Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBO Max (3/18/21) 4 4

[jaybuck43]

On 7/25/2022 at 2:03 PM, ▫️ said:

Right, because Superman has never killed before in comics or movies. Like Batman has never killed anyone or used a gun. Bro, do you even nerd?

Sure Batman used a gun in the first handful of Tec's.  Killed the giants by hanging them.  Don't disagree.  But the "general" concept is he doesn't use guns.  I read Byrne's Superman.  No biggie.  I don't like it in the movie.  Same like I didn't like the idea of changing Pa Kent's death.  The whole concept of Pa Kent dying by a heart attack sets up the idea that with all of his powers, there are still some things he is powerless about. He's not God.  In the Donner film, it's tragic and heartbreaking.  In the MoS ridiculousness, it makes NO sense.  "Well clark you COULD have just zoomed in and saved him, and flown so fast noone saw it, or maybe just blown the tornado away with your superbreath, but no i'm just gonna shake ya off and commit suicide by Tornado."  

[▫️]

On 7/25/2022 at 10:13 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Sure Batman used a gun in the first handful of Tec's.  Killed the giants by hanging them.  Don't disagree.  But the "general" concept is he doesn't use guns.  I read Byrne's Superman.  No biggie.  I don't like it in the movie.  Same like I didn't like the idea of changing Pa Kent's death.  The whole concept of Pa Kent dying by a heart attack sets up the idea that with all of his powers, there are still some things he is powerless about. He's not God.  In the Donner film, it's tragic and heartbreaking.  In the MoS ridiculousness, it makes NO sense.  "Well clark you COULD have just zoomed in and saved him, and flown so fast noone saw it, or maybe just blown the tornado away with your superbreath, but no i'm just gonna shake ya off and commit suicide by Tornado."  

Agreed, I didn’t like Pa Kents death in MOS at all. But I can find things in most movies I would have changed. Overall, Man of Steel was one hell of a comic book movie ride for me. Absolute best superpowered fights with the destruction to match. Sure thousands died but I don’t want Joe’s parachuting from every plane Cobra shoots down. 

[▫️]

On 7/25/2022 at 10:13 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Sure Batman used a gun in the first handful of Tec's.  Killed the giants by hanging them.  Don't disagree.  But the "general" concept is he doesn't use guns.  I read Byrne's Superman.  No biggie.  I don't like it in the movie.  Same like I didn't like the idea of changing Pa Kent's death.  The whole concept of Pa Kent dying by a heart attack sets up the idea that with all of his powers, there are still some things he is powerless about. He's not God.  In the Donner film, it's tragic and heartbreaking.  In the MoS ridiculousness, it makes NO sense.  "Well clark you COULD have just zoomed in and saved him, and flown so fast noone saw it, or maybe just blown the tornado away with your superbreath, but no i'm just gonna shake ya off and commit suicide by Tornado."  

Oh wow, I’m not positive but that Iron Man #1 in your sigline looks like the one I sold over a decade ago. Unless you submitted it for the signature.

[jaybuck43]

On 7/25/2022 at 3:27 PM, ▫️ said:

Oh wow, I’m not positive but that Iron Man #1 in your sigline looks like the one I sold over a decade ago. Unless you submitted it for the signature.

Don't think so.  I bought it raw at Zapp Comics in NJ in 2012 and had Stan sign it at 2012 NYCC.

[▫️]

On 7/25/2022 at 10:34 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Don't think so.  I bought it raw at Zapp Comics in NJ in 2012 and had Stan sign it at 2012 NYCC.

Yeah, I just looked at the census as well and there’s a few there. I had one submitted for Gene and one for Stan. Wish I held on to them.

[Bosco685]

On 7/25/2022 at 3:13 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Sure Batman used a gun in the first handful of Tec's.  Killed the giants by hanging them.  Don't disagree.  But the "general" concept is he doesn't use guns.  I read Byrne's Superman.  No biggie.  I don't like it in the movie.  Same like I didn't like the idea of changing Pa Kent's death.  The whole concept of Pa Kent dying by a heart attack sets up the idea that with all of his powers, there are still some things he is powerless about. He's not God.  In the Donner film, it's tragic and heartbreaking.  In the MoS ridiculousness, it makes NO sense.  "Well clark you COULD have just zoomed in and saved him, and flown so fast noone saw it, or maybe just blown the tornado away with your superbreath, but no i'm just gonna shake ya off and commit suicide by Tornado."  

If everyone held up comic books to the movie screens like what is outlined here, quite a few films wouldn't pass muster. Thanos courting the divine embodiment of Death as part of the comic book version of The Infinity Gauntlet is altered to be an altruistic being wanting to save half the universe so families will flock to the films more was quite the massive stretch.

But when Marvel doesn't actually follow the true direction of a comic book story it is cool and honoring the stories yet DC must do exactly what is in the comic books? Come on. Folks need to be more even-handed than that. Even Zack Snyder noted his story direction was Elseworld in its influences. So he was honoring yet making the stories his own.

[Bosco685]

And it goes to show how the 'magic MCU blackboard of future ideas' doesn't actually stick to its own plans. No matter how much people assume it all was envisioned years before.

Marvel Studios was going down the path of the comic book direction. But it traded out that earlier and darker path for a bright, dropping jokes in the heat of battles direction instead for bigger box office results. So we get things like Phase IV.

[Zonker]

On 7/25/2022 at 4:10 PM, Bosco685 said:

If everyone held up comic books to the movie screens like what is outlined here, quite a few films wouldn't pass muster. Thanos courting the divine embodiment of Death as part of the comic book version of The Infinity Gauntlet is altered to be an altruistic being wanting to save half the universe so families will flock to the films more was quite the massive stretch.

But when Marvel doesn't actually follow the true direction of a comic book story it is cool and honoring the stories yet DC must do exactly what is in the comic books? Come on. Folks need to be more even-handed than that. Even Zack Snyder noted his story direction was Elseworld in its influences. So he was honoring yet making the stories his own.

I think it's actually different, and here's why: The Batman doesn't kill in his post-1940 appearances because he doesn't want to create any more orphans.  If he is able to restrain himself from killing the Joker or killing Joe Chill, there is no reason for him to kill a bunch of thugs willy-nilly in a warehouse or parking garage or wherever that was in BvS.  Realistic?  Um, no.  But then again he's wearing a flying rodent costume, so realism has its limits in this scenario.  Likewise Superman shouldn't kill because setting himself up as executioner with all of his other powers elevates him to godhood. Central to the premise is Superman is just a midwestern farm boy at heart, and this keeps his hubris in check. Without that, Superman devolves into Alan Moore's Miracleman, a different character altogether.  I didn't like John Byrne's take on Superman-as-executioner, but at least in the comics, Superman's remorse led to a 6-month space exile, so there were at least some consequences to his actions.  

In my opinion, you can bend these characters only so far without breaking them beyond recognition, and again in my opinion.MoS & BvS went too far.  (I liked ZSJL though!)  Maybe you feel the same way about the MCU bending the character of Thanos beyond the breaking point, I don't know....

[jaybuck43]

On 7/25/2022 at 4:10 PM, Bosco685 said:

If everyone held up comic books to the movie screens like what is outlined here, quite a few films wouldn't pass muster. Thanos courting the divine embodiment of Death as part of the comic book version of The Infinity Gauntlet is altered to be an altruistic being wanting to save half the universe so families will flock to the films more was quite the massive stretch.

But when Marvel doesn't actually follow the true direction of a comic book story it is cool and honoring the stories yet DC must do exactly what is in the comic books? Come on. Folks need to be more even-handed than that. Even Zack Snyder noted his story direction was Elseworld in its influences. So he was honoring yet making the stories his own.

I'm all for changes.  I'm NOT for changes that drastically change who the character is for the worse.  Turning Thanos into an "ends justify the means" concept ENHANCES the character.  Instead of him being a lovesick dope who's like "I know, I'll commit genocide to get Death to love me", you get the (overarching and long-lasting ramifications) of THANOS WAS RIGHT.  You've added depth to the character, you've created a motivation for him.  That's why people mock Snyder.  There's no build, there's no justification, there's just the "toy box method".  (A kid has a toy box full of action figures and just smashes them into one another for no reason other than he has them). With Thanos you built 20 something films to GET to that final battle.  What was the justification for Batman to fight Superman?  Or to stop the fight? o right because there moms have the same name! Guess we're best friends now  You want superman to kill someone?  FINE, I'm ok with that IF you build to that.  There are plenty of comics and movies that get that concept "right".  Robert Kirkman did it with Invincible (with Angstrom Levy basically giving Invincible no choice but to kill him).  Heck Civil War hit it well with the beginning scene at MIT with Iron Man realizing the weight of what happened and his culpabilities in deaths, and being Pro Registration.  And the ramifications of that movie stretched ALL THE WAY through Endgame.  If you stretched it out where Superman spares zod multiple times and he keeps coming back and causing deaths and he realizes he has no choice but to snap his neck and end it, it has more of a heft to it.  Rewatch the Zod death scene... all Supes had to do was put his right hand over Zod's eyes and... that's it.  Threat is over.  No need to kill him.  Let's be realistic, ZS did it because he thought it would be cool/get attention.  It doesn't fit the narrative, it was never picked up again, it didn't do anything.  I mean, they didn't even have a scene where he is talking to Lois about how much he regretted it or how he can't sleep at night or something.  Nope, just dropped it.  Meanwhile, marvel is STILL dealing with the ramifications of those who agree with Thanos.  Again, all for changes, where it IMPROVES the story.  Like I said, I ADORE Damien Lindolloff's continuation of Watchman.  He made LOADS of changes.  Almost all of them for the better.  MCU has made tons of changes, most of them have improved the characters and stories (or made them make more sense, because within the realm of the story you're trying to tell, it's kinda hard to have a giant global entity.  

[Bosco685]

On 7/25/2022 at 5:00 PM, Zonker said:

I think it's actually different, and here's why: The Batman doesn't kill in his post-1940 appearances because he doesn't want to create any more orphans.  If he is able to restrain himself from killing the Joker or killing Joe Chill, there is no reason for him to kill a bunch of thugs willy-nilly in a warehouse or parking garage or wherever that was in BvS.  Realistic?  Um, no.  But then again he's wearing a flying rodent costume, so realism has its limits in this scenario.  Likewise Superman shouldn't kill because setting himself up as executioner with all of his other powers elevates him to godhood. Central to the premise is Superman is just a midwestern farm boy at heart, and this keeps his hubris in check. Without that, Superman devolves into Alan Moore's Miracleman, a different character altogether.  I didn't like John Byrne's take on Superman-as-executioner, but at least in the comics, Superman's remorse led to a 6-month space exile, so there were at least some consequences to his actions.  

In my opinion, you can bend these characters only so far without breaking them beyond recognition, and again in my opinion.MoS & BvS went too far.  (I liked ZSJL though!)  Maybe you feel the same way about the MCU bending the character of Thanos beyond the breaking point, I don't know....

And how did Zack Snyder's Clark Kent not honor his Midwestern roots? Even when Zod forces him in a situation to choose between his people and the adopted Earth, his anguish at being forced into the situation tears at his soul. Maybe that slipped by for some. I don't know...

But it is interesting people are still talking about these movies even today.

[Bosco685]

On 7/25/2022 at 5:06 PM, jaybuck43 said:

I'm all for changes.  I'm NOT for changes that drastically change who the character is for the worse.  Turning Thanos into an "ends justify the means" concept ENHANCES the character.  Instead of him being a lovesick dope who's like "I know, I'll commit genocide to get Death to love me", you get the (overarching and long-lasting ramifications) of THANOS WAS RIGHT.  You've added depth to the character, you've created a motivation for him.  That's why people mock Snyder.  There's no build, there's no justification, there's just the "toy box method".  (A kid has a toy box full of action figures and just smashes them into one another for no reason other than he has them). With Thanos you built 20 something films to GET to that final battle.  What was the justification for Batman to fight Superman?  Or to stop the fight? o right because there moms have the same name! Guess we're best friends now  You want superman to kill someone?  FINE, I'm ok with that IF you build to that.  There are plenty of comics and movies that get that concept "right".  Robert Kirkman did it with Invincible (with Angstrom Levy basically giving Invincible no choice but to kill him).  Heck Civil War hit it well with the beginning scene at MIT with Iron Man realizing the weight of what happened and his culpabilities in deaths, and being Pro Registration.  And the ramifications of that movie stretched ALL THE WAY through Endgame.  If you stretched it out where Superman spares zod multiple times and he keeps coming back and causing deaths and he realizes he has no choice but to snap his neck and end it, it has more of a heft to it.  Rewatch the Zod death scene... all Supes had to do was put his right hand over Zod's eyes and... that's it.  Threat is over.  No need to kill him.  Let's be realistic, ZS did it because he thought it would be cool/get attention.  It doesn't fit the narrative, it was never picked up again, it didn't do anything.  I mean, they didn't even have a scene where he is talking to Lois about how much he regretted it or how he can't sleep at night or something.  Nope, just dropped it.  Meanwhile, marvel is STILL dealing with the ramifications of those who agree with Thanos.  Again, all for changes, where it IMPROVES the story.  Like I said, I ADORE Damien Lindolloff's continuation of Watchman.  He made LOADS of changes.  Almost all of them for the better.  MCU has made tons of changes, most of them have improved the characters and stories (or made them make more sense, because within the realm of the story you're trying to tell, it's kinda hard to have a giant global entity.  

Did we watch the same movie where Zod made it clear he was going to destroy all of Earth as revenge for Kal-El disrupting his World Engine transformation? It wasn't as simple a 'Super covering Zod's eyes'.

"And every action I take - no matter how violent and how cruel - is for the greater good of my people!"

 

[Larryw7]

Bottom line: Supes had to kill Zod or millions of innocent people would be killed. There was no jail that could hold him. The day MOS was released I read my copy of Superman 2 from 1939. Clark is throwing people off buildings and into the sky left and right. Why? Because the bad guys were trying to start a massive war that would kill millions. Superman saves lives. That's what he's about. As Action 1 says, he's "the champion of the oppressed". 

[Bosco685]

Wait. I rewatched those videos and change my mind now.

Kal-El should have used a super-tickle move on Zod, driving him toward extensive giggles and laughs and they dance off into the sunset holding hands. Done!

Edited July 25, 2022 by Bosco685

[Zonker]

Yeah, I think central to the concept of Superman as he has existed for most of his published history is this is what makes him Superman: he is always able to  find a better way.  Or, as in Alan Moore's "final Superman story" if he cannot find a better way, then he has to give up his powers and retire, as he can no longer be Superman.

Sure, it is possible to argue that the greater good requires Superman continue to always be around to kill the baddest of the bad guys.  Or that the blood of the Joker's victims is on the Batman's hands because he never killed the Joker when he had the chance.  I'm just saying that accepting those arguments leads you to different characters than Superman and Batman.  Maybe Apollo and Midnighter, from what used to be the Wildstorm universe. 

[Bosco685]

On 7/25/2022 at 5:59 PM, Zonker said:

Yeah, I think central to the concept of Superman as he has existed for most of his published history is this is what makes him Superman: he is always able to  find a better way.  Or, as in Alan Moore's "final Superman story" if he cannot find a better way, then he has to give up his powers and retire, as he can no longer be Superman.

Sure, it is possible to argue that the greater good requires Superman continue to always be around to kill the baddest of the bad guys.  Or that the blood of the Joker's victims is on the Batman's hands because he never killed the Joker when he had the chance.  I'm just saying that accepting those arguments leads you to different characters than Superman and Batman.  Maybe Apollo and Midnighter, from what used to be the Wildstorm universe. 

It is a repeat of multiple conversations concerning the many times Superman has had to kill a super being due to their murderous intent. Including Alan Moore with Mister Mxyzptlk and John Byrne with Zod and Zaora.

Trying to theorize, no matter how calm and logical, "My Superman doesn't kill" ignores the impact of those unique stories. They exist. They conveyed how committed Superman is to protecting the innocent and weak, and he may do it again.

[AnthonyTheAbyss]

Whether you like the MCU or not, they stomped on the DCEU during SDCC.  Marvel basically locked down everything until 2025.  I don't even know how the DCEU will compete after that once the X-Men start up.

I'm not a Marvel or DC person...I just am happy to see comic book movies being successful.  But if the DCEU isn't going to keep Marvel in check (competition for them to keep striving) it is bad for everybody.  They need another Zack Snyder Cut Justice League like movie!

 

***Can't just keep relying on Batman

[Zonker]

On 7/25/2022 at 6:11 PM, Bosco685 said:

It is a repeat of multiple conversations concerning the many times Superman has had to kill a super being due to their murderous intent. Including Alan Moore with Mister Mxyzptlk and John Byrne with Zod and Zaora.

Trying to theorize, no matter how calm and logical, "My Superman doesn't kill" ignores the impact of those unique stories. They exist. They conveyed how committed Superman is to protecting the innocent and weak, and he may do it again.

Yes, I know it's all been said before, but for the record:

1) When Alan Moore had Superman kill Mister Mxyzptlk, that was the end of his career, he gave up his powers and retired, as he knew he could no longer be Superman. So, no, he could never do it again.

2) When John Byrne had Superman kill the Phantom Zone villains, I didn't like that either.  But at least there were consequences to that action, including the 6-month space exile, and upon his return, a determination that no, he would not do that again.  As far as I know, this post-Crisis Superman never killed again (maybe the New 52 changed that, I don't know).

[Bosco685]

On 7/25/2022 at 8:37 PM, Zonker said:

Yes, I know it's all been said before, but for the record:

1) When Alan Moore had Superman kill Mister Mxyzptlk, that was the end of his career, he gave up his powers and retired, as he knew he could no longer be Superman. So, no, he could never do it again.

2) When John Byrne had Superman kill the Phantom Zone villains, I didn't like that either.  But at least there were consequences to that action, including the 6-month space exile, and upon his return, a determination that no, he would not do that again.  As far as I know, this post-Crisis Superman never killed again (maybe the New 52 changed that, I don't know).

We could play the "But he paid for killing in comics" dismissals with realizations Superman has killed in comic books. It doesn't distract from the fact he committed such acts.

Even in Injustice when Joker drugs Superman leading to his killing Lois as he sees her as Doomsday triggering a nuclear strike on Metropolis taking countless citizens dead, he kills Joker. This twist leads to his dark descent into tyrany.

In the case of Man of Steel, his killing Zod was Kal-El conveying how he was committed to the weak and innocent over Krypton blind loyalty. Even with the impact on his own personal loss of any connection to his home planet.

Self-sacrifice. Very Superman-like!

[bentbryan]

I’m sure you guys can answer this question. What’s the deal when Supes rescues Lois in BvS? I figured the guy was dead after getting driven thru multiple concrete block walls but apparently Clark later refers to it and says no one died? I must have missed that part.  

 

 

[▫️]

On 7/26/2022 at 3:20 AM, AnthonyTheAbyss said:

Whether you like the MCU or not, they stomped on the DCEU during SDCC. 

I sure hope so after the smashing job they did with Phase 4.