be that the seaside retailers had an alternative source for their summer stock ; I always assumed it was in the back room, wheeled back at the end of the season.

[baggsey]

On 3/29/2023 at 1:04 PM, themagicrobot said:

They were tearing the covers off at least up to 1969 if this image is anything to go by. Although it seems the rest of the comics survived until 2023. One unanswered question concerns T&Ps Double Double comics. Why were they packaged without covers? If they had old/surplus comic stock t would have been easier to bind four complete comics with covers (as they did with the Annuals). Were they recycling returns to T&P with tatty covers? Were they not wasting damaged/spoiled stock at the T&P warehouse with badly smudged ink stamps? Or did T&P acquire a stack of comics from the States extremely cheaply that already had their logos/front covers torn off?

Not having any of the Double Double comics these days, I know some of them included random Marvel comics. If so, did any of the Marvels have indicias that credit T&P, which might indicate that they were from T&P stock, rather than coverless returns sourced from the States?