The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Malacoda]

On 3/27/2023 at 7:35 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

There should be copies at the British Library if only one of our intrepid band will volunteer. I made a similar suggestion before lockdown, but no-one has yet answered the call.

I may take a swing at it,  Albert, but we'd have to hone in.  Really what we need is a microfiched & scanned archive that is searchable for key words.  If you tried to get through 1945 - 1982 manually, even if you were skimming a page every 20 seconds, it would take 80 days of 8 hour days to get through it.  We have to hone it down to key years. 

[Malacoda]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:26 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Probably why I post rubbish like this Rich:

https://boards.cgccomics.com/blogs/entry/5418-the-search-for-pre-1960-uk-price-variants/

This is such a brilliant thread.  I've read it a few times.  What I love is that you say 'it's so much more fun to do everything yourself than ask other people', but what you then provide is an analysis so comprehensive (dimensions, colour separation, blemishes, paper stock...even staples) that it practically serves as a guide to anyone else trying to do the same thing. The other thing of course is that you are a total beacon (Bat signal?) for other lost souls out there.  The comments on there from everyone are tremendous, with brilliantly erudite new info particularly from AJD and the Robot, but the new ones from Bobbi Betamax are really heartwarming - seems like someone joined the fold just to post on your pre-1960 thread - which is....is.. just.....[wipes away a tear]....no, seriously, it's truly cool, so let me peel you a grape. 

If I ever get to the point where people are joining up just to respond to something I posted, I will be calling that a good day's work. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Malacoda

[Redshade]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:06 PM, Malacoda said:

On Mondays, I go by 'Stephanie'.

 

Now there's a blast from the past. That little vignette is (I think) from Life of Brian. Trust the Pythons to be taking the **** out of "wokery" 44 bloody years ago!
Watch the whole sketch, it's hilarious.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Redshade

[Malacoda]

On 3/28/2023 at 7:53 PM, Redshade said:

Now there's a blast from the past. That little vignette is (I think) from Life of Brian. Trust the Pythons to be taking the of "wokery" 44 bloody years ago!
Watch the whole sketch, it's hilarious.

Indeed.  "Let's agree that even though you can't have babies, we will fight the oppressor for your right to have babies" 

 

 

[Redshade]

On 3/28/2023 at 8:05 PM, Malacoda said:

Indeed.  "Let's agree that even though you can't have babies, we will fight the oppressor for your right to have babies" 

 

 

TYPO.   Should have been : ". . . taking the out of wokery. . . ".

[Redshade]

On 3/28/2023 at 8:19 PM, Redshade said:

TYPO.   Should have been : ". . . taking the out of wokery. . . ".

It's done it again! The system is censoring me. I had  ". .  . taking the urination out of wokery . . ."

 

[Malacoda]

While we're having a little 200th/4000th anniversary, can I take you all on a little reminder of one of my favourite bits of this thread?  (Rhetorical question, obviously).

Back on page 133, I posited a theory about the summer of 71 (Bryan Adams' little known follow up single) and the DC UKPV's.  The theory was actually wrong (both logically and factually), but the quality of responses from you guys was so strong that it's still one of my favourite bits of this thread even though I made a total twonk of myself.  Marwood's responses to the actual post made me realise I had to dive deeper (which I've done and am about to launch round 2....probably with similar levels of success), but there are great responses from many other contributors.   In particular....

 

[Malacoda]

On 6/17/2022 at 6:27 PM, OtherEric said:

Actually, Marvel achieved exactly what they wanted to with the giant size issues in one month, mission accomplished.  Although they later got penalized slightly for it. 

At the time, there was a price freeze on certain consumer items in the US.  Marvel was able to raise the prices because they increased the page count at the same time.  They were then able to lower the prices to a lower point almost instantly, but to a higher point than where they had been a couple months before.

DC tried the same trick, but wasn't as blatant about it, and ordered more paper to deal with it.  So they were locked into the bigger format for about a year, during which the cheaper Marvel books finally moved ahead of DC overall in sales, if I recall correctly.

Marvel actually had to reach a settlement with the government over their handling of it, that's why they had the glossy insert in Fantastic Four #128- it was giving back some of the unauthorized profit back to the consumer.

.....this point from Eric which is still on my list of things to get back to, but well deserving of a 

[Malacoda]

On 6/17/2022 at 7:14 PM, themagicrobot said:

Is it totally completely absolutely definite that all DCs imported by Thorpe and Porter 1959 - 1971 were returns?

Also, the Robot asking this question, which is one of those things that has kind of gained the status of a fact, but we really have never nailed it down. Interestingly I read a quote from a guy chatting about it on Faceache where he said (more or less quoting verbatim here) that he remembered it being a real letdown when local shops had a new delivery of American comics during what he called a 'repeat' month. On the plus side he said that this meant that there were other months when he might get three consecutive issues of a title released all in one go.  

This reflects pretty much what we've heard many times, but it's interesting that in some months, the newsagents in his locality got so many repeats of comics that had already been through that he actually describes it as a 'repeat month'. 

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 3/28/2023 at 5:17 PM, Malacoda said:

This is such a brilliant thread.  I've read it a few times.  What I love is that you say 'it's so much more fun to do everything yourself than ask other people', but what you then provide is an analysis so comprehensive (dimensions, colour separation, blemishes, paper stock...even staples) that it practically serves as a guide to anyone else trying to do the same thing. The other thing of course is that you are a total beacon (Bat signal?) for other lost souls out there.  The comments on there from everyone are tremendous, with brilliantly erudite new info particularly from AJD and the Robot, but the new ones from Bobbi Betamax are really heartwarming - seems like someone joined the fold just to post on your pre-1960 thread - which is....is.. just.....[wipes away a tear]....no, seriously, it's truly cool, so let me peel you a grape. 

If I ever get to the point where people are joining up just to respond to something I posted, I will be calling that a good day's work. 

Ah, that's really kind of you to say Rich. Thanks mate 

[themagicrobot]

Back when I was still a youngster in this thread I said something I had completely forgotten about but still seems a reasonable assumption.

Quote

 

@Malacoda Is it totally completely absolutely definite that all DCs imported by Thorpe and Porter 1959 - 1971 were returns? We have seen from many statement of ownership thingys that always far more comics of each issue/title were printed than were actually required. And despite having these figures to hand they continued to overprint. Surely these factory-fresh issues were ideal to ship out to the UK. Perhaps T & P had an order for x number of all titles from the overprint runs and also another order to take x number of random assorted returns (at a reduced price) as and when they showed up a month or two later. These would be mixed in with the "new" stock so the newsagents might get a batch with a Sgt Bilko 17 when they had already received a Sgt Bilko 17 a month or two earlier?

I think T&P would need to specify x number of Superman etc as just receiving returns would be too random as some titles/particular issues might be more popular in the US and returns might be fewer. They might have ended up with too many Tomahawks and not enough superheroes for their UK customers. T&P adverts in their own Super DC comic (published 1969/1970) indicated that we could expect to see Superman, World's Finest etc available monthly. 

For those 5 1971 comics I don't think we'll ever know what happened. Someone from the US might have visited the T&P warehouse and been amazed seeing Ethel up to her armpits in stamped comics and decided to bring the process into the C20th. Someone else did a cost analysis and found stopping the presses to change one tiny little bit of the cover cost more than employing the Ethels so the planned change was shelved.

 

As someone buying comics in the early 1970s it was certainly quite a mixed up period with no guarantee I could locate the particular titles I wanted each and every month. It wasn't too big a problem as there were still more comics out there than I could afford and I had also discovered Mail Order, Fanzines and Comic Marts to get back issues.

One odd thing I will mention which still sticks in my memory. On holiday Easter 1970 I purchased three different shiny brand new Fantastic Fours in the same shop at the same time. They were numbers 91,92,93 from months earlier and were laid out on the counter with other Marvel comics with similar dates from 4 or 5 months earlier. They certainly didn't have the appearance of having been there for months. They looked brand new and cost the expected 1/- each. I was amazed more by the fact that the story continued through the three issues.

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 3/29/2023 at 4:05 AM, Malacoda said:

On 6/17/2022 at 7:14 PM, themagicrobot said:

Is it totally completely absolutely definite that all DCs imported by Thorpe and Porter 1959 - 1971 were returns?

Also, the Robot asking this question, which is one of those things that has kind of gained the status of a fact, but we really have never nailed it down. Interestingly I read a quote from a guy chatting about it on Faceache where he said (more or less quoting verbatim here) that he remembered it being a real letdown when local shops had a new delivery of American comics during what he called a 'repeat' month. On the plus side he said that this meant that there were other months when he might get three consecutive issues of a title released all in one go.  

This reflects pretty much what we've heard many times, but it's interesting that in some months, the newsagents in his locality got so many repeats of comics that had already been through that he actually describes it as a 'repeat month'. 

 

I feel like I've forgotten more than I remember on this now but if the plotting exercises I did told us anything it was that the same issue could appear over consecutive stamp number deliveries (if we accept that each stamp represents an approximate one month delivery cycle) and that, in the later years, runs of issues could appear in the same month (i.e. stamped with the same number). This extract for Action Comics - just before T&P dropped the numbered stamps - shows multiple issues apparently arriving in the same month / delivery:

The stamp 2 section there could be one of those 'repeat months' I suppose.

This might be why I kept saying the numbering sequence consistency went to pot later in the cycles Rich. The pattern degrades. In the early cycles, a particular DC issue could appear in two or three consecutive months, e.g. stamped a 5, 6 and 7. This to me fits with a returns model, as all the US outlets couldn't be expected to return their unsold copies all at the same time and it makes sense that they would be returned on a staggered basis with the majority in one slot but a few others before and after them.

We've seen many recollections from people about what they experienced in their shops back in the day, but they sometimes are contradictory so it may be that things were done differently in different areas and times.

At the end of the day, it gets dark, and all we can say for certain is that we received printed UKPVs and cents copies that were stamped although not always concurrently. It appears that the cents copies were stamped in line with a monthly sequential, stamp numbered design but that theory is questionable in the later period prior to the stamp number disappearing around mid-1970. The cents books we received could have been on US shelves, and didn't sell, or they could have been sitting in some post-production holding / distribution area. It's hard to say whether it was one, the other or a mix and it may have been different at different times. The presence of arrival dates can lend itself to the theory that some of the books were on sale, and the presence of high grade copies can imply some weren't. But without an actual example contract from the time, detailing the arrangement, we're guessing.

It's good to guess though, as it keeps us mucking about with the things we enjoy 

[baggsey]

On 3/29/2023 at 5:10 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

 

The cents books we received could have been on US shelves, and didn't sell, or they could have been sitting in some post-production holding / distribution area. .......... But without an actual example contract from the time, detailing the arrangement, we're guessing.

 

As has been said many times on this thread, our knowledge of the distribution process is all speculation. My view is that DC and Marvel were both New York-based publishing entities, and would not have waited for the entire country to send in their returns before deciding which comics to send to the UK. I suspect that it was an East Coast regional process where comics were returned from wholesalers, undamaged.  I do not believe the comics we got in the UK ever hit newsstands or drug stores in the US. Comics from street vendors and drug stores in the US were sold SOR and comics were returned with the top cover half torn off.  I’ve seen enough of those old comics with top covers torn off in back-issue boxes in local comic stores here in Illinois.

The second question is where were the returned comics shipped to the UK from? I'm guessing that they were shipped from either New York or Baltimore to Tilbury or Liverpool. Bills of lading would have been produced in New York. 

But again, all guesswork on my part.   I'm sure that many on this thread will have read Jim Shooter's extensive blog entry on how comic distribution and returns worked in the US from the time of the mid-sixties when Mort Weisinger explained it to him.  Particularly interesting is his piece on "affadavit returns", a process which ended up with thousands on unsold copies of US comics remaining in wholesale warehouses without the need to tear off the cover, and which could be then re-sold to other markets.

It's a great read at  http://jimshooter.com/2011/11/comic-book-distribution.html/  I wonder if an email to Shooter might actually uncover a lot more information about what happened on the US side of things.

As regards the UK side of things, has anyone tried to locate the import records of T&P?  This page from familysearch.org is a god start for location English company records.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/England_Business_Records_(National_Institute)

 

[Malacoda]

On 3/29/2023 at 10:11 AM, themagicrobot said:

As someone buying comics in the early 1970s it was certainly quite a mixed up period with no guarantee I could locate the particular titles I wanted each and every month. It wasn't too big a problem as there were still more comics out there than I could afford and I had also discovered Mail Order, Fanzines and Comic Marts to get back issues.

One odd thing I will mention which still sticks in my memory. On holiday Easter 1970 I purchased three different shiny brand new Fantastic Fours in the same shop at the same time. They were numbers 91,92,93 from months earlier and were laid out on the counter with other Marvel comics with similar dates from 4 or 5 months earlier. They certainly didn't have the appearance of having been there for months. They looked brand new and cost the expected 1/- each. I was amazed more by the fact that the story continued through the three issues.

Very interesting. When you say on holiday, is this the seaside special story we hear so often?  ( I presume you weren't on holiday in downtown Basingstoke).  

As you know, this falls into the 7th wave of T&P importation when they had PV's and stamps. I am convinced the stamps arrived alongside the PV's and were not US returns that came later.  The fact that these are PV's rocking up 5 months late certainly does nothing to mess with that theory.  

These may be seaside recirculations or may just be ones that sat on the shelf. There is a massive disparity in T&P's sales regions, both in terms of how they were serviced and the relative size of the patch. My favourite example is Wales, where the depot in the south was a unit in an industrial estate in Bridgend which was big enough to make the news on a few occasions and had full time staff, including being the base for a district manager and the base of operations for a sales rep.  The 'depot' in North Wales was a lock up garage in Colwyn Bay which was used by a sales rep who serviced both North Wales and South Lancashire.  I'd imagine building a solid collection in Bridgend was quite a different proposition to Blaenau Ffestiniog. 

Please keep these anecdotes coming. These stories are the reality amidst all the fun speculation. 

 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, baggsey said:

I do not believe the comics we got in the UK ever hit newsstands or drug stores in the US

There are many examples with US arrival dates written on, proof that they had been through the Stateside retail system.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, baggsey said:

As regards the UK side of things, has anyone tried to locate the import records of T&P?  This page from familysearch.org is a god start for location English company records.

@Malacoda Richmond is leading on the T&P deep dive, Bags. He'll be all over you like in a rash in three...two....

[Malacoda]

Right, what's going on...?

[Get Marwood & I]

On 3/29/2023 at 5:35 PM, Malacoda said:

Right, what's going on...?

You should've gone with The Spanish Inquisition! But then again, we were expecting you so....

[baggsey]

On 3/29/2023 at 11:11 AM, Albert Tatlock said:

There are many examples with US arrival dates written on, proof that they had been through the Stateside retail system.

 

Well, perhaps I should not have been so definitive in my assertion, but I would venture that less than 1% of the comics we got in the UK in the 1970s had a US arrival date on them ; the overwhelming bulk of the comics (and I'm predominantly thinking DC comics) from my memory did not feature any arrival stamp, were generally crisp copies, and did not look like they had been well-thumbed past on a spinner rack in a 7-11 drugstore or a newsstand on State St, Chicago. Of course, that's all anecdotal from a perspective of 50 years hence, and also my failing 1970s memory. 

I just think that logistically, it would be far easier for any kind of low-margin returns operation to source unsold issues from a wholesaler's warehouse than to source from retail returns that had somehow escaped having the cover torn in half. But my mind changes on this all the time.....  :-)

[Get Marwood & I]

On 3/29/2023 at 5:11 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

There are many examples with US arrival dates written on, proof that they had been through the Stateside retail system.

It would need to have a UK price stamp on it too Albert, to stack up as 'proof'.