Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBO Max (3/18/21) 4 4

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:53 AM, jaybuck43 said:

...(No we don’t need ANOTHER crime ally shooting scene, o wait we got that for absolutely no reason, never mind) But if he’s supposed to be The Dark Knight Returns…. Give me that story. Show me a broken and beaten batman who has to strap on the mask one last time to take down the evil marauding alien. Get me there. Show what’s happening ON SCREEN. Show me him tormented by the death of his mother. How even though he’s spent decades fighting crime, he still hasn’t avenged his mothers death. So that when he saves someone else’s mother, when he swoops in in the Nick of time and makes one less “child” scared and alone, and it just so happens her name is also Martha, we get that catharsis. We feel, with the character, that they have done it. Closure.  Give me pacing, character development, motivation. Get me invested in the character. The only snyderverse film that got it right (which wasn’t directed by Snyder) was Wonder Woman. And some will argue that that’s because it was a shot for shot gender swap remake of captain America the first soldier.

 

I can understand why people like Snyders work. It’s flashy. It has great fight choreography. Nothing wrong with that. But (at least in my opinion) his dc films have missed story telling, heart, and depth. They feel rushed, like the director is saying, look I want to get to the money shot so let’s go let’s go. I’m not saying the marvel movies are perfect, they have and deserve criticism as well.

That is, again, false. It was shown because it's important to the conflict resolution of the title, Batman v Superman. You are given that story. He puts the cowl back on to take on someone he sees as a foe who is capable of destroying the entire human race. He's not wrong about Superman's capabilities, only his intentions. He (Batman) is the bad guy, you're not supposed to like Batman in BvS. Much like Thanos, you're not supposed to get his entire backstory, either. Visiting his mother's grave site in a nightmare showed his ongoing grief over his mom, and how the bat still haunts him as a reminder of what that trauma turned him into. Shown, not told. MoS and BvS both got it right.

People enjoy Snyder's work because his writers tend to tell compelling stories without levity at every turn. Tons of people enjoy media that takes material seriously.

[Bosco685]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:08 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

People enjoy Snyder's work because his writers tend to tell compelling stories without levity at every turn. Tons of people enjoy media that takes material seriously.

But imagine if Bruce had tossed out to Clark in the heat of their BVS battle, "I dropped a deuce in your apartment tub!" The billions this would have made.

Missed opportunities! 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Bosco685

[jaybuck43]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:08 AM, D84 said:

Please, share your shot for shot breakdown of both films.

They both take place during world wars and are origin stories, but "shot for shot remake" is intense hyperbole.

There is no scene in Captain America: the First Avenger similar to the no man's land sequence in Wonder Woman.

There is no sequence in Wonder Woman where she is paraded around as a marketing gimic for the military.

There are more examples, but I think I've proven my point.

I didn’t say I thought that, like I said, I enjoyed Wonder Woman, I’m saying other people have called it that (it takes like 5 seconds to google it)

[jaybuck43]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:08 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

That is, again, false. It was shown because it's important to the conflict resolution of the title, Batman v Superman. You are given that story. He puts the cowl back on to take on someone he sees as a foe who is capable of destroying the entire human race. He's not wrong about Superman's capabilities, only his intentions. He (Batman) is the bad guy, you're not supposed to like Batman in BvS. Much like Thanos, you're not supposed to get his entire backstory, either. Visiting his mother's grave site in a nightmare showed his ongoing grief over his mom, and how the bat still haunts him as a reminder of what that trauma turned him into. Shown, not told. MoS and BvS both got it right.

People enjoy Snyder's work because his writers tend to tell compelling stories without levity at every turn. Tons of people enjoy media that takes material seriously.

Ugh, you’re really going to make me rewatch these films so I can properly dissect them? Fine, give me a few days.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:11 AM, Bosco685 said:

But imagine is Bruce had tossed out to Clark in the heat of their BVS battle, "I dropped a deuce in your apartment tub!" The billions this would have made.

Missed opportunities! 

Funny, however, I don't want this to be about Marvel vs DC. All movies deserve to be judged on their own merits, not as comparisons to anything else. If one must bring up the MCU to disparage the DCEU, then they're inherently biased.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:32 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Ugh, you’re really going to make me rewatch these films so I can properly dissect them? Fine, give me a few days.

Haha, I won't make you do anything. I'm just seeing some flaws in some of your criticisms, and I don't think that you're using your memory to analyze these movies appropriately.

If you go into DCEU films with the intent on comparing them to the MCU, then of course you're not going to like them. They're a different animal. The MCU characters are typically humans who have to find their way to fit in a world with newfound power. DC/EU characters are gods looking to find their place among men.

It shouldn't need to be said, but: It's okay to not like MoS, BvS, etc etc etc. You don't have to justify your dislike to us, but if you choose to, the logic must fit. I have agreed that I would prefer Jon's death to be of natural causes, as I think it sends a better message, and I think that it fits Superman's story better. However, I would not say that the way his death was written 'did not make sense', as it does make sense in the context of that 1 story.

You have brought up how the Infinity Saga spanned 22 or so movies, but using that against the DCEU which was only intended to be a 5-part saga which then was going to branch out? It's unfair. They're not supposed to mimic the MCU. That would have been inherently boring to myself and I am sure many (if not most) others.

If you do choose to re-watch these movies, I hope you do so refreshingly and I hope that you end up liking them more than you seem to right now. Many people have re-watched them and changed their minds over the past 6-9 (giggity) years. If not, I expect your criticisms to be bolstered with information that we can relate to.

[D84]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:29 AM, jaybuck43 said:

I didn’t say I thought that, like I said, I enjoyed Wonder Woman, I’m saying other people have called it that (it takes like 5 seconds to google it)

You did say that. Reread your post.

[Bosco685]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:33 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Funny, however, I don't want this to be about Marvel vs DC. All movies deserve to be judged on their own merits, not as comparisons to anything else. If one must bring up the MCU to disparage the DCEU, then they're inherently biased.

Agreed!

Unfortunately, this is what leads to excessive negativity when some want DC to do exactly like the MCU. Yet what worked for the MCU may not work so well with the DC stories. So it would be DC Light, without the darker storyline influences.

I want to enjoy Marvel Studios, WB-D/DC, Sony and even legacy Fox films without this forced comparison which leaves you feeling confused how folks want the same thing each time.

[jaybuck43]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:45 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Haha, I won't make you do anything. I'm just seeing some flaws in some of your criticisms, and I don't think that you're using your memory to analyze these movies appropriately.

If you go into DCEU films with the intent on comparing them to the MCU, then of course you're not going to like them. They're a different animal. The MCU characters are typically humans who have to find their way to fit in a world with newfound power. DC/EU characters are gods looking to find their place among men.

It shouldn't need to be said, but: It's okay to not like MoS, BvS, etc etc etc. You don't have to justify your dislike to us, but if you choose to, the logic must fit. I have agreed that I would prefer Jon's death to be of natural causes, as I think it sends a better message, and I think that it fits Superman's story better. However, I would not say that the way his death was written 'did not make sense', as it does make sense in the context of that 1 story.

You have brought up how the Infinity Saga spanned 22 or so movies, but using that against the DCEU which was only intended to be a 5-part saga which then was going to branch out? It's unfair. They're not supposed to mimic the MCU. That would have been inherently boring to myself and I am sure many (if not most) others.

If you do choose to re-watch these movies, I hope you do so refreshingly and I hope that you end up liking them more than you seem to right now. Many people have re-watched them and changed their minds over the past 6-9 (giggity) years. If not, I expect your criticisms to be bolstered with information that we can relate to.

Jor-el has just sent Kal into space.  I will admit, I thought then, and think now that was a Kick Butt 20 minute or so sequence.  And Russel Crow was great as Jor-el.  I seem to recall there being talk of a prequil with him in the early days of krypton.  A shame it was never made.  

No, my point in discussing the two is simply to point out the time span differential and why (in my opinion) one worked, and the other didn't.  I'm not looking to compare Marvel vs DC, "O it should have had more jokes, or been lighter" etc.  No I look at the films entirely in their own universe.  (comparing DC to DC and Marvel to Marvel).  The complaint i have is ok movie 1 is reboot of superman... cool.  New Superman.  Good beginning (though you will hear about my issues with it later this afternoon after this rewatch)  (Real quick... How the F did kryptonite make it to earth?  Superman/Kal-El took months/years to reach earth using Phantom drives (I assumed the equivalent of light speed or faster than light travel) Originally the idea was the planet explodes as the rocket is launched and it follows his rocket to earth, towed behind in its wake.  But here the rocket is already deep into space on its way to earth days before the planet explodes.  So... even if it traveled for 50 years (though clearly its been less time between Kal landing on earth and MoS/BvS) its only traveling at the speed it was projected into space.  But... that's clearly going to be SIGNIFICANTLY slower than Kal's phantom drive.)  But Movie two we've already jumped to the "main coarse" of having Batman and superman fight one another (without even introducing Batman into the "verse" yet.  It's just "ok heres batman, FIGHT".  That's the point I'm trying to make.  O well, back to Man of Steel I guess.  

[jaybuck43]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:48 AM, D84 said:

You did say that. Reread your post.

Quote

The only snyderverse film that got it right (which wasn’t directed by Snyder) was Wonder Woman. And some will argue that that’s because it was a shot for shot gender swap remake of captain America the first soldier.

"And some will argue" is not including me...

[D84]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:10 AM, jaybuck43 said:

"And some will argue" is not including me...

But you use it to prove a point, so you are saying it, but not taking responsibility for saying it.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:08 AM, jaybuck43 said:

No, my point in discussing the two is simply to point out the time span differential and why (in my opinion) one worked, and the other didn't.  I'm not looking to compare Marvel vs DC, "O it should have had more jokes, or been lighter" etc.  No I look at the films entirely in their own universe.  (comparing DC to DC and Marvel to Marvel).  The complaint i have is ok movie 1 is reboot of superman... cool.  New Superman.  Good beginning (though you will hear about my issues with it later this afternoon after this rewatch)  (Real quick... How the F did kryptonite make it to earth?  Superman/Kal-El took months/years to reach earth using Phantom drives (I assumed the equivalent of light speed or faster than light travel) Originally the idea was the planet explodes as the rocket is launched and it follows his rocket to earth, towed behind in its wake.  But here the rocket is already deep into space on its way to earth days before the planet explodes.  So... even if it traveled for 50 years (though clearly its been less time between Kal landing on earth and MoS/BvS) its only traveling at the speed it was projected into space.  But... that's clearly going to be SIGNIFICANTLY slower than Kal's phantom drive.)  But Movie two we've already jumped to the "main coarse" of having Batman and superman fight one another (without even introducing Batman into the "verse" yet.  It's just "ok heres batman, FIGHT".  That's the point I'm trying to make.  O well, back to Man of Steel I guess.  

The DCEU hasn't been a mess because of MoS or BvS, though, that's all WB's doing. Without a separate studio for DC, and without a Kevin Feige-type to manage a large cinematic universe, it has basically crumbled under 'leadership' that doesn't understand anything about CUs or comic book properties. Once Zack Snyder left (the pseudo-Feige type, despite not signing up for that role), there was no one with a vision or passion for the medium.

DCEU's kryptonite is a mineral formation caused by the World Engine's impact on Earth's crust. One could assume that this is why the "old colonial outposts" referenced by Zod did not survive.

[Bosco685]

This is interesting, as Scott Mendelson hates Zack Snyder's Justice League because he got called out by Snyder for misrepresenting the content length.

So to land anything positive from Mendelson is shocking. Even if briefly glossed over.

 

Zack Snyder's Justice League #3 on the VUDU purchase list mixed in to all the new content offered right now.

[jaybuck43]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:18 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

The DCEU hasn't been a mess because of MoS or BvS, though, that's all WB's doing. Without a separate studio for DC, and without a Kevin Feige-type to manage a large cinematic universe, it has basically crumbled under 'leadership' that doesn't understand anything about CUs or comic book properties. Once Zack Snyder left (the pseudo-Feige type, despite not signing up for that role), there was no one with a vision or passion for the medium.

DCEU's kryptonite is a mineral formation caused by the World Engine's impact on Earth's crust. One could assume that this is why the "old colonial outposts" referenced by Zod did not survive.

Like I said, I'm not sure if Snyder is responsible for that or the studio.  Did the studio call Snyder and say "for the next film, we want you to have Batman fight Superman" or did Snyder hand in a -script to WB and say "Here's my idea, Batman fights Superman".  Also, Snyder "left" after MoS, BvS, and JL were all done (I mean I know JL wasn't, but he shot it, was editing it, and dealing with the final cut etc. )  So it's not like the CU didn't have "any" direction.  Snyder had plotted to what he wanted to do.

Thanks for the Kryptonite explanation, that makes more sense (Wasn't it Jor-El who mentioned the old colonial outposts first? and then Zod again when he was searching for the remainders)  Another thing that makes no sense... Kal has been on the planet for 33 years, drinking in the sun for that time.  Heck, his krptonian biology is so not developed, that he almost dies when he gets to the ship.  So, as Jor-El said, his cells would drink in the sun and he'd be a god.  Zod and his crew are there for a few days?  How the heck can they go toe to toe with someone who has been gaining strength from the sun for decades.  Even more curious, the atmosphere of the ship weakens Kal immediately.  If he's "as weak as a human" then so are all of the Kryptonians.  Again, as to pacing issues.  It took YEARS being on earth for Kal to develop his powers.  He struggles to control them.  He can't even fly until he meets Jor-El, and even then he struggles.  They get to earth and suddenly it's so equal that Supes has no choice but to kill Zod...

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:19 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Like I said, I'm not sure if Snyder is responsible for that or the studio.  Did the studio call Snyder and say "for the next film, we want you to have Batman fight Superman" or did Snyder hand in a --script to WB and say "Here's my idea, Batman fights Superman".  Also, Snyder "left" after MoS, BvS, and JL were all done (I mean I know JL wasn't, but he shot it, was editing it, and dealing with the final cut etc. )  So it's not like the CU didn't have "any" direction.  Snyder had plotted to what he wanted to do.

Thanks for the Kryptonite explanation, that makes more sense (Wasn't it Jor-El who mentioned the old colonial outposts first? and then Zod again when he was searching for the remainders)  Another thing that makes no sense... Kal has been on the planet for 33 years, drinking in the sun for that time.  Heck, his krptonian biology is so not developed, that he almost dies when he gets to the ship.  So, as Jor-El said, his cells would drink in the sun and he'd be a god.  Zod and his crew are there for a few days?  How the heck can they go toe to toe with someone who has been gaining strength from the sun for decades.  Even more curious, the atmosphere of the ship weakens Kal immediately.  If he's "as weak as a human" then so are all of the Kryptonians.  Again, as to pacing issues.  It took YEARS being on earth for Kal to develop his powers.  He struggles to control them.  He can't even fly until he meets Jor-El, and even then he struggles.  They get to earth and suddenly it's so equal that Supes has no choice but to kill Zod...

Snyder is the kind of director who works with people rather than people working for him. So, when discussing the MoS sequel in brainstorming, Batman was casually brought-up. Considering that WB wanted to make BvS for about a decade prior, once he was brought up they wouldn't have it any other way. My understanding is that Goyer had already been working on the -script for years. Once Affleck was cast as Batman, Terrio was brought in to change things, such as Batman not branding Luthor at the end. Yes, Snyder had a vision. As I had mentioned before, he was to direct a 5-film saga and then directors would come in to start spinoffs for The Flash, Aquaman, etc. After Snyder left - since he was the only one with a plan - everything began to crumble. While the studio says/said that JL is canon, directors have come out to say that ZSJL is canon to their movies. I think you can imagine how poorly the MCU would have lifted-off had Favreau left Iron Man 2 and there was no Kevin Feige above him.

I think you're right, that Jor-El did mention the outposts first. Zod mentioning them to Kal-El when he was aboard the ship unconscious is my most vivid memory of the reference, though. You have to remember that Superman is fighting soldiers, and he himself has never fought a single being before. He got double-teamed in Smallville, and then Zod removed his suit to expose himself directly to the sun. You make a fair point that there should be strength differences, but without a decent 3rd act this wouldn't be a summer blockbuster. The Kryptonians were as weak as humans; They were born and raised under the conditions of the ship they arrived in. The guy who drew Superman's blood felt his body changing when Jor-El changed the ship's atmospherics. Unless I'm missing something, Superman only struggled with his senses, not his raw strength. He even had full control of laser-vision when he was a child, prior to developing his super-hearing. I concede that I don't like the line when Superman tells Zod how to hone them, but I haven't considered an alternative to manufacturing a Superman vs Strong Zod fight.

[jaybuck43]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:40 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Snyder is the kind of director who works with people rather than people working for him. So, when discussing the MoS sequel in brainstorming, Batman was casually brought-up. Considering that WB wanted to make BvS for about a decade prior, once he was brought up they wouldn't have it any other way. My understanding is that Goyer had already been working on the --script for years. Once Affleck was cast as Batman, Terrio was brought in to change things, such as Batman not branding Luthor at the end. Yes, Snyder had a vision. As I had mentioned before, he was to direct a 5-film saga and then directors would come in to start spinoffs for The Flash, Aquaman, etc. After Snyder left - since he was the only one with a plan - everything began to crumble. While the studio says/said that JL is canon, directors have come out to say that ZSJL is canon to their movies. I think you can imagine how poorly the MCU would have lifted-off had Favreau left Iron Man 2 and there was no Kevin Feige above him.

I think you're right, that Jor-El did mention the outposts first. Zod mentioning them to Kal-El when he was aboard the ship unconscious is my most vivid memory of the reference, though. You have to remember that Superman is fighting soldiers, and he himself has never fought a single being before. He got double-teamed in Smallville, and then Zod removed his suit to expose himself directly to the sun. You make a fair point that there should be strength differences, but without a decent 3rd act this wouldn't be a summer blockbuster. The Kryptonians were as weak as humans; They were born and raised under the conditions of the ship they arrived in. The guy who drew Superman's blood felt his body changing when Jor-El changed the ship's atmospherics. Unless I'm missing something, Superman only struggled with his senses, not his raw strength. He even had full control of laser-vision when he was a child, prior to developing his super-hearing. I concede that I don't like the line when Superman tells Zod how to hone them, but I haven't considered an alternative to manufacturing a Superman vs Strong Zod fight.

Yes, he had control of his heat vision as a child (he used it to heat the doorknob when he was hiding in the closet as a kid).  And you can argue that he and the other kryptonians gain their powers immediately but he SHOULD have better control over them along with more of them given the amount of time his cells have been saturated by the sun.  The "they're soldiers" argument doesn't hold water though.  They're military soldiers, they never had any powers on Krypton.  Sure, they are eugenically chosen to be the best soldiers on Krypton, I don't disagree with that might give them an advantage in some regards (maybe they're better at harnessing their senses, maybe they're more restrained) but they're the equivalent of Navy Seals/Army Rangers, the best "regular" military fighters.

The alternative is... you don't have it.  Your end of the third act is Superman defeats the world engine, they reverse the damage it did, he blows up the kryptonian ship and he captures the kryptonians.  Great, good ending.  Introduces the kyptonian villains, who can come back LATER.  I mean even Donner didn't use Zod right away, he brought them back for Superman 2.  

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:53 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Yes, he had control of his heat vision as a child (he used it to heat the doorknob when he was hiding in the closet as a kid).  And you can argue that he and the other kryptonians gain their powers immediately but he SHOULD have better control over them along with more of them given the amount of time his cells have been saturated by the sun.  The "they're soldiers" argument doesn't hold water though.  They're military soldiers, they never had any powers on Krypton.  Sure, they are eugenically chosen to be the best soldiers on Krypton, I don't disagree with that might give them an advantage in some regards (maybe they're better at harnessing their senses, maybe they're more restrained) but they're the equivalent of Navy Seals/Army Rangers, the best "regular" military fighters.

The alternative is... you don't have it.  Your end of the third act is Superman defeats the world engine, they reverse the damage it did, he blows up the kryptonian ship and he captures the kryptonians.  Great, good ending.  Introduces the kyptonian villains, who can come back LATER.  I mean even Donner didn't use Zod right away, he brought them back for Superman 2.  

We don't know exactly what kind of training Kryptonian military goes through. We're not really told what kind of power-scaling occurs over time, either, and Superman gets super-powered/OP in both BvS and ZSJL when basking in the sun very briefly. Yes, canon after MoS, but I think an appropriate reference here.

That's anti-climactic. I dare you to pretend that Zod got sucked into the Phantom Zone and skip everything between his kiss with Lois and taking down the military drone. LMK what you think after that. Edit: How is he capturing Kryptonians and how are they coming back?

Edited July 26, 2022 by theCapraAegagrus

[jaybuck43]

On 7/26/2022 at 12:03 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

We don't know exactly what kind of training Kryptonian military goes through. We're not really told what kind of power-scaling occurs over time, either, and Superman gets super-powered/OP in both BvS and ZSJL when basking in the sun very briefly. Yes, canon after MoS, but I think an appropriate reference here.

That's anti-climactic. I dare you to pretend that Zod got sucked into the Phantom Zone and skip everything between his kiss with Lois and taking down the military drone. LMK what you think after that. Edit: How is he capturing Kryptonians and how are they coming back?

The Kryptonians are already captured, they're in the phantom zone after Christopher Maloni (I cant remember his characters name) pilots the C-130 into the Kryptonian ship.  He doesn't need to get sucked into the phantom zone.  He kisses Lois, finds Zod kneeling on the ground giving his soliloquy about his people being gone and he no longer having a reason to be, Zod lunges at Supes, Supes backhands him away (demonstrating that he is NOT a threat) and knocks him unconscious.  Smash cut to Zod in restraints, in a room with Red Solar Lamps swearing his revenge at Kal as he walks away.  As he's flying home, he spots the drone trying to track where he's going, takes it out, and has the end scene ("I think he's cute") then cut to him on the farm, thinking of Jonathan, and working at the Daily Planet.  It's not anti-climactic, you already had the climax with the big world changer machine and the fights there etc. Plus, this way, it demonstrates that Kal has grown, he's reached the ground Jonathon wanted for him, to be "ready".  And... it brings back Zod as an interesting threat for later (including the idea of him and Lex teaming up, or having it that Zod is pissed that Superman stopped him so he escapes and uses the Kryptonian genesis pods to become Doomsday, because at least HE knows he can do that.  Which also adds depth to the encounter when Superman and "Doomsday" meet.    So movie is over, and honestly, it still holds up.  Yes, there are issues with it (not least of which I've discussed already) but it's shot beautifully, the fight sequences are good, and it serves as a good "reboot".  I think the major mistake, and I'm sure we will get to it, is when I sit down to watch BvS and we jump into a story that isn't ready to be told.  But I'll get there  

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/26/2022 at 12:20 PM, jaybuck43 said:

The Kryptonians are already captured, they're in the phantom zone after Christopher Maloni (I cant remember his characters name) pilots the C-130 into the Kryptonian ship.  He doesn't need to get sucked into the phantom zone.  He kisses Lois, finds Zod kneeling on the ground giving his soliloquy about his people being gone and he no longer having a reason to be, Zod lunges at Supes, Supes backhands him away (demonstrating that he is NOT a threat) and knocks him unconscious.  Smash cut to Zod in restraints, in a room with Red Solar Lamps swearing his revenge at Kal as he walks away.  As he's flying home, he spots the drone trying to track where he's going, takes it out, and has the end scene ("I think he's cute") then cut to him on the farm, thinking of Jonathan, and working at the Daily Planet.  It's not anti-climactic, you already had the climax with the big world changer machine and the fights there etc. Plus, this way, it demonstrates that Kal has grown, he's reached the ground Jonathon wanted for him, to be "ready".  And... it brings back Zod as an interesting threat for later (including the idea of him and Lex teaming up, or having it that Zod is pissed that Superman stopped him so he escapes and uses the Kryptonian genesis pods to become Doomsday, because at least HE knows he can do that.  Which also adds depth to the encounter when Superman and "Doomsday" meet.    So movie is over, and honestly, it still holds up.  Yes, there are issues with it (not least of which I've discussed already) but it's shot beautifully, the fight sequences are good, and it serves as a good "reboot".  I think the major mistake, and I'm sure we will get to it, is when I sit down to watch BvS and we jump into a story that isn't ready to be told.  But I'll get there  

I'm just going to say that these ideas don't fit the internal logic for Man of Steel. You're practically rewriting the entire thing, and that doesn't lead to an engaging discussion. You have to write-in how he knows about Red Solar Lamps. How they work, how to make them, etc. Then, you have a villain that isn't a threat, so Superman has no real obstacle to overcome. Zod wouldn't want to become Doomsday, either, as he would want to search the universe for another World Engine and go through the same trek until he does die (prolonging the inevitable).

I'm going to say it: Repeat villains are trash, so I loathe the idea you wrote for Zod, and I'm sure that most others would agree.

[Bosco685]

On 7/26/2022 at 11:19 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Like I said, I'm not sure if Snyder is responsible for that or the studio.  Did the studio call Snyder and say "for the next film, we want you to have Batman fight Superman" or did Snyder hand in a ---script to WB and say "Here's my idea, Batman fights Superman".  Also, Snyder "left" after MoS, BvS, and JL were all done (I mean I know JL wasn't, but he shot it, was editing it, and dealing with the final cut etc. )  So it's not like the CU didn't have "any" direction.  Snyder had plotted to what he wanted to do.

Thanks for the Kryptonite explanation, that makes more sense (Wasn't it Jor-El who mentioned the old colonial outposts first? and then Zod again when he was searching for the remainders)  Another thing that makes no sense... Kal has been on the planet for 33 years, drinking in the sun for that time.  Heck, his krptonian biology is so not developed, that he almost dies when he gets to the ship.  So, as Jor-El said, his cells would drink in the sun and he'd be a god.  Zod and his crew are there for a few days?  How the heck can they go toe to toe with someone who has been gaining strength from the sun for decades.  Even more curious, the atmosphere of the ship weakens Kal immediately.  If he's "as weak as a human" then so are all of the Kryptonians.  Again, as to pacing issues.  It took YEARS being on earth for Kal to develop his powers.  He struggles to control them.  He can't even fly until he meets Jor-El, and even then he struggles.  They get to earth and suddenly it's so equal that Supes has no choice but to kill Zod...

 

On 7/26/2022 at 11:53 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Yes, he had control of his heat vision as a child (he used it to heat the doorknob when he was hiding in the closet as a kid).  And you can argue that he and the other kryptonians gain their powers immediately but he SHOULD have better control over them along with more of them given the amount of time his cells have been saturated by the sun.  The "they're soldiers" argument doesn't hold water though.  They're military soldiers, they never had any powers on Krypton.  Sure, they are eugenically chosen to be the best soldiers on Krypton, I don't disagree with that might give them an advantage in some regards (maybe they're better at harnessing their senses, maybe they're more restrained) but they're the equivalent of Navy Seals/Army Rangers, the best "regular" military fighters.

The alternative is... you don't have it.  Your end of the third act is Superman defeats the world engine, they reverse the damage it did, he blows up the kryptonian ship and he captures the kryptonians.  Great, good ending.  Introduces the kyptonian villains, who can come back LATER.  I mean even Donner didn't use Zod right away, he brought them back for Superman 2.  

 

On 7/26/2022 at 12:20 PM, jaybuck43 said:

The Kryptonians are already captured, they're in the phantom zone after Christopher Maloni (I cant remember his characters name) pilots the C-130 into the Kryptonian ship.  He doesn't need to get sucked into the phantom zone.  He kisses Lois, finds Zod kneeling on the ground giving his soliloquy about his people being gone and he no longer having a reason to be, Zod lunges at Supes, Supes backhands him away (demonstrating that he is NOT a threat) and knocks him unconscious.  Smash cut to Zod in restraints, in a room with Red Solar Lamps swearing his revenge at Kal as he walks away.  As he's flying home, he spots the drone trying to track where he's going, takes it out, and has the end scene ("I think he's cute") then cut to him on the farm, thinking of Jonathan, and working at the Daily Planet.  It's not anti-climactic, you already had the climax with the big world changer machine and the fights there etc. Plus, this way, it demonstrates that Kal has grown, he's reached the ground Jonathon wanted for him, to be "ready".  And... it brings back Zod as an interesting threat for later (including the idea of him and Lex teaming up, or having it that Zod is pissed that Superman stopped him so he escapes and uses the Kryptonian genesis pods to become Doomsday, because at least HE knows he can do that.  Which also adds depth to the encounter when Superman and "Doomsday" meet.    So movie is over, and honestly, it still holds up.  Yes, there are issues with it (not least of which I've discussed already) but it's shot beautifully, the fight sequences are good, and it serves as a good "reboot".  I think the major mistake, and I'm sure we will get to it, is when I sit down to watch BvS and we jump into a story that isn't ready to be told.  But I'll get there  

No offense meant to you, as you didn't do anything personal to me.

But you are pretty much rethinking the entire movie flow to dislike Zack Snyder's direction. And that is clear. Even your assumption all Superman had to do is cover Zod's eyes - movie done! That is just simplifying story events to declare you have a better way of telling the stories - but not actually accurate to what was conveyed in the actual stories presented.

Did you meet Zack Snyder, and he said something to you that was offensive? I only ask as this seems more personal than a director that delivered some comic book movies.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Bosco685