Zack Snyder's JUSTICE LEAGUE on HBO Max (3/18/21) 4 4

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On 7/26/2022 at 1:41 PM, bentbryan said:

I’m sure you guys can answer this question. What’s the deal when Supes rescues Lois in BvS? I figured the guy was dead after getting driven thru multiple concrete block walls but apparently Clark later refers to it and says no one died? I must have missed that part.  

 

 

I’ve gone through a couple of *cough* concrete walls before and no big deal really. Ok fine, that dude would have been a bag of liquid but he messed with Supes girl. Funny how later he would be like, “Oh sure, that dude was good, few scratches and whatnot.. yeah..”

[Bosco685]

On 7/26/2022 at 6:41 AM, bentbryan said:

I’m sure you guys can answer this question. What’s the deal when Supes rescues Lois in BvS? I figured the guy was dead after getting driven thru multiple concrete block walls but apparently Clark later refers to it and says no one died? I must have missed that part.  

During the discussion with Lois in the bathroom, Clark is referring to all those bodies burned that the committee was accusing him of killing and burning their bodies with his heat vision.

That was the setup Lex Luthor implemented to tarnish Superman's image.

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/25/2022 at 3:13 PM, jaybuck43 said:

...I didn't like the idea of changing Pa Kent's death.  The whole concept of Pa Kent dying by a heart attack sets up the idea that with all of his powers, there are still some things he is powerless about. He's not God.  In the Donner film, it's tragic and heartbreaking.  In the MoS ridiculousness, it makes NO sense.  "Well clark you COULD have just zoomed in and saved him, and flown so fast noone saw it, or maybe just blown the tornado away with your superbreath, but no i'm just gonna shake ya off and commit suicide by Tornado."  

I agree with you that Jon dying by heart attack is better than sacrificing his life to protect his son, however, to say that, "it makes no sense" is patently false. It makes sense within the context of the story that Man of Steel is telling. There is nothing that shows the audience teenage Clark can move fast. In fact, he can't even fly until he begins testing his limits in the Arctic. He also doesn't use any strong breathing techniques until Justice League. These criticisms are vapid.

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For the record, as much as I love MOS, I did wish Pa Kent had a heart attack instead. I often wish heart attacks on people anyway. And while I am good with the neck snappin cracklin goodness at the end, I didn’t think they used the right scenario for it to occur. It seemed like a low stakes situation with a couple of lives at stake after thousands probably got taken out in collapsing buildings. I would still have had Clark kill Zod but in a different situation where there was no time to think and too many lives not to consider. But since the greatest fight scenes in comic book movie history had just taken place I am able to forgive things I didn’t like.

[Bosco685]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:34 AM, ▫️ said:

For the record, as much as I love MOS, I did wish Pa Kent had a heart attack instead. I often wish heart attacks on people anyway. And while I am good with the neck snappin cracklin goodness at the end, I didn’t think they used the right scenario for it to occur. It seemed like a low stakes situation with a couple of lives at stake after thousands probably got taken out in collapsing buildings. I would still have had Clark kill Zod but in a different situation where there was no time to think and too many lives not to consider. But since the greatest fight scenes in comic book movie history had just taken place I am able to forgive things I didn’t like.

I disagree. But I gave the right scenario.

Clark tickles Zod into giggling and letting out a loud Kryptonian fart to break the intensity. They both fall down on the floor rolling in laughter, and then dance off into the sunset holding hands.'

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/25/2022 at 5:00 PM, Zonker said:

I think it's actually different, and here's why: The Batman doesn't kill in his post-1940 appearances because he doesn't want to create any more orphans.  If he is able to restrain himself from killing the Joker or killing Joe Chill, there is no reason for him to kill a bunch of thugs willy-nilly in a warehouse or parking garage or wherever that was in BvS.  Realistic?  Um, no.  But then again he's wearing a flying rodent costume, so realism has its limits in this scenario.  Likewise Superman shouldn't kill because setting himself up as executioner with all of his other powers elevates him to godhood. Central to the premise is Superman is just a midwestern farm boy at heart, and this keeps his hubris in check. Without that, Superman devolves into Alan Moore's Miracleman, a different character altogether.  I didn't like John Byrne's take on Superman-as-executioner, but at least in the comics, Superman's remorse led to a 6-month space exile, so there were at least some consequences to his actions.  

In my opinion, you can bend these characters only so far without breaking them beyond recognition, and again in my opinion.MoS & BvS went too far.  (I liked ZSJL though!)  Maybe you feel the same way about the MCU bending the character of Thanos beyond the breaking point, I don't know....

This is another vapid criticism. "No reason"? Entirely false. Saving someone else's mom named Martha is a cathartic experience for Batman and makes him feel like he's righting a wrong. Dude was unhinged and just disillusioned.

Superman kills non-humans to save humans. The consequence of killing Zod is that he's the last of his kind. He clearly feels remorse for Zod forcing him to kill him. How many times did Zod convey that he will never stop?

The Batman in BvS is The Dark Knight Returns. Ask Frank Miller what he thinks (Hint: He recognizes that it closely respects his writing of the character). Gonna have to vehemently disagree that there's somehow something wrong with Superman in MoS, too. Jon's death is really the only thing 'wildly' different about that story.

Edited July 26, 2022 by theCapraAegagrus

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/25/2022 at 5:06 PM, jaybuck43 said:

I'm all for changes.  I'm NOT for changes that drastically change who the character is for the worse.  Turning Thanos into an "ends justify the means" concept ENHANCES the character.  Instead of him being a lovesick dope who's like "I know, I'll commit genocide to get Death to love me", you get the (overarching and long-lasting ramifications) of THANOS WAS RIGHT.  You've added depth to the character, you've created a motivation for him.  That's why people mock Snyder.  There's no build, there's no justification, there's just the "toy box method".  (A kid has a toy box full of action figures and just smashes them into one another for no reason other than he has them). With Thanos you built 20 something films to GET to that final battle.  What was the justification for Batman to fight Superman?  Or to stop the fight? o right because there moms have the same name! Guess we're best friends now  You want superman to kill someone?  FINE, I'm ok with that IF you build to that.  There are plenty of comics and movies that get that concept "right".  Robert Kirkman did it with Invincible (with Angstrom Levy basically giving Invincible no choice but to kill him).  Heck Civil War hit it well with the beginning scene at MIT with Iron Man realizing the weight of what happened and his culpabilities in deaths, and being Pro Registration.  And the ramifications of that movie stretched ALL THE WAY through Endgame.  If you stretched it out where Superman spares zod multiple times and he keeps coming back and causing deaths and he realizes he has no choice but to snap his neck and end it, it has more of a heft to it.  Rewatch the Zod death scene... all Supes had to do was put his right hand over Zod's eyes and... that's it.  Threat is over.  No need to kill him.  Let's be realistic, ZS did it because he thought it would be cool/get attention.  It doesn't fit the narrative, it was never picked up again, it didn't do anything.  I mean, they didn't even have a scene where he is talking to Lois about how much he regretted it or how he can't sleep at night or something.  Nope, just dropped it.  Meanwhile, marvel is STILL dealing with the ramifications of those who agree with Thanos.  Again, all for changes, where it IMPROVES the story.  Like I said, I ADORE Damien Lindolloff's continuation of Watchman.  He made LOADS of changes.  Almost all of them for the better.  MCU has made tons of changes, most of them have improved the characters and stories (or made them make more sense, because within the realm of the story you're trying to tell, it's kinda hard to have a giant global entity.  

This reeks of, "my opinion is right no matter how well-reinforced your opinion is". People tend to mock Snyder because they have limited emotional responses to products not being how they would have created it.

I still can't believe that people don't understand the Martha scene. It's not great, but you've conveyed a fundamental misunderstanding of the conflict-resolution.

It's shown in Man of Steel that Kryptonian laser beams hurts Kryptonians. See: The Smallville fight when Superman uses it on Faora-Ul and Nam-Ek. So, wrong, he did need to kill him. There are no prisons on Earth to hold Zod. He wanted a warrior's death. Pay attention to the movie, people.

I mean, you're even blaming Snyder for a concept that David Goyer created. He came up with it, brought it to Snyder, and they brought it to Christopher Nolan who approved the idea after Goyer wrote it on paper.

Edited July 26, 2022 by theCapraAegagrus

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On 7/26/2022 at 2:37 PM, Bosco685 said:

I disagree. But I gave the right scenario.

Clark tickles Zod into giggling and letting out a loud Kryptonian fart to break the intensity. They both fall down on the floor rolling in laughter, and then dance off into the sunset holding hands.'

Now I did say I’m good with the neck break and Zod needed to die, I just wanted a grander death I guess. Like Zod using his laser vision on the Hoover Dam or a nuclear reactor or whatever and then Supes puts the kibosh on him.

Edited July 26, 2022 by ▫️

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/25/2022 at 5:33 PM, Bosco685 said:

Wait. I rewatched those videos and change my mind now.

Kal-El should have used a super-tickle move on Zod, driving him toward extensive giggles and laughs and they dance off into the sunset holding hands. Done!

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/26/2022 at 6:41 AM, bentbryan said:

I’m sure you guys can answer this question. What’s the deal when Supes rescues Lois in BvS? I figured the guy was dead after getting driven thru multiple concrete block walls but apparently Clark later refers to it and says no one died? I must have missed that part.  

If Snyder wanted the audience to think that Superman killed the General, he would have shown it. I'm sure that Goyer/Terrio wrote that dialogue in there so that we know Superman doesn't kill humans.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:47 AM, ▫️ said:

Now I did say I’m good with the neck break and Zod needed to die, I just wanted a grander death I guess. Like Zod using his laser vision on the Hoover Dam or a nuclear reactor or whatever and then Supes puts the kibosh on him.

My only issue with your creative revision is that I think we do need to see Superman consider not killing Zod. Having to bear the weight of that thought - before the action - adds depth to Superman's emotional maturity. It shows that he doesn't consider killing as his first option. He pleas with Zod to stop and that's what makes the end fit Superman's character.

[Bosco685]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:47 AM, ▫️ said:

Now I did say I’m good with the neck break and Zod needed to die, I just wanted a grander death I guess. Like Zod using his laser vision on the Hoover Dam or a nuclear reactor or whatever and then Supes puts the kibosh on him.

I kid. 

But honestly, like you noted we had already watched the grand battle play out. The Kryptonians took it to the location of the second part of their World Engine in Metropolis. So now taking it down to a street level by demonstrating how far Zod would go even with individual families, Kal-El had to end this before what he was watching played out across the entire planet.

Kind of like in The Avengers (2012) when Loki's forces deliver an estimated $160B in damages to New York City and how does the battle finally come to its conclusion?

"If it's all the same to you - I'll have that drink now!"

 

[Bosco685]

Maybe we should add to the title of this thread "Bring Me Your Poor, Your Tired and Your Hungry - Along With All Of Your Zack Snyder Movie Questions".

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:10 AM, Bosco685 said:

Maybe we should add to the title of this thread "Bring Me Your Poor, Your Tired and Your Hungry - Along With All Of Your Zack Snyder Movie Questions".

I would rather field questions than debunk thoughtless criticisms.

Imagine if BB said, "it's stupid that Superman said he didn't kill anyone when he killed that General" instead of asking a question.

Cunningham's Law sucks. (I know, not exactly the same thing, but whatever.)

[theCapraAegagrus]

My post above was #200,000 for this sub-forum.

[Bosco685]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:21 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I would rather field questions than debunk thoughtless criticisms.

Imagine if BB said, "it's stupid that Superman said he didn't kill anyone when he killed that General" instead of asking a question.

Cunningham's Law sucks. (I know, not exactly the same thing, but whatever.)

Oh, I kid. I appreciate the questions.

It shows how the stories still have so much depth and complexity there is much more to review together. Otherwise, we go back to the old Silvermange days of "Oh yeah? My MCU rules!"

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:25 AM, Bosco685 said:

Oh, I kid. I appreciate the questions.

It shows how the stories still have so much depth and complexity there is much more to review together. Otherwise, we go back to the old Silvermange days of "Oh yeah? My MCU rules!"

No, me too. I was being serious that I would rather answer questions than deal with bad information.

[jaybuck43]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:07 AM, Bosco685 said:

I kid. 

But honestly, like you noted we had already watched the grand battle play out. The Kryptonians took it to the location of the second part of their World Engine in Metropolis. So now taking it down to a street level by demonstrating how far Zod would go even with individual families, Kal-El had to end this before what he was watching played out across the entire planet.

Kind of like in The Avengers (2012) when Loki's forces deliver an estimated $160B in damages to New York City and how does the battle finally come to its conclusion?

"If it's all the same to you - I'll have that drink now!"

 

I mean you’re so right. It’s not like Tony has ptsd from the fight. Or that the outcome directly leads to what is happening in iron man 3 and is the root cause of ultron. Or giving Loki the opportunity for significant character progression and redemption. I mean long lasting impacts, character progression, and earning a moment are generally the hallmarks of good story telling. But I guess we could have just had the hulk eat him instead for the shock impact (marvel zombies?)

I look at the film as the story (stories) they’re trying to tell. I have the MCU, 20+ films that tell a complete story. I have the DCU, 6 films that tell an incomplete story. Now that may be because of Snyder or that may be because of pressure from the studio, I have no idea. What I know is, the movies (just the movies) do not tell the story that some claim it’s trying to tell. This Batman isn’t properly introduced. (No we don’t need ANOTHER crime ally shooting scene, o wait we got that for absolutely no reason, never mind) But if he’s supposed to be The Dark Knight Returns…. Give me that story. Show me a broken and beaten batman who has to strap on the mask one last time to take down the evil marauding alien. Get me there. Show what’s happening ON SCREEN. Show me him tormented by the death of his mother. How even though he’s spent decades fighting crime, he still hasn’t avenged his mothers death. So that when he saves someone else’s mother, when he swoops in in the Nick of time and makes one less “child” scared and alone, and it just so happens her name is also Martha, we get that catharsis. We feel, with the character, that they have done it. Closure.  Give me pacing, character development, motivation. Get me invested in the character. The only snyderverse film that got it right (which wasn’t directed by Snyder) was Wonder Woman. And some will argue that that’s because it was a shot for shot gender swap remake of captain America the first soldier. 
 

I can understand why people like Snyders work. It’s flashy. It has great fight choreography. Nothing wrong with that. But (at least in my opinion) his dc films have missed story telling, heart, and depth. They feel rushed, like the director is saying, look I want to get to the money shot so let’s go let’s go. I’m not saying the marvel movies are perfect, they have and deserve criticism as well. 

[Bosco685]

On 7/26/2022 at 8:53 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Spoiler

I mean you’re so right. It’s not like Tony has ptsd from the fight. Or that the outcome directly leads to what is happening in iron man 3 and is the root cause of ultron. Or giving Loki the opportunity for significant character progression and redemption. I mean long lasting impacts, character progression, and earning a moment are generally the hallmarks of good story telling. But I guess we could have just had the hulk eat him instead for the shock impact (marvel zombies?)

I look at the film as the story (stories) they’re trying to tell. I have the MCU, 20+ films that tell a complete story. I have the DCU, 6 films that tell an incomplete story. Now that may be because of Snyder or that may be because of pressure from the studio, I have no idea. What I know is, the movies (just the movies) do not tell the story that some claim it’s trying to tell. This Batman isn’t properly introduced. (No we don’t need ANOTHER crime ally shooting scene, o wait we got that for absolutely no reason, never mind) But if he’s supposed to be The Dark Knight Returns…. Give me that story. Show me a broken and beaten batman who has to strap on the mask one last time to take down the evil marauding alien. Get me there. Show what’s happening ON SCREEN. Show me him tormented by the death of his mother. How even though he’s spent decades fighting crime, he still hasn’t avenged his mothers death. So that when he saves someone else’s mother, when he swoops in in the Nick of time and makes one less “child” scared and alone, and it just so happens her name is also Martha, we get that catharsis. We feel, with the character, that they have done it. Closure.  Give me pacing, character development, motivation. Get me invested in the character. The only snyderverse film that got it right (which wasn’t directed by Snyder) was Wonder Woman. And some will argue that that’s because it was a shot for shot gender swap remake of captain America the first soldier. 

 

I can understand why people like Snyders work. It’s flashy. It has great fight choreography. Nothing wrong with that. But (at least in my opinion) his dc films have missed story telling, heart, and depth. They feel rushed, like the director is saying, look I want to get to the money shot so let’s go let’s go. I’m not saying the marvel movies are perfect, they have and deserve criticism as well. 

More of the same how you dislike Zack Snyder's approach, with accusations he did it to be flashy.

Yet we had Martian Manhunter hiding in plain sight, Steppenwolf and Darkseid buildup including Lex Luthor hinting to the 'bell being rung' meaning Superman's death cry awakening the Motherboxes and how the past and future influence of Darkseid would shape the world ahead.

But I get it. You want the MCU approach of jokes about Rocket dropping a turd in Peter's sleeping bag while serious events are taking place. All for the general audience larger box office. Who could blame Marvel Studios? It's even reviewer proof because of that story mold.

[D84]

On 7/26/2022 at 7:53 AM, jaybuck43 said:

The only snyderverse film that got it right (which wasn’t directed by Snyder) was Wonder Woman. And some will argue that that’s because it was a shot for shot gender swap remake of captain America the first soldier. 

Please, share your shot for shot breakdown of both films.

They both take place during world wars and are origin stories, but "shot for shot remake" is intense hyperbole.

There is no scene in Captain America: the First Avenger similar to the no man's land sequence in Wonder Woman.

There is no sequence in Wonder Woman where she is paraded around as a marketing gimic for the military.

There are more examples, but I think I've proven my point.