Official TMNT Speculation Thread 14 14

[valiantman]

1 hour ago, manetteska said:

On a more holistic level, with shares being offered every 3 mos, and (as of now) approx 80 shares will trade hands, this is not (again, as of now) an enterprise conducive to "increasing my money."

I'm sure there is some commission involved, so those 80 shares which trade hands end up net approx $1600?

This seems more like a fun endeavor than anything meant for real investment. So why not invest in something similar (or very similar) on a more personal level with another collector, and have more control over "seeing" your product or buying in/out?

No commission.  80 shares at $87.25 would be $6,980 from an original cost of $5,200.  The net is $1,780 since July 24th.  That's 34.2% in 3 months.

Investing $5,200 isn't an option for these collectors.  The average investment in the TMNT #1 on July 24th was $500 a person.

Edited November 3, 2020 by valiantman

[valiantman]

Trading closed - CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 settled at $85/share.  $85K total value.

89 shares traded at $85 each.

[manetteska]

46 minutes ago, valiantman said:

2 hours ago, manetteska said:

On a more holistic level, with shares being offered every 3 mos, and (as of now) approx 80 shares will trade hands, this is not (again, as of now) an enterprise conducive to "increasing my money."

I'm sure there is some commission involved, so those 80 shares which trade hands end up net approx $1600?

This seems more like a fun endeavor than anything meant for real investment. So why not invest in something similar (or very similar) on a more personal level with another collector, and have more control over "seeing" your product or buying in/out?

No commission.  80 shares at $87.25 would be $6,980 from an original cost of $5,200.  The net is $1,780 since July 24th.  That's 34.2% in 3 months.

Investing $5,200 isn't an option for these collectors.  The average investment in the TMNT #1 on July 24th was $500 a person.

Yep, that is a 34% increase in 3 months but there is a ceiling -- on many different levels.

Back to my original question: why not invest in a more personal level with a collector rather than subsidize a random company's purchase and increase their bottom line more than yours?

[valiantman]

8 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Yep, that is a 34% increase in 3 months but there is a ceiling -- on many different levels.

Back to my original question: why not invest in a more personal level with a collector rather than subsidize a random company's purchase and increase their bottom line more than yours?

What options does a collector have who has $500 and would like to invest in CGC 9.8 TMNT #1?

I don't think finding 129 other collectors to join up is feasible.  I don't think major dealers are interested in "small dollar" partners.

Putting $500 into some other TMNT book isn't nearly the same as the highest graded first printing of the first issue.

Edited November 3, 2020 by valiantman

[manetteska]

8 minutes ago, valiantman said:

17 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Yep, that is a 34% increase in 3 months but there is a ceiling -- on many different levels.

Back to my original question: why not invest in a more personal level with a collector rather than subsidize a random company's purchase and increase their bottom line more than yours?

What options does a collector have who has $500 and would like to invest in CGC 9.8 TMNT #1?

I don't think finding 129 other collectors to join up is feasible.  I don't think major dealers are interested in "small dollar" partners.

Putting $500 into some other TMNT book isn't nearly the same as the highest graded first printing of the first issue.

Instead of throwing a few fun bucks at a book one will never own and can only look at a picture of on a website (just like any other book, but doesn't require me to hand over CC info), why not use that money to invest on a smaller scale, buying books and selling for profit. Eventually (hopefully) ending up with a copy of the book; not in that highest grade, but something more than a .jpeg.

I understand one involves work -- a good amount -- and the other doesn't, but the other (Rally Rd) nets you nothing in the end.

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by manetteska
last sentence.

[valiantman]

17 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Instead of throwing a few fun bucks at a book one will never own and can only look at a picture of on a website (just like any other book, but doesn't require me to hand over CC info), why not use that money to invest on a smaller scale, buying books and selling for profit. Eventually (hopefully) ending up with a copy of the book; not in that highest grade, but something more than a .jpeg.

I understand one involves work -- a good amount -- and the other doesn't, but the other (Rally Rd) nets you nothing in the end.

 

You're describing something completely different than what is being offered.  RallyRd isn't for everyone, but taking $500 and buying and selling lesser comics all the way up to having $65,000 in cash to purchase CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 outright isn't for anyone.  Settling for a CGC 5.0 TMNT #1 third printing is one of the ridiculous suggestions that I jokingly offered earlier this morning to @GM8 's post... and here you are being serious. 

Why purchase one share of Amazon, when you could build your own company from scratch that rivals Amazon?  That's not a valid suggestion either... but owning one share of Amazon is nothing more than a printed line on a computer screen showing a share in your account.  Sounds like RallyRd.

Edited November 3, 2020 by valiantman

[manetteska]

3 minutes ago, valiantman said:

17 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Instead of throwing a few fun bucks at a book one will never own and can only look at a picture of on a website (just like any other book, but doesn't require me to hand over CC info), why not use that money to invest on a smaller scale, buying books and selling for profit. Eventually (hopefully) ending up with a copy of the book; not in that highest grade, but something more than a .jpeg.

I understand one involves work -- a good amount -- and the other doesn't, but the other (Rally Rd) nets you nothing in the end.

 

You're describing something completely different than what is being offered.  RallyRd isn't for everyone, but taking $500 and buying and selling lesser comics all the way up to having $65,000 in cash to purchase CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 outright isn't for anyone.

Why purchase one share of Amazon, when you could build your own company from scratch that rivals Amazon?  That's not a valid suggestion either... but owning one share of Amazon is nothing more than a printed line on a computer screen showing a share in your account.  Sounds like RallyRd.

Re-quoting what I said as you seemed to reply to something else. I said *a* copy of the book *not* the highest graded.

Seems like this is a random thrill to throw $20 bucks at for fun, but once someone gets into the hundreds of dollars (or thousands), there are better ways to spend money -- both for fun and for investment. For example, why buy 8 shares of a single comic? If it's to sell them and make money, you're doing it wrong. If it's for fun, just buy 1.

[valiantman]

2 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Re-quoting what I said as you seemed to reply to something else. I said *a* copy of the book *not* the highest graded.

Seems like this is a random thrill to throw $20 bucks at for fun, but once someone gets into the hundreds of dollars (or thousands), there are better ways to spend money -- both for fun and for investment. For example, why buy 8 shares of a single comic? If it's to sell them and make money, you're doing it wrong. If it's for fun, just buy 1.

I re-read your post and edited my response.  (But you quoted me before the edit.)  

9 minutes ago, valiantman said:

You're describing something completely different than what is being offered.  RallyRd isn't for everyone, but taking $500 and buying and selling lesser comics all the way up to having $65,000 in cash to purchase CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 outright isn't for anyone.  Settling for a CGC 5.0 TMNT #1 third printing is one of the ridiculous suggestions that I jokingly offered earlier this morning to @GM8 's post... and here you are being serious. 

Why purchase one share of Amazon, when you could build your own company from scratch that rivals Amazon?  That's not a valid suggestion either... but owning one share of Amazon is nothing more than a printed line on a computer screen showing a share in your account.  Sounds like RallyRd.

 

[manetteska]

37 minutes ago, valiantman said:

40 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Re-quoting what I said as you seemed to reply to something else. I said *a* copy of the book *not* the highest graded.

Seems like this is a random thrill to throw $20 bucks at for fun, but once someone gets into the hundreds of dollars (or thousands), there are better ways to spend money -- both for fun and for investment. For example, why buy 8 shares of a single comic? If it's to sell them and make money, you're doing it wrong. If it's for fun, just buy 1.

I re-read your post and edited my response.  (But you quoted me before the edit.)  

47 minutes ago, valiantman said:

You're describing something completely different than what is being offered.  RallyRd isn't for everyone, but taking $500 and buying and selling lesser comics all the way up to having $65,000 in cash to purchase CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 outright isn't for anyone.  Settling for a CGC 5.0 TMNT #1 third printing is one of the ridiculous suggestions that I jokingly offered earlier this morning to @GM8 's post... and here you are being serious. 

Why purchase one share of Amazon, when you could build your own company from scratch that rivals Amazon?  That's not a valid suggestion either... but owning one share of Amazon is nothing more than a printed line on a computer screen showing a share in your account.  Sounds like RallyRd.

 

Not sure what changed in your reply, as it still references buying a TMNT 1 9.8 which I go out of my way to say is not the endpoint.

You added a piece about buying a 3rd print if you cannot afford a first print.

I don't understand the comparison; so you are saying if a person cannot afford a first print it's laughable to instead buy a physical copy of the third print, but completely reasonable to buy a logical piece of a first print, of which you will never hold, see, or really have a full say over whether it's sold and gone in three months and now you logically own 0 shares. Yep, that makes sense.

[manetteska]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

You're describing something completely different than what is being offered.  RallyRd isn't for everyone, but taking $500 and buying and selling lesser comics all the way up to having $65,000 in cash to purchase CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 outright isn't for anyone.  Settling for a CGC 5.0 TMNT #1 third printing is one of the ridiculous suggestions that I jokingly offered earlier this morning to @GM8 's post... and here you are being serious. 

Why purchase one share of Amazon, when you could build your own company from scratch that rivals Amazon?  That's not a valid suggestion either... but owning one share of Amazon is nothing more than a printed line on a computer screen showing a share in your account.  Sounds like RallyRd.

And if you think buying and selling comics to make a profit is equivalent to starting up a company to rival Amazon... what happened to you man? You used to make sense.

[valiantman]

24 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Not sure what changed in your reply, as it still references buying a TMNT 1 9.8 which I go out of my way to say is not the endpoint.

You added a piece about buying a 3rd print if you cannot afford a first print.

I don't understand the comparison; so you are saying if a person cannot afford a first print it's laughable to instead buy a physical copy of the third print, but completely reasonable to buy a logical piece of a first print, of which you will never hold, see, or really have a full say over whether it's sold and gone in three months and now you logically own 0 shares. Yep, that makes sense.

It's laughable to say that "Owning a CGC 5.0 TMNT #1 third printing is preferable to owning part of a CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 when you would like to own a full CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 but you can't afford it."  It is an alternative, but it isn't preferable to partial ownership in the goal.

8 minutes ago, manetteska said:

And if you think buying and selling comics to make a profit is equivalent to starting up a company to rival Amazon... what happened to you man? You used to make sense.

Buying and selling comics from some tiny starting dollar amount with the hopes of achieving a dream ownership in a "never will I be able to afford it" comic book is not reasonable.  It's as reasonable as pretending you can take on Amazon if you just work hard enough.

No, it's not possible.  It's not preferable to settle for a mid-grade third printing.  It's perfectly reasonable to pursue partial ownership in the real thing.  Whether that's a share of Amazon (because you can't start up a rival company) or a share of CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 (because you can't afford the full comic), they're both just a line printed on a computer screen when you look at your "current holdings".

They're the same thing... except I "feel something" connected to my childhood and goals when I own a share of CGC 9.8 TMNT #1.  I "feel nothing" when I own stocks.

Edited November 3, 2020 by valiantman

[manetteska]

16 minutes ago, valiantman said:

It's laughable to say that "Owning a CGC 5.0 TMNT #1 third printing is preferable to owning part of a CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 when you would like to own a full CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 but you can't afford it."  It is an alternative, but it isn't preferable to partial ownership in the goal.

Quoting this for posterity. The above is completely subjective; many people realize, as prices rise, that their "grail" will not happen (barring a lotto win) and seek the next-best alternative which (to them) is an actual comic. You know, the thing they wanted in the first place.

16 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Buying and selling comics from some tiny starting dollar amount with the hopes of achieving a dream ownership in a "never will I be able to afford it" comic book is not reasonable.  It's as reasonable as pretending you can take on Amazon if you just work hard enough.

People need to set realistic expectations. You say it yourself: it's a dream, so stop dreaming of that 9.8 and figure out what you can get. Yes, starting from $500 you will not make it to $65,000; but starting from $500 you can get to $2000 with some knowledge and elbow grease and get a second print. A (low grade) second print just sold for $900. There are a lot of points between $1000 and $65k, but you just want to jump to the end, everything else be damned.

So tell me what happens to your dream when other shareholders decide to sell the 9.8 and you are left with $150 profit. To me, my own copy of a third print doesn't sound that funny in comparison.

Edited November 3, 2020 by manetteska
typo.

[valiantman]

You don't like the idea of partial ownership.  I do.  We've already established that everyone isn't going to agree on anything, whether it's which books to buy, which books to keep, when to sell, or whether or not to do what someone else says is "best" (for them).

Regardless...

It has always been possible to have legitimate, legal ownership in a company that is traded as shares.  No one says owning shares in something you can't "hold in your hands" is wrong.  The company tanks and you own nothing.  Happens all the time.

It has always been possible to have legitimate, legal ownership in a mid-grade copy of TMNT #1 reprint.  No one is saying comic ownership isn't an option.  The comic isn't the best, isn't the original, but it exists in your hands.  Yippee.

It is now possible to have legitimate, legal ownership in an LLC whose sole asset is a CGC 9.8 TMNT #1.  It is 1,000 shares at $85/share, as of today.  That is possible through RallyRd.com  

Partial ownership in very expensive comic books (outside of some big dealer private partnership) is a newer concept than buying reprint comics or shares of stock. 

Best, better, whatever, is just subjective.  I think reprints are a weak alternative.  You think it's preferable.

We're both right because we both do what we want.

Edited November 3, 2020 by valiantman

[manetteska]

24 minutes ago, valiantman said:

You don't like the idea of partial ownership.  I do.  We've already established that everyone isn't going to agree on anything, whether it's which books to buy, which books to keep, when to sell, or whether or not to do what someone else says is "best" (for them).

Regardless...

It has always been possible to have legitimate, legal ownership in a company that is traded as shares.  No one says owning shares in something you can't "hold in your hands" is wrong.  The company tanks and you own nothing.  Happens all the time.

It has always been possible to have legitimate, legal ownership in a mid-grade copy of TMNT #1 reprint.  No one is saying comic ownership isn't an option.  The comic isn't the best, isn't the original, but it exists in your hands.  Yippee.

It is now possible to have legitimate, legal ownership in an LLC whose sole asset is a CGC 9.8 TMNT #1.  It is 1,000 shares at $85/share, as of today.  That is possible through RallyRd.com  

Partial ownership in very expensive comic books (outside of some big dealer private partnership) is a newer concept than buying reprint comics or shares of stock. 

Best, better, whatever, is just subjective.  I think reprints are a weak alternative.  You think it's preferable.

We're both right because we both do what we want.

So tell me what happens to your dream when other shareholders decide to sell the 9.8 and you are left with $150 profit.

Sorry if it sounds odd to you for people on a comic forum to want to own comic books. 

[Icculus308win]

I ❤️ owning books

[valiantman]

4 hours ago, manetteska said:

So tell me what happens to your dream when other shareholders decide to sell the 9.8 and you are left with $150 profit.

Sorry if it sounds odd to you for people on a comic forum to want to own comic books. 

I own comics.

I have a thousand CGC slabs.

I don't own any worth $50k.

I do own $500 worth of a comic worth $50k.

I like it more than $500 worth of slabs.

[manetteska]

2 minutes ago, valiantman said:

I own comics.

I have a thousand CGC slabs.

I don't own any worth $50k.

I do own $500 worth of a comic worth $50k.

I like it more than $500 worth of slabs.

Still not answering the question at hand.   

[valiantman]

Just now, manetteska said:

Still not answering the question at hand.   

What question?

How will I feel when I have a thousand slabs and a healthy profit on a major key?

Ready to buy shares in another.

[manetteska]

8 hours ago, valiantman said:

What question?

How will I feel when I have a thousand slabs and a healthy profit on a major key?

Ready to buy shares in another.

$150 is a healthy profit on your “dream” and most likely never being able to buy in again ?

[valiantman]

14 minutes ago, manetteska said:

$150 is a healthy profit on your “dream” and most likely never being able to buy in again ?

Where did you get $150?

If you're talking about the fact that TMNT #1 is currently +30% after three months in the RallyRd system, yes, that's $150 on a $500 investment, but the book isn't being sold.

I will either retain my partial ownership in CGC 9.8 TMNT #1 for at least another three months (until the next trading date) or they will receive an offer higher than the +30% before that date.

Both of those are preferable options for me, compared to owning some other $500 TMNT book outright.

Furthermore, I also have partial ownership in CGC 8.0 Amazing Fantasy #15, CGC 8.0 Incredible Hulk #1, CGC 8.5 Fantastic Four #1, and CGC 9.4 Tales of Suspense #39.

As I said, if shareholders vote to take a profit on CGC 9.8 TMNT #1, then I'll be ready to put that money into shares of another "Impossible to own outright" major key.

I'll also continue to own this "less than the best" copy of TMNT #1 outright. 

That's right --- I own a CGC 9.6 TMNT #1 outright --- and I also have $500 in shares of a CGC 9.8 TMNT #1. 

Why am I not satisfied with the CGC 9.6 TMNT #1?  Because there are certain comics where I wish I could put more money into them.  You know, like owning a few more shares in something you believe in.

You continue to argue that I'm making some kind of mistake not putting my $500 into lesser a TMNT book or buying and selling for a while to get maybe a couple thousand dollars for lesser TMNT books, and I continue to say that I'm perfectly happy with what I'm doing with my collection - books and shares of bigger books.

Do you have any other advice?  Maybe that people should should stop buying into gold funds when they can't wear the gold?  Perhaps no one should do any real estate investing if they aren't going to live on the property?

I'll be sure to let those multi-billion dollar partial ownership industries know, if you think they should dissolve their shareholder system.