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Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBO Max (3/18/21)
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Started by Bosco685,

2,339 posts in this topic

theCapraAegagrus

theCapraAegagrus

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On 7/26/2022 at 12:44 PM, Bosco685 said:

Did you meet Zack Snyder, and he said something to you that was offensive? I only ask as this seems more personal than a director that delivered some comic book movies.

I just think he wants more of the same 5 Superman movies that preceded Man of Steel. That's the thing; They already exist.

Superman Returns didn't get the same reception as Reeve's stuff did in the 70's/80's because it's a different time, so they 'reinvented' the wheel a bit and Man of Steel worked much better for them.

It looks like he has more beef with BvS, though, so this will be interesting. I'm guessing that Jay and I will agree more there, but I'm not looking forward to it if it is another situation of, "rewrite the whole movie".

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jaybuck43

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On 7/26/2022 at 12:39 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I'm just going to say that these ideas don't fit the internal logic for Man of Steel. You're practically rewriting the entire thing, and that doesn't lead to an engaging discussion. You have to write-in how he knows about Red Solar Lamps. How they work, how to make them, etc. Then, you have a villain that isn't a threat, so Superman has no real obstacle to overcome. Zod wouldn't want to become Doomsday, either, as he would want to search the universe for another World Engine and go through the same trek until he does die (prolonging the inevitable).

I'm going to say it: Repeat villains are trash, so I loathe the idea you wrote for Zod, and I'm sure that most others would agree.

Not sure how changing one scene is practically rewriting the entire thing.  All you've done is eliminate a 5 minute or less fight scene where Superman snaps Zods neck.  The outcome has no lasting impact on the DCU (it's not like Supes deals with it at all in BvS or JL) and the scene itself is almost superfluous as I've said, the major climax itself is the whole fight with the world engine.  You don't have to write in how he knows about red solar lamps, you ALREADY did that within the movie.  Superman was on the krpytonian ship, he was told over and over again "Here you're just like us".  He himself "loses" his powers on the ship.  Faora tells Lois she can't live in the environment.  Heck, you ALREADY have a ship on earth (the scout ship).  They could have just made that the prison (activate the environment so that its krpytonian in nature and then chain him up.  Done.  No additions needed, no changing the internal logic.  

Numerous times Zod tells him "you'll have to kill me".  It's presented as a Fait Accompli.  There's no unwinable scenario for Superman.  He's Captain Kirk taking the Kobayashi Maru.  If anything, killing Zod is what flys in the face of the internal story you're trying to tell with Jonathan.  The entire arc of Johnathan is that he is WRONG.  Every action he takes throughout the film is actually the wrong advice.   Hide who you are, don't use your powers, don't do this.  Etc.  The ultimate scene (which still makes no sense, because Jonathan goes to save the dog and only dies from the tornado because the car hit his car and broke his leg so he can't run back after freeing the dog, Clark VOLUNTEERS to go save the dog, and have Jonathan take Martha under the underpass.  Clark doesn't need to use his powers for this (or at least not in a visible way that people would see)  He could have jogged over to the car (like Jonathan) gotten in the car, freed the dog, gotten out, and jogged back to the underpass.  Jonathan only dies because he was injured during the save attempt, which Clark wouldn't have been.  He would have then easily been able to get back to the underpass and all three would have survived.  But whatever.) where Jonathan dies is supposed to further instill his warning "Don't be who you can be, even to the detriment of what you want."   It's only after Kal/Clark meets Fake Jor-el  does he start to understand who he can be, and what he can aspire to be.  I mean it's QUITE LITERALLY the Hero's Journey.  Clark attempts to live a normal life (Deep sea fishing, working in a bar, etc.etc.) Isolated and alone, never using his powers unless he absolutely has to.  Then there is a call to adventure (he overhears the military guys talking about the ship in the arctic circle)  There, he meets a mentor (Jor-El) who teaches him about how special he is (I mean at one point he literally says you can save the world).  He embarks on a quest (learning the extent of his powers, flying etc.)  He crosses the point of no return (turns himself into Zod) faces and loses several trials, ultimately embraces who he is, and is victorious.  Jonathan is the Uncle Owen of the DCU, and Jor-El is Obi-Wan.  So within the story, sorry I don't see it.

As to repeat villains.  Ok, I have no problem with you not liking the idea of repeat villains, your opinion and you're entitled to it.  Me, I think it depends on the story you tell with it.  Batman vs. Joker for the 3,000th time. Yea it's stale.  Batman defeats Joker, locks him up in arkham, Joker escapes and murders Batman's ward causing Batman to snap and finally kill Joker?   Interesting story even though it's the same villain.  Again, I think if you have Zod angry and despondent because of the loss, motivated to literally do anything to get his revenge, and joins forces with Lex to become Doomsday, it adds to that characters development so much more than "Zombie kryptonian on a rampage".  But, again, to each their own.

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theCapraAegagrus

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On 7/26/2022 at 2:08 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Not sure how changing one scene is practically rewriting the entire thing.  All you've done is eliminate a 5 minute or less fight scene where Superman snaps Zods neck.  The outcome has no lasting impact on the DCU (it's not like Supes deals with it at all in BvS or JL) and the scene itself is almost superfluous as I've said, the major climax itself is the whole fight with the world engine.  You don't have to write in how he knows about red solar lamps, you ALREADY did that within the movie.  Superman was on the krpytonian ship, he was told over and over again "Here you're just like us".  He himself "loses" his powers on the ship.  Faora tells Lois she can't live in the environment.  Heck, you ALREADY have a ship on earth (the scout ship).  They could have just made that the prison (activate the environment so that its krpytonian in nature and then chain him up.  Done.  No additions needed, no changing the internal logic.  

Numerous times Zod tells him "you'll have to kill me".  It's presented as a Fait Accompli.  There's no unwinable scenario for Superman.  He's Captain Kirk taking the Kobayashi Maru.  If anything, killing Zod is what flys in the face of the internal story you're trying to tell with Jonathan.  The entire arc of Johnathan is that he is WRONG.  Every action he takes throughout the film is actually the wrong advice.   Hide who you are, don't use your powers, don't do this.  Etc.  The ultimate scene (which still makes no sense, because Jonathan goes to save the dog and only dies from the tornado because the car hit his car and broke his leg so he can't run back after freeing the dog, Clark VOLUNTEERS to go save the dog, and have Jonathan take Martha under the underpass.  Clark doesn't need to use his powers for this (or at least not in a visible way that people would see)  He could have jogged over to the car (like Jonathan) gotten in the car, freed the dog, gotten out, and jogged back to the underpass.  Jonathan only dies because he was injured during the save attempt, which Clark wouldn't have been.  He would have then easily been able to get back to the underpass and all three would have survived.  But whatever.) where Jonathan dies is supposed to further instill his warning "Don't be who you can be, even to the detriment of what you want."   It's only after Kal/Clark meets Fake Jor-el  does he start to understand who he can be, and what he can aspire to be.  I mean it's QUITE LITERALLY the Hero's Journey.  Clark attempts to live a normal life (Deep sea fishing, working in a bar, etc.etc.) Isolated and alone, never using his powers unless he absolutely has to.  Then there is a call to adventure (he overhears the military guys talking about the ship in the arctic circle)  There, he meets a mentor (Jor-El) who teaches him about how special he is (I mean at one point he literally says you can save the world).  He embarks on a quest (learning the extent of his powers, flying etc.)  He crosses the point of no return (turns himself into Zod) faces and loses several trials, ultimately embraces who he is, and is victorious.  Jonathan is the Uncle Owen of the DCU, and Jor-El is Obi-Wan.  So within the story, sorry I don't see it.

As to repeat villains.  Ok, I have no problem with you not liking the idea of repeat villains, your opinion and you're entitled to it.  Me, I think it depends on the story you tell with it.  Batman vs. Joker for the 3,000th time. Yea it's stale.  Batman defeats Joker, locks him up in arkham, Joker escapes and murders Batman's ward causing Batman to snap and finally kill Joker?   Interesting story even though it's the same villain.  Again, I think if you have Zod angry and despondent because of the loss, motivated to literally do anything to get his revenge, and joins forces with Lex to become Doomsday, it adds to that characters development so much more than "Zombie kryptonian on a rampage".  But, again, to each their own.

"One scene"? You're joking, right? If Zod is no threat, there's no movie. "No lasting effect"? It sets up Luthor to create a Doomsday clone. No, the major climax is the 10+ minute sequence of Superman and Zod fighting, as the conflict is not over. The World Engine isn't a red solar lamp, it's a planetary terraforming machine. The scout ship does not have that technology. See? This is re-writing the entire movie.

Holy s**t dude, Jonathan is not wrong. Perry White even reinforces this fact to Lois, and BvS proves Jon right. I'm done. I'm not reading the rest. I'm not going to write a fan-fiction with you.

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jaybuck43

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On 7/26/2022 at 2:16 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

"One scene"? You're joking, right? If Zod is no threat, there's no movie. "No lasting effect"? It sets up Luthor to create a Doomsday clone. No, the major climax is the 10+ minute sequence of Superman and Zod fighting, as the conflict is not over. The World Engine isn't a red solar lamp, it's a planetary terraforming machine. The scout ship does not have that technology. See? This is re-writing the entire movie.

Holy s**t dude, Jonathan is not wrong. Perry White even reinforces this fact to Lois, and BvS proves Jon right. I'm done. I'm not reading the rest. I'm not going to write a fan-fiction with you.

I think either I'm not being clear or you need to do what I did and rewatch the film lol.   Zod gives his soliloquy (which I said, is kept) at 2 hours 2 minutes 16 seconds.  At 2 Hours 8 minutes and 49 seconds, we see the satellite dishes for intelligence gathering and the start of the "drone drop" scene.  That means the entire "Zod" fight that I am advocating cutting is 6 minutes 33 seconds in length.  Is there a Snyder Cut of Man of Steel with a 10+ minute sequence of them fighting that I'm not seeing on HBO MAX?  In comparison, Zod orders to "Bring the phantom drive online" at 1 hour, 43 minutes 36 seconds, Christopher Maloni crashes the ship and saves the world with an assist from Superman at 1 hour 59 minutes, 57 seconds.  So the entire World Engine sequence runs 16 minutes 21 seconds, about 2.5 times the length of the Zod fight.  All the hallmarks of a climax are in the World Engine sequence (Life or Death consequences, a violent battle featuring the main characters, the loss of major characters (Maloni and Dr. Blonski are presumed dead or at the very least, trapped in the Phantom Zone with the other Kryptonians) to morn while there is a victory to celebrate.  It's the natural end of the film.  

I'm talking about a lasting effect ON SUPERMAN.  He's not traumatized by the action, he doesn't question himself, it doesn't cause him sleepless nights (Lois, what happens if I go bad?  What if I make the wrong decision) etc.  The fact that they went back and decided to use Dead Zod as Doomsday is cool and all, but I don't think of it as "consequences" or lasting effects.   If Superman had left him alive the same consequences could/would have occurred, so its not a direct line from "he chose to kill zod" to "so he created Doomsday".

There are two ships and a world engine (three total pieces of Kryptonian tech)  1) Zod's ship which we SEE creates a kryptonian atmosphere for them to exist in, and we SEE that such an atmosphere strips clark of his powers (which then must do the same to Zod et. al.) 2) The Scout Ship.  Zod goes there to get the genesis chamber and it is the ship that superman crashes (but still accepts and is later salvaged so we know it survived).  Again we KNOW it is capable of generating a kryptonian environment because it was used thousands of years ago by Kryptonians to travel around the worlds and they wouldn't know that Earth was safe to breath (heck Zod and his team even admitted a "weakness" when they were exposed to earth's atmosphere.  3) The World Enginge which yea, supes nuked that sucker.  So... we've ALREADY SEEN in the film that the scout ship could be used as a "prison", without any changing of the film AT ALL.  

 

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theCapraAegagrus

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On 7/26/2022 at 2:44 PM, jaybuck43 said:

I think either I'm not being clear or you need to do what I did and rewatch the film lol.   Zod gives his soliloquy (which I said, is kept) at 2 hours 2 minutes 16 seconds.  At 2 Hours 8 minutes and 49 seconds, we see the satellite dishes for intelligence gathering and the start of the "drone drop" scene.  That means the entire "Zod" fight that I am advocating cutting is 6 minutes 33 seconds in length.  Is there a Snyder Cut of Man of Steel with a 10+ minute sequence of them fighting that I'm not seeing on HBO MAX?  In comparison, Zod orders to "Bring the phantom drive online" at 1 hour, 43 minutes 36 seconds, Christopher Maloni crashes the ship and saves the world with an assist from Superman at 1 hour 59 minutes, 57 seconds.  So the entire World Engine sequence runs 16 minutes 21 seconds, about 2.5 times the length of the Zod fight.  All the hallmarks of a climax are in the World Engine sequence (Life or Death consequences, a violent battle featuring the main characters, the loss of major characters (Maloni and Dr. Blonski are presumed dead or at the very least, trapped in the Phantom Zone with the other Kryptonians) to morn while there is a victory to celebrate.  It's the natural end of the film.  

I'm talking about a lasting effect ON SUPERMAN.  He's not traumatized by the action, he doesn't question himself, it doesn't cause him sleepless nights (Lois, what happens if I go bad?  What if I make the wrong decision) etc.  The fact that they went back and decided to use Dead Zod as Doomsday is cool and all, but I don't think of it as "consequences" or lasting effects.   If Superman had left him alive the same consequences could/would have occurred, so its not a direct line from "he chose to kill zod" to "so he created Doomsday".

There are two ships and a world engine (three total pieces of Kryptonian tech)  1) Zod's ship which we SEE creates a kryptonian atmosphere for them to exist in, and we SEE that such an atmosphere strips clark of his powers (which then must do the same to Zod et. al.) 2) The Scout Ship.  Zod goes there to get the genesis chamber and it is the ship that superman crashes (but still accepts and is later salvaged so we know it survived).  Again we KNOW it is capable of generating a kryptonian environment because it was used thousands of years ago by Kryptonians to travel around the worlds and they wouldn't know that Earth was safe to breath (heck Zod and his team even admitted a "weakness" when they were exposed to earth's atmosphere.  3) The World Enginge which yea, supes nuked that sucker.  So... we've ALREADY SEEN in the film that the scout ship could be used as a "prison", without any changing of the film AT ALL.  

 

I've seen the film dozens of times, so that's not necessary. Superman defeating the World Engine (an inanimate object) is not a climax. Period.

Superman did the right thing. There's no need to question himself. There are lasting effects on the DCEU because of Zod's invasion, and death. Doomsday kills Superman, kick-starting Steppenwolf's invasion. These are textbook consequences (a result or effect of an action or condition). Zod staying alive is no-stakes, as in your fantasy he is no threat, so returning would mean nothing really. There is nothing to suggest that the ancient scout ships can change atmospherics. There were dead bodies on the scout ship. The scout ship has also never been shown to be useful as a prison.

You want to write an entirely different movie.

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Bosco685

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Someone was asking me the other day if the Snyder Cut did any decent disc sales when it came out.

Since the UK is where that kicked off, it was #1 for weeks.

Warner’s ‘Zack Snyder’s Justice League’ Returns Atop U.K. Home Entertainment Chart Following DVD/Blu-ray Disc Release

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Warner Bros.’ Zack Snyder’s Justice League returned to the top spot on the U.K. home entertainment weekly Official Film Chart through June 2, following the film’s release on DVD and Blu-ray Disc.

 

Scoring double the sales of its closest competition, the Snyder Cut marks its fourth total week at the top with 94% of its sales tally made up of packaged media. Finishing No. 2, Tom & Jerry holds tight in the runner-up spot, also with notable physical sales.

Nope. Nobody wanted this movie.

:nyah:

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Bosco685

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On 8/31/2022 at 7:01 AM, media_junkie said:

That really surprises me, that movie sucked.  Even my kids thought it wasn't very good.

It is amazing what audiences some nostalgia brands will bring out to see if modern releases capture the old magic.

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Bosco685

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On 8/31/2022 at 8:27 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Clickbait sites are running with, "executives regret releasing the Snyder Cut". Why? Because it revealed their incompetence? It's probably just salty ex-WB employees.

I saw those. It is the old WB regime behind those.

  1. They didn't want to take advantage of Snyder Cut's potential franchise-building themes directly
  2. Cancelled the New Gods movie that could have been a buildup on Darkseid from the Snyder Cut
  3. Published an interview article (public statement piece) on the morning of the 5th day of its release (March 18, 2021) that this is it - you aren't getting any follow-up from this film.

WarnerMedia’s Ann Sarnoff on ‘Zack Snyder’s Justice League’ and DC’s Future (March 22, 2021)

These folks made a bigger mess for themselves by being so salty and protective of their executive brand based on early decisions. Now they are trying to do damage control for their future roles by throwing further trash at the Snyder Cut releaser. To include implying the majority of those demanding the film (13%???) were all bots.

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theCapraAegagrus

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The Amazons were so badass in this movie.

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Daughters of Themyscira, show him your fear!

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We have no fear!!!!

Very strange to consider how or why that part of the scene was to be left on the cutting room floor. It gave me chills from the Wonder Woman teaser for ZSJL.

I liked that they dived into Wonder Woman's world much more than Aquaman's too, even without considering that it was mostly for Wan to explore it. The Amazons put up a big fight and there's an emotional connection. The Atlanteans got destroyed and Aquaman doesn't much care. A tale of two cities...

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